How human rats killed the "RC" market (a rant)

[Jamshyd]

A decade ago, the "RC" market was booming. It was inundated with all sorts of wonderous things (mostly psychedelics), many of which has had a visibly positive impact on the lives of thousands.

I know, for example, that DPT had cured me of a spell of suicidal ideation, and I never got back to that, and never needed to use DPT again.

And now? Let's see what the buzz is all about.

MDPV. Mephedrone. Methadrone. Flephedrone (lol). Florocaine (or whatever you call that now). Desoxypiperadole. Blah blah blah.

And at least ten other dopaminergics that I don't care to list.

What do all these things have in common? They are the kind of thing that rats keep pressing levers to get more.

And instead of all the glowing trip-reports of positively-changed lives we used to get back then, now we get reports about psychotic episodes, heart palpitations, and outright insanity.

And the saddest part is that none of these abominations have had anything to offer - postive or negative - that plain old dex-Amphetamine didn't.

Really? Shame on you people for being such rampant consumers of all this shit. Yes YOU. YOU drive the market for these things. The desire to make money overrides the desire to bring something beautiful to the world, and it is because of YOUR rampant consumption that the market is now innundated with all sorts of useless shit.

 

[nuke]

It's just really an issue of demand.

I think I'm moving this to drug culture, though.

 

[Jamshyd]

It IS an issue of demand, and THAT's what I find horrible.

Why DC of all places?!? The people who are mostly interested in the subject usually post in ADD!

 

[Tchort]

The original internet RC market was mostly run by American and Canadian psychonauts. After sweeps like Operation Web Tryp, the market was a vacuum, and some very clever people stepped in and began selling horribly marked up compulsive stimulants- generally from overseas.

It could be argued that the market you speak of was the original corrupt RC market. In the annals of 20 year old txt files, there are stories of psychonauts on dial-up BBS mailing LSD to one another for free.

Coming from that era, the RC market as it existed 5-8 years ago is an abomination due to the high profit margins by the people involved, and the reckless disregard for their customers (Web Tryp was the result of numerous deaths and hospitalizations from drugs like DPT, the vendors were answering e-mails from people about how much to take to get fucked up, many of whom were underrage highschool students.

The RC market is why we have Piperizines instead of MDMA. Pipes were RC specialties before they were picked up by criminal syndicates.

Interesting side note- there is text file that used to be on Rhodium that speculated on substituted beta ketones (like bk-MDMA and co) years before they hit the market. Post what you want to buy online, and maybe in a few years it'll come true.

 

[Jamshyd]

Please don't get me wrong. I am not romanticising "the old RC market".

An exploitive market is an expoitive market, that is a given. I will not claim to have known anything of the free love of early days, but the point is that it is NOT the market itself that I am lamenting, but rather the shit that is in circulation these days.

I realize all the faults you describe in the market of 8 years ago. The thing is, back then, there was at least a sense that, at least a few people out there, had some interest in bringing some novelty and magic into the world - I am talking about consumer demand here.

Now consumer demand seems to be focussed squarely on amphetamine/cocaine mimics (and the ocasional opioid, which managed to leave several people in puddles of their own blood). There is absolutely nothing novel (besides chemistry, that is) about the twenty or so new stimulants that came out in the last few years. They have proven to be JUST as bad as existing stims, at least psychologically, if not worse (I present to you the TR and ADD forums with all the loopiness of Dysoxy and MDPV and the pustulating sores of mephedrone).

So back to my original argument - the problem these days is the CONSUMERS that are the bigger problem (with a shocking percentage of them under 20, to add insult to injury). Vendors have always been exploitive, that's a given.

 

[Lost and Confused]

*picks up internet-wishing-ball*

I wiiiish fooor...non-addictive, euphoria enducing painkillers that can be IV'd with a needle that leaves no marks.

*shake* *shake* *shake*



...*waits*

 

[MurphyClox]

Post what you want to buy online, and maybe in a few years it'll come true.

This should indeed be in ADD. Just my 2 cent

Anway. This last point of Tchort is one of higher importance IMHO.
It was not always my opinion - but it is now! - that some compounds should remain undiscussed/unnamed/unpublished (i.e. in forums like Bluelight). The broad public just does not deserve what others have worked out meticulously, often risking their own health on the search for previously untested entities with a desirable profile of action.
I almost never read anything outside of ADD and absolutely never post outside ADD, but it is my honest impression that the majority of drug users does NOT seek wisdom or knowledge but just the fastest way to get their kick.

Sorry folks, but for my sake, these idiots do not deserve it. They've done nothing to get these compounds to "life" but they do literally everything to put them to death. That's exactly what I distilled out of Jamshyd's (btw very appreciated) post. The common drug users don't care a fuck. They don't care if a drug will be available in 5 years, even if they wish so. Exploitation at its best.

Sad, fucking sad, to say the least.

- Murphy

 

[MurphyClox]

There is absolutely nothing novel (besides chemistry, that is) about the twenty or so new stimulants that came out in the last few years.

Nah, not even the chemistry is exciting in many cases. Just as a sidenote...

