N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
How toxic is Mephedrone?
shoolameet
Bluelighter
^ exactly... people are always saying how in EADD people talk about how they go crazy with this shit and then end up hating it really quickly.
using in moderation is the best way to enjoy this drug and not end up hating how it makes you feel.
pofacedhoe
Bluelight Crew
people need to realise that this drug is on a par with cocaine in terms of desire to redose.
Z Y G G Y
Bluelighter
I have a suggestion as to the reason sometimes these chemicals cause serious side effects and sometimes they don't in the same person.
There has been a lot of talk about these chemicals being MAOI. I know that people who take MAOI antidepressants have to be on a strict diet otherwise they can have serious, sometimes death threatening side effects. Can this account for some of the side effects? Maybe the same person ate different things the first time and didn't get sick and then ate stuff that has a negative effects on these chemicals.
Just an idea that came to mind. I'd appreciate it if someone with more knowledge can tell me if it's complete BS or if there is some possible truth in it.
Z Y G G Y
Bluelighter
Recently, there has been some scientific literature claiming that most generalizations made using fMRI and PET scan have been pretty incorrect. This was about stuff like happiness and anger. So who knows how much more skewed drug damage analysis might be that simple psychological studies. I just read about this a few days ago. Brand new research. Don't have access to the articles at this time but if u r at a school u can get them for free.
Artificial Emotion
Bluelighter
I've been put off jumping to conclusions based on research using brain scans because of some research I heard about years ago on MDMA. I think in one study it was completely misleading - they told people areas of lower blood flow were 'holes' in the brain, which is totally incorrect I seem to recall - and in another study they stated the research was into the effects of MDMA when it was in fact methamphetamine that was the drug being tested.
pofacedhoe
Bluelight Crew
showing an area of the brain as glowing because the blood supply has increased will be the result of increased need for sugar, and other nutrients, BUT this is so vague as the brain is a series of feedback loops of excitation that go from lower areas through the cortex. this means that separate networks using the same area can be beside each other. this may show similarity between scans within one person but bloodflow is just not meaningfull enough to be used between two different brains. to many presumptions and not enough fact. its simply popular because its unintrusive and therefore not so great for damage that may appear in a small scale spread out. also why would neuron damage result in more or less blood flow?
what about ginseng?
Bob Loblaw
Bluelight Crew
FWIW, Shambles has repeatedly made comments along the lines of 'any oral dose under 250mg for him is too stimulating and unpleasant' perhaps, if you wish, try 250mg or a tad more to see if the effects are the same?
I've read most of this thread, and I've gone on some binges before without noticing and blue knees, elbows, what have you, just an increased heart rate, slight trouble catching my breath/breathing normally. I assume this means my prime health concern would be along the lines of cardiotoxicity rather than vasoconstriction?
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
Mmmm...my intuition (guess, lol) is that higher doses present effects that obscure any uncomfortable feelings. I've found that MDMA, for example, can turn physical pain into pleasure. So the negative cardio-vascular effects are likely still there w/ more.
Given that we don't know what causes these effects to vary in prominence, who's to say?
ebola
deckmunki
Bluelighter
Hi Artificial Emotion, I was going to PM you but I can't for another 40 posts, but I figured this might be worth putting out in the open for you.
I'm so sorry to interrupt you in your time of grief, but I'm going through a bad time with meph at the moment and am more than happy to talk about any shit you like if it might help.
I live a couple of miles from Sevenoaks too and went to school with a lot of people who live around here (years ago though - I'm 25-plus-a-bit).
Anyway, I don't know what to say, but if you want to talk - even if it's just to tell me to fuck off - please do.
Everyone else - apologies if this is massively inappropriate - please delete if you think it shouldn't be here 
Dm
pofacedhoe
Bluelight Crew
i've found this drug to have painkilling effects. for instance the pain of the burn from a line is gone once the rush hits. also i have found that if i pinch my skin hard it feels like touch but no pain.
noradrenaline has painkilling effects hence its importance in flight or fight danger. if you couldnt ignore a wound when in great danger you had less chance of escaping. tramadol has effects on this neurotransmitter.
adrenaline makes you feel ok when your damaged
Crankinit
Bluelighter
Ok, sorry if I've missed this, but I read through most of this thread and you guys seem to mainly be discussing the cardiotoxicity and vascular constriction.
How do you guys feel about any potential neurotoxicity? It has a similar subject effect to amphetamines and MDMA, and since (from memory) methcathinone has a similar neurotoxicity to methamphetamine, would it be reasonable to assume that 4mmc has a similar neurotoxicity to MDMA or amphetamines?
