How human rats killed the "RC" market (a rant)

[nuke]

I moved this to drug culture because it's not really advanced or science. It was mostly a romanticization of how things used to be and a criticism of how things are at this very moment. It is, fundamentally, a subculture phenomenon, and anyone who's been around subcultures for a reasonable period of time knows that someone who has been in the in for a while will eventually say, "Remember the good old days?"

And I do. I was around then, and it was mostly pretty okay. People were selling lots of psychedelics and making lots of money, kids were getting pretty high, then a few of them died and everything went to shit. Basically, there was a demand and the demand was so well met that a lot of people are now serving life sentences.

If anything, the market is exploding right with creativity in terms of venturing into new series of compounds, despite a few of them being highly addictive garbage. And it's probably set to get much bigger within the next decade. The people really in the private circle are still getting access to everything they were before, or so it seems, since PD is still exploding with threads.

The problem is not the sellers, or the demand from the users, or anything like that. It's law enforcement and illegalization. Remember prohibition? Remember people dropping like flies from methanol-contaminated booze? Remember stills exploding? Remember gangsters opening fire on eachother and not giving a shit whether they lived or died, let alone their customers? If there were a way to consume these compounds in a safe fashion, for instance, licensing programs or straight legalization, there would be none of this ridiculous hording of chemicals worrying about whether or not they'll be banned in a few years, or whether someone will be moronic and kill themselves with it and ruin it for everyone... And by the way, everyone who gets high is still just getting high, be it a chemist with a PhD or Burger King employee. The point isn't who should have it, the point is that everyone should be allowed to explore it if they so desire, just like anyone can go horseback riding or skydiving or rock climbing or any other number of extremely dangerous activities that could lead to a fatality. I've seen guys come out of the ER with herniated discs and hop back on their Harley's. If they're allowed to commence with their stupid shit, why shouldn't everyone else?

 

[Damien]

If there were a way to consume these compounds in a safe fashion, for instance, licensing programs or straight legalization, there would be none of this ridiculous hording of chemicals worrying about whether or not they'll be banned in a few years, or whether someone will be moronic and kill themselves with it and ruin it for everyone... And by the way, everyone who gets high is still just getting high, be it a chemist with a PhD or Burger King employee. The point isn't who should have it, the point is that everyone should be allowed to explore it if they so desire, just like anyone can go horseback riding or skydiving or rock climbing or any other number of extremely dangerous activities that could lead to a fatality. I've seen guys come out of the ER with herniated discs and hop back on their Harley's. If they're allowed to commence with their stupid shit, why shouldn't everyone else?

Amen.

 

[rpm]

Today drugs are disposable. 2CB, dead and gone. 2CT7, dead and gone. The 2c class, already dead after only a few years of life.

Dunno about that. In London it's as easy to get 2cb or 2ce as it is acid (which admitadly isn't super duper easy). When I was at Glade festival all I got offered was 2c-x. Didn't bring any MDMA because I thought I could get that easy, just acid, but none was to be found. So much so that after two days of triping (ended up buying 2ce, 2ci, 2cb and dmt) I was saying "fuck this, give me some normal drugs" (not my usual attidude btw). Oh, and I got offered DMT 5 times, which I thought was odd for a festival! Something that cracked me up on the last day was going around looking for something else, offering the DMT and 2CE I had left in exchange, everyone I met was doing the same thing!

Admitadly there was a bit of mephedrone going around, so the whole beta-ketones replacing MDMA thing is probably true.

I think the 2cs, particularly 2cb, have simply entered the normal illicit drugs market (which does mean that you don't know exactly what you're getting.

 

[jamaica0535]

its rather easy to get a number of various psychedelics if you know where to look.....

 

[Jamshyd]

So what do you think of the average Joe, who doesn't have the time to bury his head in a chemistry book for years but would still like to sample MDPV? Is this person not worthy of this experience? I'm all for keeping things alive, well, on the low low and out of "kids" hands but at the same time I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to the "culture" I guess you could say.

This has no relevance to my rant since my rant was mostly about the items in demand and the items in supply, not who uses them or who sells them.

I don't know, your whole rant is just very condescending in my opinion.

It is indeed, because it is a rant . That said, you should only feel condescended if you consider yourself part of the process I am criticizing.

I see where you're coming from but at the same time I think there are a lot of us who would like to use these drugs responsibly. I think it's unfair to lump everyone into one group of consumers.

Again, I am not really making any point about who and who isn't "worthy" of using. I am talking about the way things have come to be in general. I think you misunderstood much of what I meant to say, but I admit my opening post wasn't best written. Try reading my 2nd post for a better idea.

