☮ Social ☮ How do YOU feel about Leary, the McKennas and Shulgins, RamDass/Alpert, Kesey, etc.?

[Neuroborean]

I have a hard time respecting a self-absorbed bitch-ass snitch. Fuck that guy.

I think you read(ed) uncorrectly, Mckenna is the philosopher, not Leary...

 

[perpetualdawn]

I'm a big fan of Alan Watts. Not mentioned in the title, but from the same batch of folks.

I don't know too much about Kesey tbh, but I did get to see and go inside the bus one time. That felt very special, like going into the Taj Mahal.

I don't have much to add re the others, but on Leary: if I was alive at the time and could have compelled him to shut up, I would have. But on the balance, I'm not so sure he was the bad guy. He had devilish ego streaks no doubt, but I think in some ways he was just the figurehead of the movement, and the scapegoat when things soured. I can't say for sure the world would have been a better place without him, and I do suspect it would have been worse off without him. Hard to judge. Anyways it was all before my time, so I can only imagine anyways.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

I respect most of their work even knowing they were all most likely part of Mkultra in one way or another.

 

[unodelacosa]

I respect most of their work even knowing they were all most likely part of Mkultra in one way or another.

Oh I doubt that. The timelines don't overlap so well for some of them. And then for instance the feds had a large dossier on Tim Leary. Generally speaking, and despite being a piece-of-shit snitch, the feds / law enforcement did not like Leary as he came across like a condescending prick to them.

Also, Terence McKenna's end of the world / Mayan calendar prediction for the year 2012 was obviously some horseshit… I'm just saying.

 

[anti_MK]

I liked at McKenna, the passage of his book on the industrial revolution doped / permitted by stimulants (tobacco, coffee, chocolate, tea, sugar).

Also the passage where he says that the TV is like a hard drug.

Shulgin worked for a company that produced napalm and "agent orange" during the Vietnam war and many pesticides / herbicides. He would also have been part of the Bohemian club...

 

[lonelyDude]

Yeah but come on, compared to Plato, any philosopher can appear to be lackluster. That's like comparing flashlights to the sun.

I had to lay it on thick im dealing with people who turn temporary madness into religion

David E Nichols I will say has invented a lot of drugs hoffman stumbled over LSD but neither wrote two books about there synth and then got

screwed by the DEA trying to make sure the world knew about there drugs.

they are both great chemists but shulgin is one of us and he chose not to stand up on a podium and broadcast his dreams and nightmares as spirtual fact.

something I think says a lot about his motives and about many others.

david decided to close his research from the public (cant say I blame him)

hoffman decided to complain about his research.

shulgin embraced it.

the bear and some of the others were just acid cooks.

 

[unodelacosa]

David E Nichols I will say has invented a lot of drugs hoffman stumbled over LSD but neither wrote two books about there synth and then got screwed by the DEA trying to make sure the world knew about there drugs.

Just a reminder: getting screwed by the DEA is not a good thing. It belies naivety and foolish overconfidence.

Hofmann had recurring dreams about LSD-25 for five years during WWII in Switzerland before finally trying it himself and immediately seeing the potential. He also elucidated for us psilocybin & psilocin in psilocybe mushrooms and successfully synthesized it in his lab. Furthermore, it indeed caused him many problems as outlined in his seminal drug-book classic, LSD: My Problem Child.

As for Nichols, he's done some amazing research for Parkinson's, not to mention the contributions to psychedelic research. He's published a ton of his research and work as have his colleagues who worked under him at Purdue. He's just a guy who believes in changing the system from the inside…

they are both great chemists but shulgin is one of us and he chose not to stand up on a podium and broadcast his dreams and nightmares as spirtual fact.

He literally stood on a podium and gave university lectures and published two massive tomes filled with chemistry how-to knowledge and insight into hundreds of psychoactive drugs. At the very least he had the decency not to be a motherfucking snitch like that douche nozzle Leary. But, it's worth noting: Shulgin did provide expert testimony to the Feds. I understand he was only telling the truth and had to do this in order to hold his license, but still…

hoffman decided to complain about his research.

