Health How many regular or semi-regular psych users don't have HPPD?

[swilow]

I thought that mild visual disturbances were common among users of psychedelics. At least, compared to the prevalence of HPPD. I was wondering if these visual disturbances are likely to increase the more you expose yourself to psychedelics? And does this put you at a higher risk of developing HPPD?

I have trails, some halos/afterimages/static, after only 2 trips, but it's very mild and does not bother me. I'm reluctant to trip again, however, as I feel as though this may put me in a higher risk category in terms of developing HPPD.

Personally, I think everyone has mild vsual disturbances, psych user or no; I think the fact that psychedelics are so visual, when sober, we tend to focus moreso on the sense of sight.

 

[ShaolinBomber]

Personally, I think everyone has mild vsual disturbances, psych user or no; I think the fact that psychedelics are so visual, when sober, we tend to focus moreso on the sense of sight.

man, you have no idea, what your vision is like with HPPD. Literally turn what you see daily into a psychedelic distortion, most of the time without the body sensation of the trip and most of the mental part, just visuals.

I will post simulators here when they get them out and i'll show you what im talking about.

 

[invert]

After the first time I took 2C-B, over a decade ago, I had visual trails intermittently for a few weeks thereafter. Since then, though, I've not experienced any enduring perceptual distortions (beyond the increased awareness swilow refers to), despite much more psychedelic use in recent years.

 

[Vaya]

At the time I post this, 80% of people have responded that they do not have HPPD - which honestly doesn't surprise me. It also doesn't surprise me that the rate of HPPD here is so much higher relative to that of the general population; this is, after all, the "Psychedelic Drugs" forum of a chemical-based community %)

I responded 'yes' to the poll, because I do have HPPD, but over the past several years the symptoms have markedly decreased. This leads me to posit that HPPD may not be entirely permanent, or may even be reversible (either of these could already have been proven to be true, I haven't really given those specific issues thought until thirty seconds ago! Forgive me!). Interesting areas for future research, though.

I believe I first developed HPPD the year that I joined Bluelight (which would have been 2003?). In 2006 I succumbed to the darkest depths of addiction and consequently spent the next two years completely sober from all mind- or mood-altering substances. During this period of abstinence from better living through chemistry (after an active 5-year stint as a chronic, daily polysubstance user), the HPPD ssssslllllooooowwwwllllyy began to diminish in what I'd call 'intensity.' It has now been six years since I first experienced HPPD and I would say the symptoms have decreased by roughly 10%, but at their lowest it was probably reduced by closer to 25%. It didn't take very long after going through a heavy period of use earlier this year for most of the symptoms of HPPD to re-flood my visual field.

Much in the same way some people come to see and recognize those "floaters" in the lens of their eye so often during life that they come to like them, so too have I developed a certain "relationship" with my 'modified' vision over the years. I think that I'd be a little upset (and a LOT more bored!) if all those cars' taillights stopped transfiguring into snakes and comets at night on the highway 8(

Anyway, I'd better get off this computer before the movement of the text begins to get to me :D lol

~ vaya

edit: just read the other replies. Interesting discussion so far. One last comment from me regarding the 'legitimacy' of HPPD: I can understand people's general skepticism. It can be daunting to consider the implications for someone who is literally 'tripping' all the time in a purely visual sense. But as someone else mentioned very wisely, those of us who DO have it, KNOW we have it.

I have only met one other person face-to-face in my ventures who shares this affliction. That lends support to the suggestion that was made about its infrequency in the general population.

 

[ShaolinBomber]

At the time I post this, 80% of people have responded that they do not have HPPD - which honestly doesn't surprise me. It also doesn't surprise me that the rate of HPPD here is so much higher relative to that of the general population; this is, after all, the "Psychedelic Drugs" forum of a chemical-based community %)

I responded 'yes' to the poll, because I do have HPPD, but over the past several years the symptoms have markedly decreased. This leads me to posit that HPPD may not be entirely permanent, or may even be reversible (either of these could already have been proven to be true, I haven't really given those specific issues thought until thirty seconds ago! Forgive me!). Interesting areas for future research, though.

I believe I first developed HPPD the year that I joined Bluelight (which would have been 2003?). In 2006 I succumbed to the darkest depths of addiction and consequently spent the next two years completely sober from all mind- or mood-altering substances. During this period of abstinence from better living through chemistry (after an active 5-year stint as a chronic, daily polysubstance user), the HPPD ssssslllllooooowwwwllllyy began to diminish in what I'd call 'intensity.' It has now been six years since I first experienced HPPD and I would say the symptoms have decreased by roughly 10%, but at their lowest it was probably reduced by closer to 25%. It didn't take very long after going through a heavy period of use earlier this year for most of the symptoms of HPPD to re-flood my visual field.