If so, do you feel that similar preventative measures to those taken with MDMA (primarily, supplementing with antioxidants and neuroprotective chemicals) would potentially provide some measure of abation?
Likewise, are there any preventative measures that can be taken towards the vascular constriction and cardiotoxicity, other than the usual take it easy/practice moderation?
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
Off-topic:
Not only that, but I think that 5ht efflux adds something special to the equation. I recall my second time rolling, thinking, "I have a mild headache, but it feels awesome!!!" This stands qualitatively distinct from typical stimulant-analgesia.
pofacedhoe
Bluelight Crew
definitely,
i used to be on citalopram (SSRI) and noticed that physical pain (like cutting skin with a knife or wacking your leg) just didn't affect me the same way. i often thought it would make a good painkiller.
as for the poster above who metioned neurotoxicity, yes its a danger but sudden death as a result of heart failure seems like a more worrying prospect. methamphetamine is neurotoxic but if i was addicted to it the damage to my heart would concern me more. you can live with less neurons but you cant live with a failed heart.
proving neurotoxicity can be difficult (as seen with research on mdma) but its worth looking into
Crankinit
Bluelighter
The flip side of that being that enough people have taken this stuff that heart failure seems like a very small possibility if used moderately, whereas if it's neurotoxic then even what seems like moderate use could possibly have an impact on your future quality of life.
If this drug was causing people to drop dead left right and centre, we'd know. If it was just killing their braincells but not the rest of them, we wouldn't necessarily be aware. As you said, look at the MDMA example.
It's all very well to say you can survive with less neurons, but after a few years of meth and MDMA abuse I came to realise I'm actually quite attached to mine and would rather not lose any more of them 
I understand where you're coming from though.
pofacedhoe
Bluelight Crew
The flip side of that being that enough people have taken this stuff that heart failure seems like a very small possibility if used moderately, whereas if it's neurotoxic then even what seems like moderate use could possibly have an impact on your future quality of life.
If this drug was causing people to drop dead left right and centre, we'd know. If it was just killing their braincells but not the rest of them, we wouldn't necessarily be aware. As you said, look at the MDMA example.
It's all very well to say you can survive with less neurons, but after a few years of meth and MDMA abuse I came to realise I'm actually quite attached to mine and would rather not lose any more of them
I understand where you're coming from though.
fair do's, i have been using this drug often every couple of weeks for roughly 9 months now. personally i know its silly to be doing this but i used MDMA as often before but not currently. with mephedrone their doesn't seem to be the same after issues with mdma (temper, depression, etc.) after long periods of time using it i notice no decrease in my day to day quality of life. with mdma after using it regularly the mood for months on end could be significantly lower.
mdma seems a far harsher and more potent chemical when it comes to affecting neurons (specifically serotonin neurons). what draws me back to meph is the relaxed and mellow high followed by a short bearable crash. having done amphetamines for years and mdma as well, i would say they have a very strong neuronal effect, while meph is milder (in a similar way to coke and ritalin).
Mitchy=)
Bluelighter
Cheers for that post vecktor, apreciate it, that actualy cleared a whole lot up.
And yeah i doubt we will get more information until more studies are done, but it believe its safe to say that you shouldnt be taking more than 400mg a weekend (in my personal experience after some heart issues arose)
shoolameet
Bluelighter
I keep seeing people say don't take more than "this much" a week or a weekend. I think this should be treated like MDMA - 4-6 weeks between uses at least (although I know realistically many people don't adhere to that.) I am just saying, you'll enjoy it more and probably live longer if you space it out more.
Bob Loblaw
Bluelight Crew
If I've been on a pretty strong binge (~6g in a week, followed by a few more grams [2-3] a few days later), and I noticed slight chest pain once before, then after my last dose, and it's still present almost 24 hours later, is this something to be concerned about? Or will it go away without mandating medical attention?
Buddy122
Bluelighter
^any better / any worse? Chest pain is nothing to fuck around with, if it's not dissipating i would definitely recomend seeking medical attention.
deckmunki
Bluelighter
Anyone in any position of responsibility for a person's health would tell them to immediately present themselves to ER/A&E with the symptoms you've described. As the op above says; chest pains are ignored at your peril - that's not to say "panic", but it's also not saying "if you can survive 24 hours, you'll probably be ok to ignore it" - you're crazy if you do that.