Rightfully so. Shulgin complained, too.

shulgin embraced it.

Not exactly. I recall him being quite conflicted on these subjects in PiHKAL and TiHKAL. The fiasco involving DOM (STP) in the late 60s really bothered Sasha, much the same way the deaths associated with 25x-NBOMe drugs bothered Dave Nichols.

the bear and some of the others were just acid cooks.

That wasn't cool. That's a really shitty view. By that same token I could write-off Shulgin as having been just another hippie drug cook…

Truth is: your so-called tourists were actually influential clandestine chemists and pivotal players in the psychedelic revolution of the 1960s and 1970s. They were bravely doing us all a service where the risk mostly outweighed the reward when analyzed on a personal level. Most of them took one for the team. Except that Benedict Arnold snake in the grass piece of shit stool pigeon, Tim Leary. Motherfuck that clown.

Meanwhile, you don't actually think Dr. Shulgin did all that independent research himself, do you? He had a lot of help from people like Darrell LeMaire. As the DEA license-holder, he knew that he was allowing himself to be made a target and tried to maintain a friendly relationship with the agency, which, ultimately, probably was a mistake. But hindsight is 20/20. But while others took giant risks with their freedoms, Shulgin sat safely behind his license for decades. Anyone willing to risk their own freedom like this deserves some modicum of respect.

Deify the late doctor if you wish, but I don't see him as a martyr. The books were retailed for profit, and they helped establish his clout. I mean, it's not like he was operating as an altruist. He was a pioneering psychedelic researcher who illuminated and explored many compounds and shared his findings with us, but he was also fortunate enough to have a very rare set of circumstances to allow this to happen. A lot of right place at the right time. It makes me wonder how many people have been in similarly rare circumstances but chose to keep it to themselves and the world never knew any better…

The concept of unique or rare circumstances for wildly successful people is explored in Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers. It's a fascinating read.

 

[Nas47]

Don't know who is right or wrong.I Like McKenna's books,don't like Leary 'cause from a scientist he became some media guru and has his guilt about all negative conotations hangin'around psych.drugs in mass consiousness,Kessey is great.Grear writer&incredible characterThe biggest for me from beatniks generation writers.Shulgin is interesting...never read Tihcal or Pihcal......just some quotes.He and his wife are fundament of psych.culture.Ramm Dass&Richard?Alpert.....can't remember nothing about these,except there were integral part of the same psych.cultute.

 

[unodelacosa]

Don't know who is right or wrong.

It's all fairly fact-checkable.

I Like McKenna's books

Honestly, I do too. Dennis McKenna is an academic, but Terence shot himself in the foot with some of his crackpot theories, but regardless, he was a sweet, kind, and caring man, and I very much enjoyed his books and lectures when I was younger.

don't like Leary 'cause from a scientist he became some media guru and has his guilt about all negative conotations hangin'around psych.drugs in mass consiousness,

He started off as a scientist and turned into Master Splinter from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And what was Master Splinter? That's right – a giant rat.

Kessey is great.Grear writer&incredible characterThe biggest for me from beatniks generation writers.

Ken Kesey's One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest was great – a classic. And then that's it. I wish he had written more instead of fucking around with the further bus that square-ass Tom Wolfe wrote about in the Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, which is an overrated work.

But we were discussing chemists more than authors. Also, you're not ranking Jack Kerouac in this beatnik list?

Shulgin is interesting...never read Tihcal or Pihcal......just some quotes.

It's with a K for "Phenethylamines I Have Known And Loved" and "Tryptamines I Have Known And Loved." … Then you've got Method Man's TICAL… Lol

The notable thing about his writing is the included chemistry… Shulgin that is, not Wu-Tang Clan's Method Man.

He and his wife are fundament of psych.culture.Ramm Dass&Richard?Alpert.....can't remember nothing about these,except there were integral part of the same psych.cultute.

