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How often is too often with mdma? (New thread incase theres new info, not to mention my case is a bit specific)

cosmosmariner said:
Here is a brand new paper that does a good job of summarizing the neurotoxicity issues: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0014488621003022

Please do not take MDMA once a month. I am loathe to disagree with G Chem, but multiple days in a row may meet his personal safety threshold, but not mine.

I appreciate the experience of others, but take very little stock in people sharing their use patterns as a proxy for safety data.

For me, my brain is sacred, and the MDMA molecule is sacred. I treat them both as such. A stroll through the “Recovery” thread is something I do to remind myself that as much as I want to rationalize frequent use, the threat is real.

Here are three things that give me pause in the above paper:

1. The studies generally employ a binge-like dosing, and don’t evaluate the persistent and delayed serotonergic and/or dopaninergic modifications induced by MDMA, effects which in primates and rats, are shown to be persistent over months and even years. In humans, reductions in SERT density in several brain regions have been shown.
2. There are data showing cognitive deficits in humans who are heavy users (what exactly dose this mean? Monthly? ) including verbal learning, attention, and working memory, and creating tolerance that causes users to increase their dose to get the same effects.
3. Neurotoxic effects can result from toxic metabolites of MDMA, an increase in oxidative stress, mitochondrial disfunction, and the activation of glial cells leading to excitotoxicity (meaning there are multiple pathways leading to the damage).

And please do not allow yourself to be hot or in a hot environment, and don’t combine MDMA with any other drugs (even caffeine).
Click to expand...

I just realized this is not the thread I thought it was, check out my thread on the 3 month rule to get some of studies I mentioned.

-GC
 
G_Chem said:
I have provided quite a few articles that show multi day use to be safe under the right circumstances. Also the article you’ve provided seems to be only available as the abstract in the link unless I need to search further?

To answer some of your concerns,

1. All studies that show long term abnormalities used large doses in a binge dosing type scenario often 20mg/kg every 2hr 4x total. It should be noted there is no long term serotonin deficiencies of any sort when a single dose is given even up to 20mg/kg. It should also be noted the studies most often cited for these long term primate serotonin deficiency is a Ricaurte which should be thrown out instantly if one is familiar with his work.

Let’s look at some of studies supporting long term neurotoxicity in primates…

Probably the most cited.


We have a Ricaurte article but we see that they use multiple doses of 2mg/kg at 3hr intervals. Most MDMA users know of the diminishing returns and heavily increased comedown that come with this dosing. This would be like me taking a full solid dose 3 times in a night, a guaranteed disaster.

What people also love to forget is that of the 5 squirrel monkeys, 1 couldn’t stand the 3rd dose and the other died! Last I checked humans try to avoid dosing regimens which induce death in 1 of 5 individuals.

Another popular one, this one I’ve often seen people quote these are actual human brains.. Drug war huh.. This one you’ll need to search out the PDF it’s out there.


Here we see 2x5mg each day for 4 days!! Once again similar to human doses but the only way they can get that neurotoxicity is through a multiple dose a day regimen, as shown in other articles a single dose daily doesn’t have the same neurotoxic potential.

Now the only article which seems to imply “long term” neurotoxicity from a single dose of 5mg/kg orally. First off that’s double an average dose at least. But next we see long term to then is 2 weeks post dosing.. Also yet ANOTHER Ricaurte.



I’ll be honest if you can find me an article that gives primates a reasonable single oral (2mg/kg) that then checks at least 3 months later, I’ll start to think twice but based on everything I’ve provided both in support as well as debunking research that is against i feel fairly confident in my assertion.

2. This I will agree does show cause for concern with neurotoxicity. My retort on this is that these studies were done long before MDMA users were wise to how to use MDMA properly. I never claim this drug should not be treated with respect, quite the opposite. Back in the day (90’s and 00’s) weekendly use was common, sometimes both nights.

I have also talked about on a number of occasions when one is noticing a tolerance increase that is a sign based on the research that one is getting neurotoxicity from the MDMA. This is why folks should read my thread about How To Not Lose The Magic, goes over all this and more.

Both myself and numerous close individuals to me have dosed how I describe with zero tolerance increase even after over decade of use.

3. Yup there is many proposed neurotoxicity mechanisms, all of which (besides maybe excitotoxicity, I’d have to look) are attenuated by ingestion of antioxidants. No matter how it occurs, or whether it occurs via multiple mechanisms it all comes back to our antioxidant system. MDMA taxes this system about 400% normal so one must make sure to ingest higher than average antioxidants during that time.

