Stimulants How to lower BP after using Phenidate stimulants?

[SuperPsych]

I recently got a methylphenidate analogue called 4-ME-tmp aka 4-Methylmethylphenidate.

For the most part I like the effects. Decent mood lift, long duration and a smooth enough comedown. However, I find that it can increase my Blood Pressure to uncomfortable levels. Some people report doing 80mg doses and really loving it. I take 20mg and feel like I'm gonna have a heart attack.

I know the wise thing to do is to stop using it, but I do still want to explore it some more. I'm just wondering if there is anything I can use to safely counteract the increase in blood pressure?

I don't have access to benzos and am on Suboxone so I'm hesitant to take benzos at all. I have all sorts of supplements. I also have clonidine but according to my Google searches, it can be dangerous to combine with Methylphenidate.

Does anyone know of anything that might ease the stress on the cardiovascular system caused my 4-me-tmp or other phenidate stimulants?

 

[CFC]

Do you have access to any beta-blockers? Clonidine will tend to kill some of the positives of using stimulants quite a bit, but beta-blockers are generally more compatible and less likely to kill the high.

 

[SuperPsych]

Do you have access to any beta-blockers? Clonidine will tend to kill some of the positives of using stimulants quite a bit, but beta-blockers are generally more compatible and less likely to kill the high.

I don't have any immediate access but they aren't too hard to come across. Propranolol is a beta-blocker, right?

Would a beta-blocker pose the same risks when mixed with Methylphenidate as it does with clonidine? According to a few websites, both clonidine and methylphenidate can affect heart rhythm, and on one site it mentioned at least 4 deaths in adolescents due to the combination. Others seem to have used them together without ill-effects though

 

[CFC]

I don't have any immediate access but they aren't too hard to come across. Propranolol is a beta-blocker, right?

Would a beta-blocker pose the same risks when mixed with Methylphenidate as it does with clonidine? According to a few websites, both clonidine and methylphenidate can affect heart rhythm, and on one site it mentioned at least 4 deaths in adolescents due to the combination. Others seem to have used them together without ill-effects though

You need to bear in mind that nobody here can give you medical advice or a guarantee I'm afraid. If you choose to do something to attenuate the side-effects of something else you take, you also have to take any responsibility for any accompanying side-effects. That notwithstanding, most people don't experience serious negative sides from mixing either alpha or beta blockers with stims, but it can indeed happen. The beta blocker would almost certainly have a lower chance of causing serious sides than a pre-synaptic agonist like clonidine (and much less of an impact on the stimulant effects).

However you may find propranolol less ideal than a more selective (for the B1 receptors) beta-blocker like atenolol, metoprolol or nebivolol, because in hitting the B2 receptors as well, it tends to reduce the effects people like from stimulants more than just hitting the B1 receptors (which are more specific to the heart and arteries). Nebivolol (which I myself use in combination) is particularly handy because it activates (agonises) the B3 receptors, and so reduces vasoconstriction and blood pressure more than most other beta-blockers while also slowing the heart rate.

 

[SuperPsych]

You need to bear in mind that nobody here can give you medical advice or a guarantee I'm afraid. If you choose to do something to attenuate the side-effects of something else you take, you also have to take any responsibility for any accompanying side-effects. That notwithstanding, most people don't experience serious negative sides from mixing either alpha or beta blockers with stims, but it can indeed happen. The beta blocker would almost certainly have a lower chance of causing serious sides than a pre-synaptic agonist like clonidine (and much less of an impact on the stimulant effects).

However you may find propranolol less ideal than a more selective (for the B1 receptors) beta-blocker like atenolol, metoprolol or nebivolol, because in hitting the B2 receptors as well, it tends to reduce the effects people like from stimulants more than just hitting the B1 receptors (which are more specific to the heart and arteries). Nebivolol (which I myself use in combination) is particularly handy because it activates (agonises) the B3 receptors, and so reduces vasoconstriction and blood pressure more than most other beta-blockers while also slowing the heart rate.

I really appreciate the thorough response! I don't think I'm comfortable mixing clonidine with Methylphenidate, but I'll look into the beta-blockers. Nebivolol sounds particularly promising.

I seem to remember that Agmatine lowers blood pressure somewhat. I imagine mixing it with Methylphenidate wouldn't cause any issues. Maybe I'll give agmatine and Magnesium a whirl next time I decide to try out the 4-me-tmp.