How are consumers making money by buying these substances?

I never said such thing. Read my post more carefully .

This whole rant just smacks of elitism.

Because you misunderstood it entirely.

 

[Jamshyd]

I moved this to drug culture because it's not really advanced or science. It was mostly a romanticization of how things used to be and a criticism of how things are at this very moment. It is, fundamentally, a subculture phenomenon, and anyone who's been around subcultures for a reasonable period of time knows that someone who has been in the in for a while will eventually say, "Remember the good old days?"

facepalm.jpg

Please don't get me wrong. I am not romanticising "the old RC market".

And I do. I was around then, and it was mostly pretty okay. People were selling lots of psychedelics and making lots of money, kids were getting pretty high, then a few of them died and everything went to shit. Basically, there was a demand and the demand was so well met that a lot of people are now serving life sentences.

An exploitive market is an expoitive market, that is a given. I will not claim to have known anything of the free love of early days, but the point is that it is NOT the market itself that I am lamenting, but rather the shit that is in circulation these days.

I realize all the faults you describe in the market of 8 years ago. The thing is, back then, there was at least a sense that, at least a few people out there, had some interest in bringing some novelty and magic into the world - I am talking about consumer demand here.

If anything, the market is exploding right with creativity in terms of venturing into new series of compounds, despite a few of them being highly addictive garbage. And it's probably set to get much bigger within the next decade. The people really in the private circle are still getting access to everything they were before, or so it seems, since PD is still exploding with threads.

Just look at the very forum you mod. It is RAMPANT with dopaminergics-concerned threads. Obsessively so. (Note that this is why I chose it to post this there). There may be a few other things floating around, but the majority of people now seem to be completely under the lull of somekind of dopaminergic spell. Quite frankly, it's disgusting.

The problem is not the sellers, or the demand from the users, or anything like that. It's law enforcement and illegalization. Remember prohibition? Remember people dropping like flies from methanol-contaminated booze? Remember stills exploding? Remember gangsters opening fire on eachother and not giving a shit whether they lived or died, let alone their customers? If there were a way to consume these compounds in a safe fashion, for instance, licensing programs or straight legalization, there would be none of this ridiculous hording of chemicals worrying about whether or not they'll be banned in a few years, or whether someone will be moronic and kill themselves with it and ruin it for everyone... And by the way, everyone who gets high is still just getting high, be it a chemist with a PhD or Burger King employee.

I simply refuse to believe that prohibition is what leads people to take stims to discuss new stims with other people on stims so that more people can make more stims and go online and talk about stims. I just don't see the relationship there.

The point isn't who should have it, the point is that everyone should be allowed to explore it if they so desire, just like anyone can go horseback riding or skydiving or rock climbing or any other number of extremely dangerous activities that could lead to a fatality. I've seen guys come out of the ER with herniated discs and hop back on their Harley's. If they're allowed to commence with their stupid shit, why shouldn't everyone else?

See my reply to damien.

p.s. I am quite offended by the fact that it took you exactly 12 seconds to discard my thread from your forum while you neglected some more urgent business (see reports forum for details, p. 3 or 4). Maybe you didn't mean it, though.

 

[nuke]

I'm just gonna point to this Chuck Palahniuk quote: “Amphetamines are the most American drug. You get so much done. You look terrific, and your middle name is Accomplishment.”

In the end that's what it comes down to, people are looking at drugs that they perceive will make them more successful or having a better time while doing more. Hardly anyone these days is out for some religious experience that changes the way their perceive the world, and it's been like that for a while now. Because you don't like stimulants, or don't think they're useful, doesn't mean other people feel differently. Drugs are entirely a matter of taste, and really I like to consider myself tolerant of all this stimulant talk.

p.s. I am quite offended by the fact that it took you exactly 12 seconds to discard my thread from your forum while you neglected some more urgent business (see reports forum for details, p. 3 or 4). Maybe you didn't mean it, though.

Okay, if you really want something done, since I hardly check reported posts, just message me. I've mentioned this before. Yes the gabapentin-like compounds thread was getting retarded but I really honestly didn't want to close it because I felt, maybe somewhere out there, someone had an interesting reply (which Murphy did, eventually). I don't really care if someone writes one post of useless drivel in the thread because I do believe in free speech and you can just skip over it. It doesn't bother me at all (although if the thread itself is about something stupid I will close it).

 

[Tryptamine*Dreamer]

I still mostly buy psychedelics and only rarely the stims. I'd consider mephedrone to be sort of an empathogen, just weaker at it than MDMA.