Again I don’t claim this to not be an issue, in fact I mention this as the biggest thing people need to keep an eye on. Each subsequent roll will drain it further, so one must top it off often as they can and consume a healthy diet with a large variety of said compounds.


Regarding the heat, yes this is also a concern. But this goes back to my How To Not Lose The Magic thread, I talk over that more there and don’t think it has much to do with this current topic.


I’ll finish with this, I hold MDMA sacred as well. There’s been years I’ve only taken it once or twice a year. I hold true to the idea one must keep a strict yearly limit (not necessarily x4 or less but definitely no more than x7-8). MDMA has given me probably the most insightful experiences of any drug I’ve tried including psychedelics. I don’t view consuming two days in a row hedonistic or in any way disrespectful, quite the opposite. Ask @Hilopsilo about the magic that is two day dosing, I’ve been able to reach heights I don’t feel I could’ve done in one session.

-GC
Click to expand...
Glad you responded. Thanks for all these thoughts. I will check out your other post for more info. No doubt we both are aligned.

I value the discussion.

You’re right about the lack of data examining reasonable doses over a long time horizon. However, that makes we worried, rather than relieved. There are human studies referenced in the paper I posted that show cognitive deficits in humans. And of course, in the MDMA recovery thread, there are more anecdotes of people with long-term problems than you and me and all our friends and lovers combined. The anecdotal data are worse.

I could be overreacting.

— Cos
 
Remember blue dove -it looks like more a small cylinder than pill.Lovely!That's a remember-a lovell feeling man indeed
 
Nas47 said:
Remember blue dove -it looks like more a small cylinder than pill.Lovely!That's a remember-a lovell feeling man indeed
Click to expand...
I never had a blue dove.

Speckled, but really just the true whites mostly.

Elephants were crazy too. Big, towerblock crumbly pills ponging of saffrole and the Elephant stamp unique on each almost due to slight crumblyness.
 
I always take MDMA as a single dose, as the only times I have had any comedown to speak of from one nights use have been with redosing.
Whenever I haven't followed the one month max rule I have experienced some depression/anhedonia afterwards, while single spaced out experiences most often give a positive afterglow with an increased lust for life.
I generally don't go higher than 150 mg, as larger doses don't seem to add much in terms of pleasurable effects but make unwanted side effects more pronounced. Ideal dosage is of course different from person to person.
No loss of magic yet, it's been about 15 years since the first time I tried it - sometimes it has gone more than a year between uses though, while some years I've used it quite often.

I know this doesn't add anything to the discussion when it comes to neurotoxicity issues, but some general tips that have worked for me anyway.
 
not worth knowing said:
I always take MDMA as a single dose, as the only times I have had any comedown to speak of from one nights use have been with redosing.
Whenever I haven't followed the one month max rule I have experienced some depression/anhedonia afterwards, while single spaced out experiences most often give a positive afterglow with an increased lust for life.
I generally don't go higher than 150 mg, as larger doses don't seem to add much in terms of pleasurable effects but make unwanted side effects more pronounced. Ideal dosage is of course different from person to person.
No loss of magic yet, it's been about 15 years since the first time I tried it - sometimes it has gone more than a year between uses though, while some years I've used it quite often.

I know this doesn't add anything to the discussion when it comes to neurotoxicity issues, but some general tips that have worked for me anyway.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Because, it was long ago established it is less of a neurotoxocological assault to say take 200 mg's at once, vs 100 mg's twice one hour apart.


See again, I redosed every time, days, weeks on end.


But 250 mg's as a sole single dose, probably would be less neurotoxic than 200 mg's in divided doses.
 
Never toke more than 2 pills at night.divided in two doses.enough for me
 
not worth knowing said:
I always take MDMA as a single dose, as the only times I have had any comedown to speak of from one nights use have been with redosing.
Whenever I haven't followed the one month max rule I have experienced some depression/anhedonia afterwards, while single spaced out experiences most often give a positive afterglow with an increased lust for life.
I generally don't go higher than 150 mg, as larger doses don't seem to add much in terms of pleasurable effects but make unwanted side effects more pronounced. Ideal dosage is of course different from person to person.
No loss of magic yet, it's been about 15 years since the first time I tried it - sometimes it has gone more than a year between uses though, while some years I've used it quite often.