Try reading the books. Another recommendation is Operation: White Rabbit that exams the story of the Kansas Missile Silo Acid King and his arrest in December of 2000.

 

[lonelyDude]

Just a reminder: getting screwed by the DEA is not a good thing. It belies naivety and foolish overconfidence.

Hoffman had recurring dreams about LSD-25 for five years during WWII in Switzerland before finally trying it himself and immediately seeing the potential. He also elucidated for us psilocybin & psilocin in psilocybe mushrooms and successfully synthesized it in his lab. Furthermore, it indeed caused him many problems as outlined in his seminal drug-book classic, LSD: My Problem Child.

As for Nichols, he's done some amazing research for Parkinson's, not to mention the contributions to psychedelic research. He's published a ton of his research and work as have his colleagues who worked under him at Purdue. He's just a guy who believes in changing the system from the inside…


He literally stood on a podium and gave university lectures and published two massive tomes filled with chemistry how-to knowledge and insight into hundreds of psychoactive drugs. At the very least he had the decency not to be a motherfucking snitch like that douche nozzle Leary. But, it's worth noting: Shulgin did provide expert testimony to the Feds. I understand he was only telling the truth and had to do this in order to hold his license, but still…


Rightfully so. Shulgin complained, too.


Not exactly. I recall him being quite conflicted on these subjects in PiHKAL and TiHKAL. The fiasco involving DOM (STP) in the late 60s really bothered Sasha, much the same way the deaths associated with 25x-NBOMe drugs bothered Dave Nichols.


That wasn't cool. That's a really shitty view. By that same token I could write-off Shulgin as having been just another hippie drug cook…

Truth is: your so-called tourists were actually influential clandestine chemists and pivotal players in the psychedelic revolution of the 1960s and 1970s. They were bravely doing us all a service where the risk mostly outweighed the reward when analyzed on a personal level. Most of them took one for the team. Except that Benedict Arnold snake in the grass piece of shit stool pigeon, Tim Leary. Motherfuck that clown.

Meanwhile, you don't actually think Dr. Shulgin did all that independent research himself, do you? He had a lot of help from people like Darrell LeMaire. As the DEA license-holder, he knew that he was allowing himself to be made a target and tried to maintain a friendly relationship with the agency, which, ultimately, probably was a mistake. But hindsight is 20/20. But while others took giant risks with their freedoms, Shulgin sat safely behind his license for decades. Anyone willing to risk their own freedom like this deserves some modicum of respect.

Deify the late doctor if you wish, but I don't see him as a martyr. The books were retailed for profit, and they helped establish his clout. I mean, it's not like he was operating as an altruist. He was a pioneering psychedelic researcher who illuminated and explored many compounds and shared his findings with us, but he was also fortunate enough to have a very rare set of circumstances to allow this to happen. A lot of right place at the right time. It makes me wonder how many people have been in similarly rare circumstances but chose to keep it to themselves and the world never knew any better…

The concept of unique or rare circumstances for wildly successful people is explored in Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers. It's a fascinating read.

I knew shulgin was expert witness on cases it was one of the reasons the let him keep the license to do the research.

I also knew he had a partner in the operation as well.

your right the comment was a bit hard but I just get over the whole acid enlightenment thing.

I dont see him as a martyr either just a large part in the start of an entirely new age in drugs.

we put a rat in a maze on acid it still has no idea how to buy groceries at the supermarket down the road or even that the supermarket exists.

some of the writings of the psycedelic scene make it sound like that if you take acid the shop will all of sudden find the rat tell it all about it and then give it the groceries as well.

anything that is in acid is already inside the person.

It is a great break from reality though and a lot of fun.

I think there writings have lead a lot of people to chase madness instead of there own lives.

 

[unodelacosa]

I think there writings have lead a lot of people to chase madness instead of there own lives.

That's vague; what does that even mean? I think people have the right to pursue their own personal happiness. How does one "chase madness"?