 

[Tchort]

Similar arguments were made in the late '60s when they say that Amphetamines and Heroin killed the hippies. Instead of the humanism of LSD, DOM, Cannabis, etc, the swarms of latecomers (middle class youth) picked up the hedonistic and destructive pills & powders, which ended the entire culture.

The same thing seems to have happened with the rave culture. MDMA, Ketamine and LSD give way to dopaminergics from filthy third world labs.

Based on these examples, maybe it simply isn't possible in an era of prohibition to keep something positive alive in a drug subculture. Eventually word gets out, the masses of borgoisie kids want in on the fun after hearing about it on the news, and turn it into a commercial empire of exploitation and hedonism.

I suppose all you can do is be on the lookout for the next subculture that offers the same promise as the folk music, freedom movement of the '60s, and the dance music scene of the '80s/'90s- and I guess you can add the original community of psychonauts who used the internet to network a global spread in novel psychadelics.

 

[Jamshyd]

[reply to Murph's post]

Thanks for the nice post murphy.

I forgot to comment on Tchort's last point. Besides what murphy said, I will present to you the case of Ketamine analogues (as an example). There is a sizeable groups of people who are genuinely interested in the subject of Ketamine therapy (myself included obviously) and about arylcyclohexamine SARs. The subject has been beaten to death and brought up, down, left, and right over AT LEAST the last 7 years.

And yet, no Ketamine analogue has ever surfaced, AFAIK. In fact, if I get it right, the one time there was a chance for that to happen, it was eclipsed by that vile MDPV shit.

Only now, just now, there seems to be a glimmer of hope in something remotely close to a Ketamine analogue. But we're still in the stone age.

 

[Jamshyd]

Similar arguments were made in the late '60s when they say that Amphetamines and Heroin killed the hippies. Instead of the humanism of LSD, DOM, Cannabis, etc, the swarms of latecomers (middle class youth) picked up the hedonistic and destructive pills & powders, which ended the entire culture.

The same thing seems to have happened with the rave culture. MDMA, Ketamine and LSD give way to dopaminergics from filthy third world labs.

Based on these examples, maybe it simply isn't possible in an era of prohibition to keep something positive alive in a drug subculture. Eventually word gets out, the masses of borgoisie kids want in on the fun after hearing about it on the news, and turn it into a commercial empire of exploitation and hedonism.

I suppose all you can do is be on the lookout for the next subculture that offers the same promise as the folk music, freedom movement of the '60s, and the dance music scene of the '80s/'90s- and I guess you can add the original community of psychonauts who used the internet to network a global spread in novel psychadelics.

You do make a very reasonable point in your historic outline.

I don't know about hope, though. hehe.

 

[MistaJeff]

Would the fact that the US government realized that there is an RC market have to do with anything?

 

[joshmow56]

The same thing seems to have happened with the rave culture. MDMA, Ketamine and LSD give way to dopaminergics from filthy third world labs.

Well in the UK at least, the total lack of any good MDMA over the past 12 months has fuelled the dopaminergic market.

 

[Tchort]

This should indeed be in ADD. Just my 2 cent

Anway. This last point of Tchort is one of higher importance IMHO.
It was not always my opinion - but it is now! - that some compounds should remain undiscussed/unnamed/unpublished (i.e. in forums like Bluelight). The broad public just does not deserve what others have worked out meticulously, often risking their own health on the search for previously untested entities with a desirable profile of action.
I almost never read anything outside of ADD and absolutely never post outside ADD, but it is my honest impression that the majority of drug users does NOT seek wisdom or knowledge but just the fastest way to get their kick.

Sorry folks, but for my sake, these idiots do not deserve it. They've done nothing to get these compounds to "life" but they do literally everything to put them to death. That's exactly what I distilled out of Jamshyd's (btw very appreciated) post. The common drug users don't care a fuck. They don't care if a drug will be available in 5 years, even if they wish so. Exploitation at its best.

Sad, fucking sad, to say the least.

- Murphy

Drugs have changed. 1940- 3 drugs of concern. Heroin, Cocaine, Marijuana. 1960- several dozen drugs of concern. Synthetic opioids. Amphetamines, LSD, Mescaline, etc. 1970- Hundreds of prescription drugs become standard drugs of abuse outside regional pockets. Sedatives, stimulants, pain killers. The origin ofthe designer drug market.

Today drugs are disposable. 2CB, dead and gone. 2CT7, dead and gone. The 2c class, already dead after only a few years of life.

Pretty soon the Piperizines will be dead and gone.

It's simply another product of prohibition. Due to drug laws, new and ever more dangerous compounds are being thrown onto the open market for mass consumption, and then replaced with new, less understood or studied compounds, and so on.

Instead of just a few, or a dozen, or a hundred drugs of concern, now there are potentially hundreds of thousands or more.

Whether or not the Hive, let alone Bluelight, ever put novel compounds online that hadn't been considered for the market is irrelevant. There are now professionally trained and educated chemists in India, China, the former Soviet Bloc who are in charge. It's out of your hands entirely.

We're way passed the days when the Hive puts out text files concerning beta ketones and 5 years later they hit the RC market.