 

[treezy z]

i've never bought an rc because they're pretty much all analogues in the US other than some piperazines, stimulants, and cannabinoids.

i would dig it if legal psychedelics were available, a gram of mdpv at 4mg a dose = 250 doses which sounds like 4 days no sleep to me which is crap. (i can NEVER stop stimulants until they run out or i heavily sedate myself..)

the cannabinoid i see available is jwh-018 which i enjoy but is rumored to cause cancer and some people say illegal in the u.s.

i may order meopp or jwh-018 at some point, everything else sounds like crap or illegal.

 

[Damien]

Really? Shame on you people for being such rampant consumers of all this shit. Yes YOU. YOU drive the market for these things. The desire to make money overrides the desire to bring something beautiful to the world, and it is because of YOUR rampant consumption that the market is now innundated with all sorts of useless shit.

Now consumer demand seems to be focussed squarely on amphetamine/cocaine mimics...

So back to my original argument - the problem these days is the CONSUMERS that are the bigger problem (with a shocking percentage of them under 20, to add insult to injury). Vendors have always been exploitive, that's a given.

This has no relevance to my rant since my rant was mostly about the items in demand and the items in supply, not who uses them or who sells them.

_________________________________________________________________________

Really? Shame on you people for being such rampant consumers of all this shit. Yes YOU. YOU drive the market for these things. The desire to make money overrides the desire to bring something beautiful to the world, and it is because of YOUR rampant consumption that the market is now innundated with all sorts of useless shit.

How are consumers making money by buying these substances?

I never said such thing. Read my post more carefully

I am confused lol

 

[Jamshyd]

^ I don't know what the first three are supposed to mean. This isn't facey-pasty damien. I can get a bunch of a person's quotes out of context and confuse myself.

Now, as for the second one - yes, I still never said that consumers are making money themselves. I am saying that the sellers are making money out of it.

 

[Jamshyd]

I'm just gonna point to this Chuck Palahniuk quote: “Amphetamines are the most American drug. You get so much done. You look terrific, and your middle name is Accomplishment.”

In the end that's what it comes down to, people are looking at drugs that they perceive will make them more successful or having a better time while doing more. Hardly anyone these days is out for some religious experience that changes the way their perceive the world, and it's been like that for a while now. Because you don't like stimulants, or don't think they're useful, doesn't mean other people feel differently. Drugs are entirely a matter of taste, and really I like to consider myself tolerant of all this stimulant talk.

OH so you DO agree with me that today's consumers are mostly a bunch of brainless, lever-pressing rats. Thank you.

Okay, if you really want something done, since I hardly check reported posts, just message me. I've mentioned this before. Yes the gabapentin-like compounds thread was getting retarded but I really honestly didn't want to close it because I felt, maybe somewhere out there, someone had an interesting reply (which Murphy did, eventually). I don't really care if someone writes one post of useless drivel in the thread because I do believe in free speech and you can just skip over it. It doesn't bother me at all (although if the thread itself is about something stupid I will close it).

See PM.

 

[pofacedhoe]

facepalm.jpg




I simply refuse to believe that prohibition is what leads people to take stims to discuss new stims with other people on stims so that more people can make more stims and go online and talk about stims. I just don't see the relationship there. [/color]

[/color]

ha ha LOL my stimdick


as for lever pressing rats who isn't? yes there are a lot of dopaminergics but what makes people so obsessed with the dopamine system is that its a rewarding experience and that dopamine is a part of everyday reward (naturally survival), this makes craving dopamine stimulation an everyday desire while psychedelics are not such an everyday desire. also we exist because of dopamine based orgasms (not serotonergic anorgasmia)-hijack the very reason you exist and you have a popular thing going on

also stim's tend to be loosly marketed as party toys(weekend use) where'as depressants (often used in mild everyday doses-like oxycodone or xanax) and dissociatives (often rendering the user into a state not fit for going out-khole). stim's just can be marketed as party use and unlike depressants where loss of conciousness might not be felt (before something very serious occurs) take too much of a stimulant and you will know about it (and probably be awake to remember the mistake).

 

[delic]

Why pcp analogs over ketamine?

Its the fault of the market, the caveat being prohibition makes it much more difficult to supply the market with variety.

I asked the 4MeOPCP vendor this question and he said it was all based on the expected potency/profit, though it seemed that the 4MeOPCP turned out not to be much more (or even as?) potent than ketamine. From the description people posted of the 4MeOPCP (back when champlegals forum existed) it sounded extremely impure, and I wonder if the pure material would be significantly more potent?