 

[CFC]

I really appreciate the thorough response! I don't think I'm comfortable mixing clonidine with Methylphenidate, but I'll look into the beta-blockers. Nebivolol sounds particularly promising.

I seem to remember that Agmatine lowers blood pressure somewhat. I imagine mixing it with Methylphenidate wouldn't cause any issues. Maybe I'll give agmatine and Magnesium a whirl next time I decide to try out the 4-me-tmp.

You may find agmatine has a mild dampening effect on the stimulant, but it should be safe to try. I've never used it in combo before. If you do take it, it would be good to hear your experiences.

 

[SuperPsych]

You may find agmatine has a mild dampening effect on the stimulant, but it should be safe to try. I've never used it in combo before. If you do take it, it would be good to hear your experiences.

The dampening effect wouldn't bother me too much if it helped the cardiovascular issues. I like the effects of the 4-me-tmp but the discomfort it causes me in terms of BP make it not worth using sometimes

 

[neversickanymore]

Be careful if you begin to use the combination regularly and especially chronically as discontinuation may cause unwanted and dangerous situations.

 

[deficiT]

I was going to suggest clonidine until I read the end of your post. I was prescribed it alongside other meds for ADHD, it is regularly prescribed for that purpose in ADHD regiments, so I had no idea about the negative potential interactions.

There is also hydroxyzine which can be helpful for these purposes if you're settled on not taking benzos. It isn't the strongest meds and it won't get you high or anything like that, but it's fairly useful for limiting anxiety for a simple antihistamine.

 

[CFC]

I was going to suggest clonidine until I read the end of your post. I was prescribed it alongside other meds for ADHD, it is regularly prescribed for that purpose in ADHD regiments, so I had no idea about the negative potential interactions.

There is also hydroxyzine which can be helpful for these purposes if you're settled on not taking benzos. It isn't the strongest meds and it won't get you high or anything like that, but it's fairly useful for limiting anxiety for a simple antihistamine.

How did you find the combination with clonidine for your ADHD symptoms mate? Was it mixed with a stimulant?

 

[VerbalTruist]

How did you find the combination with clonidine for your ADHD symptoms mate? Was it mixed with a stimulant?

I was prescribed Adderall and Clonidine together. I like them together, quite a bit. Definitely takes the edge off but not the euphoria.

 

[CFC]

I was prescribed Adderall and Clonidine together. I like them together, quite a bit. Definitely takes the edge off but not the euphoria.

Thanks for the reply! Interesting - chimes with what I've heard from others.

My own experience with clonidine + stimulant is that the clonidine makes me feel terribly sullen/depressed, even just a small dose, and doesn't help my ADHD symptoms.

 

[deficiT]

How did you find the combination with clonidine for your ADHD symptoms mate? Was it mixed with a stimulant?

At the time I was on it I wasn't on any stimulants, aside from maybe bupropion. But I have taken it to come down from Adderall or Vyvanse. It works well for me for that purpose.

 

[CFC]

At the time I was on it I wasn't on any stimulants, aside from maybe bupropion. But I have taken it to come down from Adderall or Vyvanse. It works well for me for that purpose.

Ah right, gotcha. Yeah, I find it good as a comedown aid too, and sometimes at bedtime when I can't sleep due to lingering stimulant effects from a regular vyvanse dose.

Clonidine taken by itself (without stimulant) doesn't seem to affect my ADHD either way, annoyingly, but I know it's used as a solo treatment modality in some forms of ADHD to (apparently) good effect.

 

[JTemperance]

Interesting. Like others, l'd never heard of clonidine interacting dangerously with methylphenidate before. Beta-blockers are what I remember being cautioned about in terms of stimulants.

I've taken clonidine with amphetamines many times & with methylphenidate a few times (on the comedown, not simultaneously) and, FWIW, I've never noticed anything unusual or worrisome as a result.

In my experience, though, clonidine can suppress some of the desired effects of stimulants above a small dose — the flipside of how good it is at reducing the physical edginess.

I've also sometimes gotten that sullen/depressed feeling from it. (IIRC, clonidine has actually been used to induce a state modeling depression in animal studies.)

 

[JTemperance]

Also, agmatine isn't a bad idea either, IMO.

How exactly it works seems to still be something of a mystery, but IIRC it is thought to have alpha-2 agonist effects, like clonidine, as well as NMDA antagonist (and possibly other) effects.

I know some people find agmatine totally unnoticeable at any dose, but I've felt a sedative effect from taking 1000mg that is pretty distinct, though still relatively mild.