Listen if the Baby Boomer generation thought they could buy "serenity, tranquility, peace" for $3/hit I would argue that's as much a symptom of a post-WWII social superconscious hopeful thinking as much as it is Leary lectures and McKenna books. And besides, ultimately we're responsible for ourselves. Yes, it's nice to look out for your neighbors and nice when they look out for you, but a person shouldn't blame any inanimate objects – such as psychoactive substances – when they fuck up their own lives. Like you said, it was already in them the whole time.

we put a rat in a maze on acid it still has no idea how to buy groceries at the supermarket down the road or even that the supermarket exists.

What are you talking about? Nobody does this. And you should read this book called Chasing The Scream: https://chasingthescream.com/

anything that is in acid is already inside the person.

…except for LSD, which has a unique action causing qualitative effects not ordinarily accessible.

 

[lonelyDude]

I am not saying blame a drug for peoples actions nor that psychedelic literature has no place on earth just that most of the time I find it

absolute rubbish.

I would love to read another book but as I said in the chess thread I have to much to read as it is.

at the moment its Design Patterns reusable object oriented software and Test Driven Design.

when I get some time off if I remember ill have a look at it.

of course LSD causes qualitative effects not ordinarily accessible.

doesnt mean that anything that happens in the trip is to be taken as having any link to reality.

what I am talking about is the idea of opening ones mind and stepping out the door so to say.

I think we are believing we are doing this and in fact its not happening much as a rat tripping is not really knowing about the supermarket down the street.

instead the rat has come up with some weird idea of whats out there due to its trip but as it was not based on any kind of analysis or measurement out side

of what the drug is making it think its experiencing its much like guessing the number of stars in the universe.

who knows it might come up with whats outside its cage but I doubt it and if it did I dont think its the acid that would have done it but rather blind luck.

the whole experience is just a trip.

the user might come up with some kind of enlightened idea or state of mind but then again they might not just like any other moment in there life.

though they might also think they have come up with an enlightened idea or state of mind just based on the fact there tripping and they really had no grip on reality at all.

what is being enlightened ?

I would say knowing ones self and there place in reality.

this is impossible if you have no grip on reality at the time.

hence my view that they are selling rubbish.

the stuff can give you great ideas and inspiration its a lot of fun and quite safe if your not overdoing it or have a mental problem.

but there selling it in there books as showing the door to enlightenment and I just dont see it.

 

[lonelyDude]

I think the whole thing is a reflection on us needing to think there is more to us and that we are connected (I am not saying we arent or that there isnt)

the ego could in fact be driving the entire process (even if someone goes through so called ego death or forgetfulness).

for all we know it could be just like a broken cathoray tube in an old TV making weird signals and colours in the brain and no more and our need to grasp at something is filling in the gaps.

maybe thats why everyones trips are different.

because there filling in the gaps.

 

[unodelacosa]

I find it absolute rubbish. […] selling it in there books as showing the door to enlightenment and I just dont see it.

Sounding more than a little cynical there, my guy. Different strokes for different folks.

for all we know it could be just like a broken cathoray tube in an old TV making weird signals and colours in the brain and no more and our need to grasp at something is filling in the gaps.

I think maybe a better metaphor than a broken cathode ray tube in an old TV is the light trails in old VHS tape movies for LSD and dissociative drugs are more of the filling in the gaps type.

I think tripping is kinda like dreaming and Tarot card readings, insofar as to say how we ultimately interpret them is up to each of us. Whether we choose to see symbols and meaning is entirely our choice. It's a way of accessing subconscious knowledge and comprehension, a very valuable tool. Or, if you're not looking for answers, sometimes tripping balls is just a nutty goddamn time.

 

[Nas47]

It's all fairly fact-checkable.


Honestly, I do too. Dennis McKenna is an academic, but Terence shot himself in the foot with some of his crackpot theories, but regardless, he was a sweet, kind, and caring man, and I very much enjoyed his books and lectures when I was younger.