Much in the same way some people come to see and recognize those "floaters" in the lens of their eye so often during life that they come to like them, so too have I developed a certain "relationship" with my 'modified' vision over the years. I think that I'd be a little upset (and a LOT more bored!) if all those cars' taillights stopped transfiguring into snakes and comets at night on the highway 8(

Anyway, I'd better get off this computer before the movement of the text begins to get to me :D lol

~ vaya

edit: just read the other replies. Interesting discussion so far. One last comment from me regarding the 'legitimacy' of HPPD: I can understand people's general skepticism. It can be daunting to consider the implications for someone who is literally 'tripping' all the time in a purely visual sense. But as someone else mentioned very wisely, those of us who DO have it, KNOW we have it.

I have only met one other person face-to-face in my ventures who shares this affliction. That lends support to the suggestion that was made about its infrequency in the general population.

by the way, the reason hppd symptoms can recede and progress again i truely believe to be because of reinforced synaptic connections at visual circuits in the visual cortex. Letting this area settle down could explain why symptoms slowly start to diminish, but can come back since the rule for this theory to work is increased strength of weak excitatory synapses, changing them to strong excitatory synapses, rendering the constant inhibitory tone of the GABAb receptors and the fast inhibitory spikes of the GABAa receptors useless to the new strengthened excitation.

They already have studies out showing significant gene expression changes with use of MDMA and psychedelics. These all act at 5-ht2 subtypes, causing visual distortions, even regular 5-ht (serotonin) could cause overstimulation and forcing mRNA coding to change the soft transcription of genes, therefore changing the way the cell works or telling the neuron it needs to extend/reinforce/strengthen excitatory synaptic connections.

 

[Riemann Zeta]

I've been using psychedelics for a long time, accumulating experience with a wide-ranging list of various chemicals. And I've never had any sort of "flashback" [cue scary 1960s voice] symptoms or this HPPD they speak of.

 

[Vaya]

^As far as I'm concerned, "flashback" refers to a scare tactic used historically to suppress public drug experimentation.

H.P.P.D. refers to a disorder involving disturbances in the sober visual spectrum.
It is interesting to read the comments of so many who suggest those who claim to experience HPPD might have some conceivable reason to fabricate the existence of this disorder.

~ vaya

 

[B9]

The poll is a bit of a bollox. I voted yes because I can get visual disturbance when tripping every week or so - however I don't have HPPD because the visual disturbance ( VD :D ) dissipates after a "while".

 

[tathra]

^As far as I'm concerned, "flashback" refers to a scare tactic used historically to suppress public drug experimentation.

flashbacks are a psychological phenomenon. a person can have flashbacks from any intense experience, not just from drugs.

its possible that people who use psychedelics just notice visual disturbances more. i used to see shit in my visual field before i ever took a psychedelic for the first time. and after tripping hundreds of times on a whole lot of different substances, i can safely say that i dont have HPPD, although after i took DOI a few times, i kept seeing the 'persian rug' patterning for several days afterwards (maybe up to a week or 2 or more, i cant remember)

 

[busted bones]

What trips me out is that I will get redsiduals from acid for quite some time. However as soon as I shroom after doing acid they are gone. Doesnt matter if its a week or months later

 

[ShaolinBomber]

Flashbacks are just a remindance of a certain intense part of a past trip. It kinda sucks you into that mindset for a second or 2. HPPD is a phsyiological disorder stemming from the visual cortex. Its strictly a psychological and phsyiological alterations/adjustments in the visual cortex. HPPD is very real, and when you look at the research behind synaptic plasticity induced by modified soft coding gene expression, you have a pretty realistic situation in which synaptic plasticity from hallucinogens is COMMON, but the difference and mystery is why do some people have it for so long?

People who get it for a week or 2, people who get it after dropping once, people who did lsd for 10 years and then got it, all can be explained by reinforced excitatory pathways in the visual cortex. Increased volume and strength of glutamate afferents in response to a GABAergic interneuron with 5-ht2 receptors can easily lead to a constant state in which everytime an HPPD'er looks at something, these modified cells excite, and the visuals present themselves, much like what they do on a drug. Hallucinogens binds to and agonise 5-ht2 receptors, which are considered to be the source of the hallucinations. When you compare reinforced excitatory pathways on GABAergic neurons in an HPPD'er to someone who just took a hit or 2 of acid. The excitation is going to be similar. Im confident you would see excitation in the occipital, temporal , and parietal lobes of the brain, causing the circuity and feedback loops to uncouple, finally causing a destabilization of the visual cortex. This would be the peak of a hallucinogen trip.

But why do some people continue to see persistent visuals after the drug? Simple, synaptic plasticity via modified softcoding gene transcription.

