Hello Folly
The salt concept is still a little uncertain for me. I have posted a few bits and pieces on the synth sites and will report what comes back. Its hard however cause on those sites they respond well to chemistry related chat not so well to what salt will produce what buzz type chat lol.
Hydrochloric Acid is easy to obtain for sure but so are all the other acids. Stability is an issue as you rightly point out as well as the attraction to water. The third issue is obviousley the topic in hand absorption.
Heres an interesting post on BL 2004 I found from Phase_Dancer man I wish he was still around he knew his stuff for sure.
From: CHANGING THE SALT, CHANGING THE DRUG By Glynis Davies, BSc, MRPharmS
Changing a drug from its free base or acid to a salt form is commonly done to improve its kinetics, absorption or physicochemical properties (eg, stability, hygroscopicity and flowability). Changing the salt form of a drug is a recognised means of modifying its chemical and biological properties without modifying its structure. Different salts of the same active drug are distinct products with their own chemical and biological profiles that underlie differences in their clinical efficacy and safety.
There is, as yet, no reliable way of predicting exactly what effect changing the salt form of an active drug will have on its biological activity, and the supposition that the same salt form of two related parent compounds will behave in exactly the same way may not be correct. The literature contains many examples of salt forms that differ in the rate of absorption, toxicity and stability of the active drug....
CONCLUSION
Different salt forms of a drug differ in ways that can impact on their clinical efficacy and safety. Changing the salt form varies the solubility and rate of dissolution of a drug, which in turn affects its bioavailability, pharmacokinetic profile, toxicity, and chemical stability. Early selection of an appropriate salt form in the development of a new drug will influence the timely completion of drug development and production, an important factor in accelerating the process of drug discovery.
Substitution of one salt form for another can accelerate the onset and duration of biological activity of a drug and is a recognised means of reducing its toxic potential or improving its chemical stability. It is important to remember, however, that since changing the salt can dramatically change the properties of a drug, every salt form of a drug should be considered as a new medicinal product and tested appropriately before it is released for use in clinical practice.
Full PDF:THE PHARMACEUTICAL JOURNAL (VOL 266) 2001
Heres another post from this link:
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/p...ubs-modpsy-2-3~drugtreat-pubs-modpsy-2-3-pmdm
Similarly to amphetamines and cocaine, MDMA can exist as a free base or as salts of various acids. Unlike these drugs, however, MDMA tends not to be inhaled in its free base form. This is because the methylenedioxy group raises the boiling point of the free base so high that it becomes too difficult to use in such a manner (Shulgin, 1986).
The salts are not volatile, but are quite soluble in water and thus can be administered intravenously, orally or intranasally. 'Ecstasy' tablets sold on the street do not always contain MDMA, but may contain methylenedioxyethylamphetamine (MDEA), methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA), paramethoxyamphetamine (PMA), ephedrine, ketamine or a range of other compounds (Becker, Neis, Rohrich & Zorntlein, in press; Byard, Gilbert, James & Lokan, 1998; Holden & Jackson, 1996).
MDMA is a chiral molecule, meaning that it exists in two forms, which are denoted as S(+) MDMA and R(-) MDMA. S(+) MDMA is thought to possess greater central pharmacological effects (Steele, Nichols & Yim, 1987).
Theres definitely something in it for sure. Exactly what influence the salt plays in this puzzle I am still uncertain. With a bit more poking around perhaps we can find out?
Extracted from:
An Evaluation of the Potential for
Clandestine Manufacture of
3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA)
Analogs and Homologs
"There are four principal precursors which can be used in the manufacture of MDMA and related drugs: safrole, isosafrole, piperonal and 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (PMK). Safrole is the key starting material in so far as the other three can be synthesised from it. In the original Merck patent of 1914, safrole was reacted with hydrobromic acid to form bromosafrole, which was converted to MDMA using methylamine. Many illicit syntheses start with PMK and use either the Leuckart route or various reductive aminations including the aluminium foil method. All of these methods produce racemic MDMA."
So it seems very very likely if your cookin MDMA your making Racemic at least thats what you get in the freebase before you form the salt.
So is it a balance of + or - to give it the defqon or speaker feel. Say a 70/30 mix as you propose?
It seems like a lot of extra hassle and very easy to not get the same mix on each batch. I guess it could be done on weight but you would have to be sure all the isomers are properly seperated.
Very easy to mess up. Just lots of extra hassle i just cant see it myself.
I see what you are saying about the big time Dutch lab currently defqon/qdance etc but the salt idea still seems a lot more simple and a lot more plausable in my opinion.
However, I dont know for sure and your theory could equally be correct.
"Unless you separate the isomers yourself you're going to get racemic MDMA... that's just how it works lol. I seem to have perpetrated this rumor.. I might make a thread to finally set the record straight on that.. but we'll see."
I see some evidence that if you experiment with Tartric Acid in the salt formation ie MDMA Tartrate then the isomer balance changes.
This needs a bit more research.
"TBH, I think if someone slipped me a 90s pill and said it was from this era I would probably never notice a difference. MDMA is MDMA... if it's any different, it's something other than the MDMA causing that."
"unless we can get samples from back then and start doing some controlled studies I don't think we'll ever have a 100% conclusive answer"
I would have to agree with this. Even if we had a 90s pill where would we go to get the isomer value and salt type analysed? Would need some very in depth analysis on a forensic type level in reality I doubt it would happen.
Maybe this is just a case of so much garbage around now so the ratio of good to bad pills in the 90s was better than the good to bad ratio pills of today?
Perhaps this is a more realistic way to phrase it?
However, the debate continues..
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For the record
Heres a link I foundon BL showing a few more 90s pills analysis.
http://old.lf3.cuni.cz/drogy/database/?sortcol=&sortdir=&first=0
If anyone else can find lab links for 90s pills would be really helpful addition to this topic.
Also if anyone has had first hand experience of the speaker/defqon/triforce/qdance etc would be interested to hear your experience of the actual highs.