 

[CFC]

Also, agmatine isn't a bad idea either, IMO.

How exactly it works seems to still be something of a mystery, but IIRC it is thought to have alpha-2 agonist effects, like clonidine, as well as NMDA antagonist (and possibly other) effects.

I know some people find agmatine totally unnoticeable at any dose, but I've felt a sedative effect from taking 1000mg that is pretty distinct, though still relatively mild.

IIRC it can block (with fairly decent affinity) the activity of other compounds at A2 receptors with little intrinsic effect of its own. It's main activity when taken alone may be mediated mostly via imidazoline receptors (so a bit like moxonidine in that regard). Though as you point out it's comparatively poorly researched or understood as of yet, and has a complex of activities.

I'd like to get hold of some and see how it mixes with stimulants, but I suspect it could dampen adrenergic activity too much to be helpful for me.

 

[Madrus]

So when the stims start to feel bad, do I take:
Propranol (20mg, 40mg?)
Clonodine (0.1mg, 0.2mg?)
Nebivolol (2.5mg, 5mg?)

Which drug and what dosage?
Cocaine.

 

[SuperPsych]

Also, agmatine isn't a bad idea either, IMO.

How exactly it works seems to still be something of a mystery, but IIRC it is thought to have alpha-2 agonist effects, like clonidine, as well as NMDA antagonist (and possibly other) effects.

I know some people find agmatine totally unnoticeable at any dose, but I've felt a sedative effect from taking 1000mg that is pretty distinct, though still relatively mild.

Yeah, agmatine is probably all that I can try. I mean I CAN try clonidine, but I have an anxiety disorder and I'll probably convince myself that I'm having a heart attack the moment I combine them.

I'm pretty sure I've mixed clonidine and amphetamines before with no issues. I think its just NDRIs that have that issue for some reason. Who knows? It may be safe. I'm just going off of the medication interaction checker on a health website. It usually seems to overexagerate the risk. I just don't wanna freak myself out.

I remember I used to use Cayenne Pepper sometimes for heart issues when I was using a lot of Propylhexedrine and amphetamines, although I don't remember the mechanism of action behind that one.

Edit: Just looked it up and Cayenne Pepper is a vasodialator. I remember using it for Propylhexedrines side effects and was amazed by how well it worked. I always just filled up 1-2 gel caps and swallowed and it'd work within minutes. Gonna see if I have any Cayenne pepper and I'll put it to the test. I'm considering trying the 4-Me-Tmp again tomorrow. I'll let you guys know if it helps at all

 

[negrogesic]

I recently got a methylphenidate analogue called 4-ME-tmp aka 4-Methylmethylphenidate.

For the most part I like the effects. Decent mood lift, long duration and a smooth enough comedown. However, I find that it can increase my Blood Pressure to uncomfortable levels. Some people report doing 80mg doses and really loving it. I take 20mg and feel like I'm gonna have a heart attack.

I know the wise thing to do is to stop using it, but I do still want to explore it some more. I'm just wondering if there is anything I can use to safely counteract the increase in blood pressure?

I don't have access to benzos and am on Suboxone so I'm hesitant to take benzos at all. I have all sorts of supplements. I also have clonidine but according to my Google searches, it can be dangerous to combine with Methylphenidate.

Does anyone know of anything that might ease the stress on the cardiovascular system caused my 4-me-tmp or other phenidate stimulants?

I bought some 4-me-tmp recently and yes, it definitely does raise the blood pressure. I do find myself taking large doses (I've gone through a good 200mg in a day). Comedown is pretty rough at that level. Overall I find the comedown is quite a bit harsher than 4-F-MPH (which isn't saying a whole lot since 4-F-MPH has a mild comedown).

I can't imagine 20mg causes too significant a spike in blood pressure but you might try 500mg-800mg of agmatine, which should offset whatever increase it gave you. At high doses, 80mg+ of 4-me-tmp, my head feels like its going to pop. I've got mixed opinions on the drug but its definitely not nearly as good as methylphenidate proper. Given the milder comedown i feel like 4-F-MPH is usually superior to 4-me-tmp, but 4-me-tmp definitely has some brightening properties that are more reminiscent of methylphenidate. Like methylphenidate, 4-me-tmp has visual "brightening" effect that 4-F-MPH, and such an effect I associate with euphoria. But it is never quite there in that regard. That said, the blood pressure certainly gets there