 

[colorsinthevoid]

IIRC the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for HPPD requires visual distortions to significantly impair one or more aspects of someone's life in order for it to qualify as HPPD. I've been tripping for 5 years now on a variety of psychedelics (moderate to high doses of LSD, mushrooms, various phenethylamine and tryptamine RCs, etc) with usage fluctuating between semi-monthly and weekly, and never had any significant HPPD effects. Certainly my visual field is more prone to mild distortions (small movement in complex textures, etc) but never so much that it could be described as impairing me in any way.

I'd like it to stay that way :3

 

[any major dude]

The poll is a bit of a bollox. I voted yes because I can get visual disturbance when tripping every week or so - however I don't have HPPD because the visual disturbance ( VD :D ) dissipates after a "while".

I think there's a pretty large difference between visual irregularities and the DSM criteria for HPPD

 

[Qnick]

But why do some people continue to see persistent visuals after the drug? Simple, synaptic plasticity via modified softcoding gene transcription.

You start and end your argument with that description, but offer no real explanation as to what you mean.

circular logic ftw?

How are psychadelics related to "softcoding gene transcription"?

I thought most simply acted as agonists or antagonists at the receptor sites.

Edit:
And also, you have a lot of assumptions on brain activity that as far as I know isn't supported by an MRI of anyone with confirmed HPPD. I'm all for trying to figure this out, but you can't pass things off as fact without any data.

 

[ShaolinBomber]

You start and end your argument with that description, but offer no real explanation as to what you mean.

circular logic ftw?

How are psychadelics related to "softcoding gene transcription"?

I thought most simply acted as agonists or antagonists at the receptor sites.

Edit:
And also, you have a lot of assumptions on brain activity that as far as I know isn't supported by an MRI of anyone with confirmed HPPD. I'm all for trying to figure this out, but you can't pass things off as fact without any data.

Dr. Abraham did a scan of an HPPD'ers brain and it showed EXCESSIVE neuronal firing in the occipital, temporal, and parietal lobes.

http://amrglobal.powweb.com/hallucinogen-persisting-perception-disorder/beam2-enlarged

http://amrglobal.powweb.com/hallucinogen-persisting-perception-disorder/beam1-enlarged

And MDMA and psychedelics cause a release of gene modifying proteins that literally latch onto Ribonucleic strands and alter their make up, therefore changing the way a nucleus of a cell recieves and interprets information. this can lead to a number of things, including the neuron telling its dendritic branches to extend and attach to new areas of another neuron, perhaps excitatory synapses in the case of HPPD, since thats all you get with hallucinogens is extreme excitation and decoupling of the neuronal circuitry.

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v13n1/13124tho.html

"Because the predicted number of genes in a human is only 30-40,000, these two gene ÒchipsÓ may represent nearly half of the total genome! Results to date show that LSD induces expression changes in a relatively small but important collection of genes. Many of these genes influence the way neurons change physically to alter functional abilities in the brain. At least one of the genes is involved in the process of growth and differentiation of various cell types, and has been shown to be necessary for memory consolidation. A common theme of many of the genes regulated by LSD is the process of synaptic plasticity. The genes that LSD affects may thus play an important role in learning and the storage of memories."

 

[B9]

I think there's a pretty large difference between visual irregularities and the DSM criteria for HPPD

I'd agree - however the OP says this ->

I'm a bit curious about this as it seems most of the people who post here about HPPD either have it, or have some residual visual irregularities.

So I thought a third option "visual irregularities" might be useful.

 

[ShaolinBomber]

I'd agree - however the OP says this ->


So I thought a third option "visual irregularities" might be useful.

you either have HPPD or you dont. Regardless of what the DSM says, if you have lingering visual distortions that do not go away after drug use, you have persistent perceptual distortions. PPD for short?

This indicates that theres been relatively long lasting, perhaps permanent alterations made to your visual system in the brain. I think that constitutes as a neurogbiological disorder dont you?

 

[Qnick]

Thanks for the explanation Shaolin.

I'm a skeptic by nature, and I really appreciate you knowing your sources.

 

[gravitymonk]

I don't have HPPD, and have not noticed any residual visual disturbances at any point during the time I've used psychedelics or cannabis on a more or less regular basis. When I was tripping most frequently, I went through 500mg 2C-E, dosing weekly over a period of months. As far as visuals are concerned, I seem to experience them weakly, as a much lesser part of the trip than others. I did notice, however, that my perception of music changed in ways that are difficult to describe. :D

I voted "no."

 

[ShaolinBomber]

Thanks for the explanation Shaolin.

I'm a skeptic by nature, and I really appreciate you knowing your sources.

is this sarcasm?