I know this doesn't add anything to the discussion when it comes to neurotoxicity issues, but some general tips that have worked for me anyway.
Click to expand...
I agree. I have experimented extensively with others and found a single dose to produce more profound effects than two doses. In other words, taking 150 mg is better than taking 100 mg and 50 mg 30, 60, or 90 min later. And the side effects are lighter as well with a single dose.
 
You know, using the term suitably, today's exstacy community, culture message and ethic would truly shame me.

I mean, I can't possibly feel any personal shame or embarrassment but I can still be aware of inclinations.

I'm just so fully reinforced on this though, because people have actually tried to shame me, sometimes quite aggressively simply for reporting my past usage patterns.

And that's wrong to me. It wasn't to do with influencing anybody else though, and more like weak minds seeking scapegoat.
 
AutoTripper said:
You know, using the term suitably, today's exstacy community, culture message and ethic would truly shame me.

I mean, I can't possibly feel any personal shame or embarrassment but I can still be aware of inclinations.

I'm just so fully reinforced on this though, because people have actually tried to shame me, sometimes quite aggressively simply for reporting my past usage patterns.

And that's wrong to me. It wasn't to do with influencing anybody else though, and more like weak minds seeking scapegoat.
Click to expand...
I hope you did not think I was trying to shame you, AT. I was just wanting people to know that a single dose can be a better experience than multiple doses.
 
cosmosmariner said:
I agree. I have experimented extensively with others and found a single dose to produce more profound effects than two doses. In other words, taking 150 mg is better than taking 100 mg and 50 mg 30, 60, or 90 min later. And the side effects are lighter as well with a single dose.
Click to expand...
I’ve redose a few times without any comedown or side effects. and I’ve taken Mdma 7 times this last year and a half. My doses are also fairly big, as I seem to have a naturally high tolerance to everything. The first time taking it I took around .250 the last time I took it (before the long break) I took .3 with a .2 booster dose I think. It was DEFINITELY worth the redose. Mainly because you never know how much you should take for your first dose. It may be super potent, or it may be really weak. But by the second dose you have a pretty good idea how much you can take to get the most out of it. Redose Ming is honestly a must for me. As long as I don’t get any side effects or comedown. I wish I wouldn’t redose with the last stuff I got because it was by far the best mdma I’ve gotten so far. It would have been so amazing!
 
Bl42 said:
I’ve redose a few times without any comedown or side effects. and I’ve taken Mdma 7 times this last year and a half. My doses are also fairly big, as I seem to have a naturally high tolerance to everything. The first time taking it I took around .250 the last time I took it (before the long break) I took .3 with a .2 booster dose I think. It was DEFINITELY worth the redose. Mainly because you never know how much you should take for your first dose. It may be super potent, or it may be really weak. But by the second dose you have a pretty good idea how much you can take to get the most out of it. Redose Ming is honestly a must for me. As long as I don’t get any side effects or comedown. I wish I wouldn’t redose with the last stuff I got because it was by far the best mdma I’ve gotten so far. It would have been so amazing!
Click to expand...
I hear you. I have been using the same stuff, so there’s not a difference in potency.
 
G_Chem said:
I have provided quite a few articles that show multi day use to be safe under the right circumstances. Also the article you’ve provided seems to be only available as the abstract in the link unless I need to search further?

To answer some of your concerns,

1. All studies that show long term abnormalities used large doses in a binge dosing type scenario often 20mg/kg every 2hr 4x total. It should be noted there is no long term serotonin deficiencies of any sort when a single dose is given even up to 20mg/kg. It should also be noted the studies most often cited for these long term primate serotonin deficiency is a Ricaurte which should be thrown out instantly if one is familiar with his work.

Let’s look at some of studies supporting long term neurotoxicity in primates…

Probably the most cited.


We have a Ricaurte article but we see that they use multiple doses of 2mg/kg at 3hr intervals. Most MDMA users know of the diminishing returns and heavily increased comedown that come with this dosing. This would be like me taking a full solid dose 3 times in a night, a guaranteed disaster.

What people also love to forget is that of the 5 squirrel monkeys, 1 couldn’t stand the 3rd dose and the other died! Last I checked humans try to avoid dosing regimens which induce death in 1 of 5 individuals.

Another popular one, this one I’ve often seen people quote these are actual human brains.. Drug war huh.. This one you’ll need to search out the PDF it’s out there.