It's also why Mephedrone, MDPV and co are showing up as street drugs sold by corner dealers in Europe. This grey market complex has become a living machine- regardless of its origins, it is destined to pump out many more potentially toxic and deadly compounds to be taken recklessly by children with an internet connection.

And the state? GBL & BZP being considered for control in the UK? The Western powers have no idea what they have spawned.

And just like the hippies and the ravers, and then the psychonauts- everything was gravy when you had a handful of intelligent people experimenting with compounds behind closed doors. When you open up the masses, hell follows regardless of what those with good intentions want to accomplish.

 

[delta_9]

it is destined to pump out many more potentially toxic and deadly compounds to be taken recklessly by children with an internet connection.

And the pharmaceutical companies dont do this?

I dont think the vendors are to blaim here, at least not entirely. I'm of the firm belief that personal responsibility trumps everything else. No on has to use these drugs and if they do it's their own fault. Everywhere I go I see cigarette advertisements and people smoking, but you dont see me lighting up.
Just because something is available or "in your face" dosen't mean you have to succumb to it, and if you do you have no one to blame for yourself.

Jamshyd, I definately understand your concern here.
However, I do think it's wrong to assume that psychedelics like DO*s/2c-*s are somehow "safer" than these new dopaminergic drugs. Sure, my gut tells me that of course the serotonergic psychedelics are safer, but these drugs are RCs because we dont know much about them. And we certainly dont know how they affect the human body in the long term.

 

[Damien]

So what do you think of the average Joe, who doesn't have the time to bury his head in a chemistry book for years but would still like to sample MDPV? Is this person not worthy of this experience? I'm all for keeping things alive, well, on the low low and out of "kids" hands but at the same time I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to the "culture" I guess you could say.

I don't know, your whole rant is just very condescending in my opinion. I see where you're coming from but at the same time I think there are a lot of us who would like to use these drugs responsibly. I think it's unfair to lump everyone into one group of consumers.

Really? Shame on you people for being such rampant consumers of all this shit. Yes YOU. YOU drive the market for these things. The desire to make money overrides the desire to bring something beautiful to the world, and it is because of YOUR rampant consumption that the market is now innundated with all sorts of useless shit.

How are consumers making money by buying these substances?
This whole rant just smacks of elitism.

 

[RedLeader]

The original internet RC market was mostly run by American and Canadian psychonauts. After sweeps like Operation Web Tryp, the market was a vacuum, and some very clever people stepped in and began selling horribly marked up compulsive stimulants- generally from overseas.

It could be argued that the market you speak of was the original corrupt RC market. In the annals of 20 year old txt files, there are stories of psychonauts on dial-up BBS mailing LSD to one another for free.

Coming from that era, the RC market as it existed 5-8 years ago is an abomination due to the high profit margins by the people involved, and the reckless disregard for their customers (Web Tryp was the result of numerous deaths and hospitalizations from drugs like DPT, the vendors were answering e-mails from people about how much to take to get fucked up, many of whom were underrage highschool students.

The RC market is why we have Piperizines instead of MDMA. Pipes were RC specialties before they were picked up by criminal syndicates.

Interesting side note- there is text file that used to be on Rhodium that speculated on substituted beta ketones (like bk-MDMA and co) years before they hit the market. Post what you want to buy online, and maybe in a few years it'll come true.

This. While I understand your anger Jammy, this sums the reality up quite well.

 

[azzazza !?]

is it dead already? /puts on robe

Requiem æternam dona eis, Domine;
In memoria æterna erit justus,
ab auditione mala non timebit.

it seemed to me like the dopaminergic money cows for leaver-pressers are still somewhat disassociated from the (former?) core business. while i do agree with them, i recall these type of sentiments being there even before web tryp. drug misuse comes with their being any market. true, these dopaminergics and synthetic cannabinoids are bound to lead to a larger consumer base. but on the other hand we see some market segmentation beginning to manifest regarding things like mephedrone/mdpv. the geist of the 'true' (for lack of a better term) psychedelic community (ie. the ones seeking knowledge instead of cheap thrills/escapism) is quite .. erm.. self-referential/self-reflective. its engrossed within itself. because of that it has as a somewhat natural tendency to keep the ratlike at arms length (with a shitty stick™). it seems like it needs some time to balance itself out.

 

[kong]

When I first got into this it seemed like 20 new compounds would surface a year. Given that there are still many known psy drugs waiting to be brought to market I wonder what people with capability to do so are doing. Making mephedrone?

As a libertarian I can only complain so much, I'm sure custom synthesis is readily available for a price.

Didn't pan out exactly how I thought. Plenty of illegal stuff gets made anyway so where are easy things like dmmda-2 or mmda etc...or the fly series, det, or 2c-t. Its like the phenethyamine market is frozen in time

Why pcp analogs over ketamine?

Its the fault of the market, the caveat being prohibition makes it much more difficult to supply the market with variety.

 

[Rectify]

I'd like to see 2-ethylamino-2-phenylcyclohexanone on the research chemical market so that I could try it maybe.

I imagine epch to be dark and seductive in nature.