Human Beings Suck Ass, Basically.

[Lovecraft]

I don't know why, but I just realized this in a new and different way, though it's seemed obvious to me before. But humans, on the whole, are by nature, really just corrupt, fearful, selfish, greedy, dishonest and violent beings. We've only been around for a blip in time and it seems that there is a good chance we won't be around for too much longer due to our own efforts, and will take out a bunch of other beings in the process. Basically, we can divide the lot of us into 2 camps: 1. those that don't care and are unapolgetically trying to satisfy there every greedy impulse while riding the whole thing into hell; and 2. those that are at least trying to be better for some reason, and so are a little less destructive, yet ultimatley fail despite their intentions.

This new realization was brought on as I was pondering some of the current events going in in society and politics. I realized that it was utterly pointless to try and figure out, much less, debate anyone about WHAT should be done, when the real problem is WHO is doing it. Any system of government or social organization will be corrupt, unethical and a failure so long as the people making up that system are that way. It doesn't matter what you name it or how wonderfully elegant it was designed. There's a saying that goes, "if the wrong man uses the right means, the right means work in the wrong way". So however fair, just and harmonious we endeavor society and life to be, it will ultimately just be an expression of how basically flawed we are and thus, will devolve into the same mess of inequality, violence and discord we find ourselve in currently.

 

[herbavore]

^You perfectly articulated the source of my depression. And yet I am what is called a people lover. Individually I rarely meet someone that I cannot relate to on at least some level, and many that I like and even deeply love but collectively (and I include myself in this) we are a destructive virus; the plant and animal lover in me goes around in a constant state of guilty anguish.

 

[Foreigner]

A friend and I concluded recently that most of the people running the show are old power, very old power. When anything new and good for humanity comes along, it eventually draws the attention of old power. It then gets co-opted or absorbed. Then we return to the status quo. It has always been this way.

The only things that seem to have staying power are things that can't be totally controlled. It's why technology will never save us. Everything we create ultimately gets used to repeat the same tired old dramas. Our grasp always exceeds our reach.

 

[BehindtheShadow]

This is why I prefer animals to humans

 

[tokezu]

Any system of government or social organization will be corrupt, unethical and a failure so long as the people making up that system are that way.

This is true, but I think most of our problems come from more or less good people who are corrupted by situational forces. Of course there are some true sociopaths out there that will do horrible things all on their own, but looking at the large scale moral catastrophes, like genocides for example, you will find the people doing the killing were actually quite normal people who behaved pretty decently in different contexts. There was a study, the Stanford Prison Experiment, that showed that average students randomly assigned to be either prisoner or guard within days mirrored the horrible abuses of power that go on in real prisons. Deindividuation played a big part in that, take away everything that makes someone an individual, take aways their clothes and give them a uniform, take away their name and assign them a number, etc. and people will readily take on the role that is assigned to them and will soon be able to do things they would have never done before or vice versa letting people do things to them that they would never have before. And afterwards back in their old individual roles the people in the experiment were genuinely shocked that they had been willing to act in such a way.

Of course when these things happen in real life it's not entirely accidental, but there is often a structure behind it that fosters such developments. Most of all when authority figures simultaneously send the messages of "We really need results here!" and "We don't even want to know how you obtained these results!".

The main point being people are so vulnerable to these situational forces, because they are so caught up in assigning blame to individuals. "If somebody does something bad, that person must have been bad from the start. But I am good person so I could never do something like that." Once you realize how easily everybody can be swayed by certain situations and group pressure, you have much more of a chance resisting it. I can highly recommend a book dealing with this, The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo who was behind the Stanford Prison Experiment and was also an expert witness regarding the abuses that went on in Abu Ghraib.

 

[Xorkoth]

This is true, but I think most of our problems come from more or less good people who are corrupted by situational forces.

So true. Actually that leads me to my take on this, which is that you're right. Individual humans (some of them) are awesome, but humanity as a whole is awful. The problem has dual roots. The corrupting factor is that there are always some percentage of people who are sociopathic power mongers. They're the ones who want control and influence, it's what drives them, and they're the people most attracted to positions of power. There are also good people attracted to positions of power, but those positions or opportunities will always attract the corrupted people. And the second root of the problem is that the majority of people, especially as a mass (herd mentality) are far too easily led into basically anything by the corrupted power mongers. These two factors lead us to, again and again, commit atrocities in the false names of religion and nationalism, which is just disguised raw avarice. Eventually our civilizations always implode, whether it's because they rot from the inside out or because they're swept up and subsumed by such a society.