I don't know why this area is so quiet. I've always suspected it is because of the enormously negative stigma associated with PCP thanks to the media. As ketamine continues to collect more fanatics, I expect we'll see EPCH come along at any time. Strange how saying EPCH is an analog of an anesthetic for children and frail people makes it sound alright.

 

[|>R()|)!G/-\|_]

All I know is this thread made me think of 2c-BZP, wtf?

 

[hugo24]

Would the fact that the US government realized that there is an RC market have to do with anything?

-What an evel thought man!



-elitism versus sheeple mentality and the good adventurous honest beginning going decadent and evil: wanna change the way of nature? Everything has a life,starts fresh,young and adventurous/riskhungry,grows up,gets mature and a bit more responsible,then starts to get old,gets complacent,decays,corrupts until it dies.You'll find that "life-cycle" fractal everywhere you're looking,while I sometimes get extremely angry and sorrrowed about the later stages,I never question the laws of cycles.The angryness is just part of those stages (possibly making way to something new after the inevitable death) and if you're angry,it tells me you do CARE which is our most precious duty.Indifference woud be the wrong thing.

-and,to the list my growing sorrows comes the fact that the human race is degrading rapidly-yes there's talk of the end of civilisation as we know it,and in quite high circles I know.The western society has been the highest culture I'm aware of,but it reached its apex.Down,it usually goes way faster.

-but then,maybe,after trying out the bad chemicals,the RC market might get a new twist again into a more sane direction,onto new frontiers again?Starting with THE new book of Sasha? Fully separating the RC scene again from the broad illicit drug scene.

-and why not a bit elitism? The everything-is-the-same nihilism our society suffers? A society which does not want to rate anything anymore,has given up on itself (rating for example ethic/unethic behaviour,to show where I'm coming from).If you think all are the same,it literally asks for the numb herd to chime in with all the consequences-you always get what you want!!
And your demonstrative mocking of elitism,isn't that itself sort of an elitism? Ah Dr. House is at it again

-2-ethylamino-2-phenylcyclohexanone: why this obsession with the ketone? PCE is excreted fast enough I think (way lower lipophilicity,easier metabolisation of the amine part...) and frankly,I don't like the idea of ketones/free carbonyls in my body much.Hey,and remember how "great" Tiletamine was???Check out its structure! Plain old PCP is so much better,and please disregard the propaganda once and for all- to quote f&b "something tells me that PCP has suffered from the worst smear campaign of any recreationa/drug of abuse"- .Uh,and from the sparse infos I gather on PCE,it looks like a decent euphoric compound.Yes its extremely hard to get any reliable first hand human data on even the simplest dissos like Rolicyclidin,TCP,PCE! Ideology is detrimental to searching for a target.

-frankly,because of the recent decay of the RC market, I'm hesitating a bit to give out anymore infos on the new dissociatives,what I def. not want this to become Another MDMA story which took tens of years to become at least a bit recognised as a legitimate treatment again.But I'm not saying the years of prohibition didn't bless many people with an uncomparable therapeutic value,not at all (I'm one of them)

-uh,the 4-MeO-PCP is not pure?I always wondered why you need 400mg or what,this itself is an insane dose just by weight asking for troubles by a shitload of emerging unselectivities.I wouln't be surprised that it contained a lot of the nitrile precursor,not too healthy,hello aftereffects! Analytics for this is difficult,and when taking a too low amount of Grignard (profit!)/not dry reaction etc., incomplete reaction is logic. *Analytics: best do it with TLC and detect it with Dragendorff spray! But the TLC solutions are quite unstable so you could provide false negatives.

 

[rangrz]

because dopaminergics are fun and sertogenics are kind of fail.

outgoing, social and confidant vs cold, hidden under a blanket and out of touch with reality.

 

[felix]

ITT: Jammy laments his inability to score any 2C-X's?

there's still a lot more going on in the RC market than the few drugs you mentioned in post 1.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

^lol

And the saddest part is that none of these abominations have had anything to offer - postive or negative - that plain old dex-Amphetamine didn't.

Shenanigans. I've only tried Mephedrone of the stimulants listed, but it is a FAR more useful tool for empathogenic purposes than d-amp could ever hope to become. Meph, also, feels a lot better than d-amp (healthier? no, but that's irrelevant).

 

[Roger&Me]

Today drugs are disposable. 2CB, dead and gone. 2CT7, dead and gone. The 2c class, already dead after only a few years of life.

What you talkin' bout, Willis? 2C-T-7 is very available, along with most other 2C's (even 2C-B). And I'm talking about easily available, not just to those with awesome connections.