Here we see 2x5mg each day for 4 days!! Once again similar to human doses but the only way they can get that neurotoxicity is through a multiple dose a day regimen, as shown in other articles a single dose daily doesn’t have the same neurotoxic potential.

Now the only article which seems to imply “long term” neurotoxicity from a single dose of 5mg/kg orally. First off that’s double an average dose at least. But next we see long term to then is 2 weeks post dosing.. Also yet ANOTHER Ricaurte.



I’ll be honest if you can find me an article that gives primates a reasonable single oral (2mg/kg) that then checks at least 3 months later, I’ll start to think twice but based on everything I’ve provided both in support as well as debunking research that is against i feel fairly confident in my assertion.

2. This I will agree does show cause for concern with neurotoxicity. My retort on this is that these studies were done long before MDMA users were wise to how to use MDMA properly. I never claim this drug should not be treated with respect, quite the opposite. Back in the day (90’s and 00’s) weekendly use was common, sometimes both nights.

I have also talked about on a number of occasions when one is noticing a tolerance increase that is a sign based on the research that one is getting neurotoxicity from the MDMA. This is why folks should read my thread about How To Not Lose The Magic, goes over all this and more.

Both myself and numerous close individuals to me have dosed how I describe with zero tolerance increase even after over decade of use.

3. Yup there is many proposed neurotoxicity mechanisms, all of which (besides maybe excitotoxicity, I’d have to look) are attenuated by ingestion of antioxidants. No matter how it occurs, or whether it occurs via multiple mechanisms it all comes back to our antioxidant system. MDMA taxes this system about 400% normal so one must make sure to ingest higher than average antioxidants during that time.

Again I don’t claim this to not be an issue, in fact I mention this as the biggest thing people need to keep an eye on. Each subsequent roll will drain it further, so one must top it off often as they can and consume a healthy diet with a large variety of said compounds.


Regarding the heat, yes this is also a concern. But this goes back to my How To Not Lose The Magic thread, I talk over that more there and don’t think it has much to do with this current topic.


I’ll finish with this, I hold MDMA sacred as well. There’s been years I’ve only taken it once or twice a year. I hold true to the idea one must keep a strict yearly limit (not necessarily x4 or less but definitely no more than x7-8). MDMA has given me probably the most insightful experiences of any drug I’ve tried including psychedelics. I don’t view consuming two days in a row hedonistic or in any way disrespectful, quite the opposite. Ask @Hilopsilo about the magic that is two day dosing, I’ve been able to reach heights I don’t feel I could’ve done in one session.

-GC
Click to expand...
I can't comment on whether its healthy physically, but I've rolled quite a few times 2x100mg doses 24-48 hours apart, never did I feel less high the 2nd time, and sometimes waaaaay higher. This could totally be that I'm on a larger psych dose w/ less inhibitions by day 2 or 3 of the party. More comfy w/ the people I'm with, probably worked through all my mental baggage by that point, very centered and calm... theres a lot to it I think.
 
Troco72 said:
So I understand there have been threads on this in the past , but the most recent ones I could find were pretty old as in I believe the newest was 2016. I'm making a new thread because all the information I see is a bit contradictory and there doesn't seem to be an agreed consensus on the matter, but I'm hoping that now with time passed that there will be to some extent.

So I'm not too worried about the tolerance and losing the magic , as I imagine that won't be permanent, and if I notice it that I can just abstain from mdma for a long period of time to gain it back. I'm more worried about Long term health effects and the like.

So I'm wondering, is this something I can figure out for myself like "well I'll take it once a month, and if I notice negative side effects like brain fog, hypersomnia, etc etc, I can just stop for a while" is this safe to do? Testing how my body reacts? Or should I not try and test it like this in fear of permanent damage?

And if thats the case and I shouldn't "play with fire" can you guys let me know your opinions on the matter in regards to how long of a break I should be taking between sessions?

I should mention that i snort it (I got it in crystal form and don't want to consume toilet paper or deal with the taste in drink form, I could get gel capsules but transportation is a huge issue at the moment and I have no one who can get them for me) and that because I snort it. I take multiple, as in quite a lot, of doses in one sessions , however the doses are very very small, literal bumps at a time probably amounting to a total of max 400 mg a session but probably less by a good margin, 200 mg being maybe average. Im just mentioning this incase it plays a roll in how often I should be taking it.

I appreciate any help! :)
Click to expand...
I may not be the best person to answer this, but I'm going to be honest.