I really want to be believe we can climb up out of this. It's just, how do you stop a certain percentage who are simply born to dominate? How do you stop herd mentality?

I usually don't let it make me depressed though. I try to just focus on the amazing people I know, and try to do things that make me happy and that I feel like contribute something positive to the world. It doesn't do me any good to get depressed about it, but when I didn't have positive things around me in my life, I couldn't help but be depressed about it.

 

[Lovecraft]

Very good points made here. This "herd mentality" is a huge factor. In his book, "Escape From Freedom" Fromm discusses the fact that humans don't necessarily enjoy being free to think, act and behave as they determine for themselves. We are so insecure and afraid of our own wills and minds that we prefer to have others lead the way, even when that way is toward death and destruction. Thus, authoritarianism and conformity are given rise to. And, yes, the power mongers, psychopaths and narcissists will gladly fill the leadership position for us. But right behind them are the people that make up their hands and feet, the boots on the ground, so to speak; the soldiers and police force. They are the actual instrumets of the leader's immoral and psychotic vision. It's a special sub-set of the mass herd that is drawn to these positions....usually the weaker, more disenfranchised that seek to over-compensate for their sense of powerlessness. Then there is the rest of us who are just by-staners who do nothing. And actually, what is know as the "By-stander Effect" is a phenomena described in social-psychological research done around the the 1960's. In fact, a lot of the psych research around the 1960's was inspired by things like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union under Stalin in attempt to better understand how people go along with these movements.

 

[Foreigner]

I watched an interesting TED talk a few years ago whose title I wish I could remember. It was on the biological impacts of social power on the body. The more power a man or woman has, the higher their testosterone rises. People who were docile, loyal and committal suddenly find themselves having multiple office affairs and engaging in high risk behaviours. The research into this was instigated by people in therapy sessions who said they felt like their lives were out of control since getting promotions to more powerful positions.

Most mammals are the same way. The alpha is always almost always bigger, more aggressive, more domineering. It's not because they were born that way but because they become that way once they feel the rush of power. The saying absolute power corrupts absolutely has roots in biology, it turns out. The epigenetics for being the alpha switch on and then suddenly all your priorities change, including more selfishness and paranoia. Only very few humans, I feel, can handle power in a balanced way. It's why democracies, for all their flaws, are a step forward... they distribute power among many so that the corrupting influence isn't so strong. However, even that has its limits and humans gaming that system.

IMO the only way humans are going to really fundamentally change in a short period of time is through genetic engineering... finding these problematic aspects and snuffing them out. Otherwise it will take us a few million years and we certainly don't have that much time. Just because we fancy ourselves the most intelligent species does not mean we're going to stay alive. We are the only species to develop complex egos and minds, but it doesn't mean that's a "good" thing or a positive end game in evolutionary terms. It may actually be a fatal flaw that dooms us. After all, what other species is capable of destroying the entire planet due to its uncontrolled nature?

 

[SharedHalucination]

This is why I prefer animals to humans

Humans are not animals?

 

[Tubbs]

Not in the sense most people think of animals. I hate people too

 

[SharedHalucination]

"I hate people too."

Generate hate into reality and then surprised hate is reciprocated?

 

[Godel]

Do you see how this way of thinking benefits you? It gives you an out not to engage with difficulty and pain; futility is a narcotic.

 

[Tubbs]

"I hate people too."

Generate hate into reality and then surprised hate is reciprocated?

Lol I hate myself too, and I'm not surprised.

 

[herbavore]

Do you see how this way of thinking benefits you? It gives you an out not to engage with difficulty and pain; futility is a narcotic.

I think it is quite possible to allow the difficulty and pain of seeing humanity's worst side while also seeing humanity's best side--and everything messy that lies in the middle. Futility can indeed be a narcotic (a comfortable place that allows one to eschew personal responsibility) as can a rigid "Pollyanna" view of life which may give a person the exact same comfortable place. The tricky part of being human is always to try to see both probability and possibility. It is probable that our greed and over-consumption will overtax the planet for our continued existence as well as for many species large and small. But it is also possible that we will be forced by this probable scenario to evolve beyond the selfishness that has defined us as a group up to now. It is always best to work for what is possible and one's own cynicism can either act as a catalyst for that, or as a paralyzing despair. I find that one of the most challenging aspects of being aware in the modern world.

 

[swilow]

Whilst I do think humans suck ass due to our destructive, primal, power-hungry impulses, I think we also bring a lot of heretofore unseen beauty into the world. When you are filled with despair and misanthropy, have a look at some great works of art, or engineering or movements in science. Our creativity, our desire to bring something NEW into the world, has lead us down a dark path but its a path littered with all manner of beautiful and awe-inspiring things.

I've been reading a lot about clockwork recently. I love the subtlety of the mechanics, the way every part of a (mechanical) clock works together to translate kinetic force into something which tells us the position of our planet in relation to the sun. There is a creative genius there, a form of lateral thinking that I marvel at and it gives me hope. Can we use that to dig our way out of this hole? I think its our best and indeed ONLY hope.

Says a staunch misanthropic nihilist.

 

[herbavore]

I've been reading a lot about clockwork recently. I love the subtlety of the mechanics, the way every part of a (mechanical) clock works together to translate kinetic force into something which tells us the position of our planet in relation to the sun. There is a creative genius there, a form of lateral thinking that I marvel at and it gives me hope. Can we use that to dig our way out of this hole? I think its our best and indeed ONLY hope.

Have you listened to the podcast Shit Town? Clocks and clock making figure into it peripherally. It's become quite controversial but the main character in it is pretty fascinating.

 

[Xorkoth]

Whilst I do think humans suck ass due to our destructive, primal, power-hungry impulses, I think we also bring a lot of heretofore unseen beauty into the world. When you are filled with despair and misanthropy, have a look at some great works of art, or engineering or movements in science. Our creativity, our desire to bring something NEW into the world, has lead us down a dark path but its a path littered with all manner of beautiful and awe-inspiring things.

I've been reading a lot about clockwork recently. I love the subtlety of the mechanics, the way every part of a (mechanical) clock works together to translate kinetic force into something which tells us the position of our planet in relation to the sun. There is a creative genius there, a form of lateral thinking that I marvel at and it gives me hope. Can we use that to dig our way out of this hole? I think its our best and indeed ONLY hope.

Says a staunch misanthropic nihilist.

Great post. I totally agree, our species is a beautiful catastrophe. Pain can be the most potent artistic inspiration. Despite all the chaos, ultimately I like being a human because we can experience such beauty and joy.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

I don't know why, but I just realized this in a new and different way, though it's seemed obvious to me before. But humans, on the whole, are by nature, really just corrupt, fearful, selfish, greedy, dishonest and violent beings. We've only been around for a blip in time and it seems that there is a good chance we won't be around for too much longer due to our own efforts, and will take out a bunch of other beings in the process. Basically, we can divide the lot of us into 2 camps: 1. those that don't care and are unapolgetically trying to satisfy there every greedy impulse while riding the whole thing into hell; and 2. those that are at least trying to be better for some reason, and so are a little less destructive, yet ultimatley fail despite their intentions.

This new realization was brought on as I was pondering some of the current events going in in society and politics. I realized that it was utterly pointless to try and figure out, much less, debate anyone about WHAT should be done, when the real problem is WHO is doing it. Any system of government or social organization will be corrupt, unethical and a failure so long as the people making up that system are that way. It doesn't matter what you name it or how wonderfully elegant it was designed. There's a saying that goes, "if the wrong man uses the right means, the right means work in the wrong way". So however fair, just and harmonious we endeavor society and life to be, it will ultimately just be an expression of how basically flawed we are and thus, will devolve into the same mess of inequality, violence and discord we find ourselve in currently.

Right you are friend. You have become what I call "awakened". Now you have to live with it. Very few humans are going to want to hear this message so get ready to be a loner if you talk about this much. Not that being a loner is bad. I've found that there is a world of honor, integrity, compassion, and understanding in being a loner but you will feel lonely at times. I have my dogs for that and they do remarkably well as a connection to other living beings. That and long daily hikes in the woods with those dogs. Best of luck to you and be well. You're my kind of human. My tribe.

 

[Xorkoth]

Oh hey CT, nice to see you! I've been wondering where you'd gone to, and if you were okay.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

Hey brother, I was over at the shroomery posting about death anxiety and antinatalism. I got so many trolls on my back over those ideas I decided to come back here and relax and just respond to other peoples threads. Besides I like the focus of this site more and I love blue light. That's why I stare at my computer screen.

As to my general okness yeah I'm as ok as an old sick opiate addicted man is going to get.