Everybody responds to frequent dosing of MDMA differently.

I'm one of the few, the proud and the lucky that have taken an absurd amount of MDMA and have never lost the magic.

Absurd. I mean over 400 tablets and the equivalent of over 500 pills of MDMA and another 200 plus of other research chemicals and drugs.

Never lost the magic once. And I used to take multiple days in a row. Usually 3 or 4 days a week for over a year and a half. Then I took a long break and started back in 2015.

Now I have to be honest. The only reason I stopped at 3 to 4 days is because real MDMA which was what I was getting back in the late 90s early 2000s has a dysphoric effect after 3 or 4 days. It makes you feel bad when you take it if you take it three or four days or longer.

That's one of the reasons you have to actually work hard to get addicted to MDMA. And I'm not sure a lot of the reinforcement isn't from related drugs that actually aren't MDMA.

Now one of the things that I do differently than everyone else is I religiously take 2,000 mg of liposomal vitamin c three times a day. And I used to take more of that of the powder vitamin c back in the '90s before liposomal came out. I also take other antioxidants and multivitamins and herbs.

Always stayed hydrated - That's a lie. Who am I kidding but I tried my best.

But I will agree with G chem. Multiple re dosing of MDMA and other substituted phenethylamines has been shown to be potentially neurotoxic starting at about the dose that you use, assuming that you're correct in your measurement.

That's not to say that there's any proven guaranteed damage.

I mean after all they do give a ridiculous amount of injected directly into the brain MDMA to the test animals.

All that said, you have to feel what your body is telling you. But you also have to be smart. Find a good clean pill. Take one. To the party. Wait for a week or two, then try it again and gradually reduce the time between doses. Until you don't get as good of a response.

Then you know you're not a freak like me.
 
G_Chem said:
I just realized this is not the thread I thought it was, check out my thread on the 3 month rule to get some of studies I mentioned.

-GC
Click to expand...
You know the preloading of antioxidants before administration of MDMA completely abolishes the dopamine quinone related neurotoxicity, right?
 
Bl42 said:
I’ve redose a few times without any comedown or side effects. and I’ve taken Mdma 7 times this last year and a half. My doses are also fairly big, as I seem to have a naturally high tolerance to everything. The first time taking it I took around .250 the last time I took it (before the long break) I took .3 with a .2 booster dose I think. It was DEFINITELY worth the redose. Mainly because you never know how much you should take for your first dose. It may be super potent, or it may be really weak. But by the second dose you have a pretty good idea how much you can take to get the most out of it. Redose Ming is honestly a must for me. As long as I don’t get any side effects or comedown. I wish I wouldn’t redose with the last stuff I got because it was by far the best mdma I’ve gotten so far. It would have been so amazing!
Click to expand...
You do realize that if you actually have MDMA you are taking half a gram or more in one day.
I think you really need to step back and look hard at the amount of MDMA or whatever the hell it is that you take because I would probably bet you and be right that sometimes you take that three points and then you take two more points and then you take two more points. So now you're at 3/4 of a freaking gram.
 
Hilopsilo said:
I can't comment on whether its healthy physically, but I've rolled quite a few times 2x100mg doses 24-48 hours apart, never did I feel less high the 2nd time, and sometimes waaaaay higher. This could totally be that I'm on a larger psych dose w/ less inhibitions by day 2 or 3 of the party. More comfy w/ the people I'm with, probably worked through all my mental baggage by that point, very centered and calm... theres a lot to it I think.
Click to expand...
Nope, I feel you. Never lost the magic ever. I mean maybe it wasn't as fun on day four in a row, and on those super rare occasions when I actually was stupid enough to take it on day 5 and just felt horrible, but other than that I never lost the magic.

Now after 4 or 5 days MDMA causes a dysphoric reaction in people that administer it.

By day 6 or 7 you just don't have enough serotonin to actually get a response.

Took me like 3 days to recover.

Honestly, I think my physiology is different than regular people's.

I have Asperger's, and one of the characteristics of people with Asperger's is that they have very high circulating serotonin in their bloodstream. And I believe that that affected the sensitivity and density of my serotonin receptors all over my body.

MDMA and other MDXX and substituted benzofurans, are for me what Adderall and Vyvanse are for people with ADHD. Totally got rid of my OCD which I had from Asperger's. Totally got rid of my social anxiety. If you don't understand, people going out in public is horribly scary.
 
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