He started off as a scientist and turned into Master Splinter from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And what was Master Splinter? That's right – a giant rat.


Ken Kesey's One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest was great – a classic. And then that's it. I wish he had written more instead of fucking around with the further bus that square-ass Tom Wolfe wrote about in the Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, which is an overrated work.

But we were discussing chemists more than authors. Also, you're not ranking Jack Kerouac in this beatnik list?


It's with a K for "Phenethylamines I Have Known And Loved" and "Tryptamines I Have Known And Loved." … Then you've got Method Man's TICAL… Lol

The notable thing about his writing is the included chemistry… Shulgin that is, not Wu-Tang Clan's Method Man.


Try reading the books. Another recommendation is Operation: White Rabbit that exams the story of the Kansas Missile Silo Acid King and his arrest in December of 2000.

Ken Kessey-A sailor'song-inxredible book.."Last go round"-very good book.What thats mean-fact checkable.Who's fact?What we talkin'about?Tell me 'cause i am feel not ok.Jack Keruack-I have read all of his book.Only and only "On the road"likes me.Shulgin-not interested about his articles.I read what I have read.Finished with this...just like finished to listen music.Why?Cause I am half dead and not fuckin' carw about anything anymore.Let this shit over as soon as possible 'cause the agony .....far too long.....
P.S. Dude....better....not answered me at all cause in such situations when i am now very,very hard to understand..brain don't work.Have a nice fay...my was pain

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Oh I doubt that. The timelines don't overlap so well for some of them. And then for instance the feds had a large dossier on Tim Leary. Generally speaking, and despite being a piece-of-shit snitch, the feds / law enforcement did not like Leary as he came across like a condescending prick to them.

Also, Terence McKenna's end of the world / Mayan calendar prediction for the year 2012 was obviously some horseshit… I'm just saying.

Sorry if my post painted with a broad brush.
What i mean is that they were all monitored and used in various ways.
Zach leary talks some about this and that the grateful dead was basicly cia's roadband.

How much they knew themself is up for debate.
My theory is that the powers that be tried to use psychedelics for a speciellt outcome.
However i suspect it backfired in many ways.

 

[nznity]

Do you believe they are accurate about psychedelic drugs, crackpots/basketcases/burn outs, a combination of the two, or something else?

I remember as a teen and very young adult reading their books, and while they were entertaining and fun to read in class, and well meaning, they did not really accurately describe tripping on LSD or mushrooms. Ram Dass or Alpert was actually better at describing meditation techniques than writing about LSD or mushrooms. I never believed his claim some Yogi or guru in India took 250ug of LSD and claimed that nothing happened as he was so adept at meditation and yoga.

I tried reading the narcissistic word salad of Dennis McKenna and his 2012 theory in the one book he apparently wrote, but he is burnt out and full of shit.

I think lesary was cool at first but as he progressed and his books were getting weirder and weirder. He was cuckoo as fk from too much acid. John c. Lilly is a good example of what ketamine abuse can make u think aswell.

 

[lonelyDude]

Sounding more than a little cynical there, my guy. Different strokes for different folks.


I think maybe a better metaphor than a broken cathode ray tube in an old TV is the light trails in old VHS tape movies for LSD and dissociative drugs are more of the filling in the gaps type.

I think tripping is kinda like dreaming and Tarot card readings, insofar as to say how we ultimately interpret them is up to each of us. Whether we choose to see symbols and meaning is entirely our choice. It's a way of accessing subconscious knowledge and comprehension, a very valuable tool. Or, if you're not looking for answers, sometimes tripping balls is just a nutty goddamn time.

your right of course different strokes different folks.

to be honest its not a harmful faith and I am all for people believing what ever they want just how I feel about them

 

[thegreenhand]

Leary --> a selfish hedonist who set back psychedelic science decades

McKennas --> Nutty and make unfounded claims but ultimately pretty harmless

Shulgins --> Visionaries in the field of psychoactive drugs. Pihkal and Tihkal are scientific masterpieces

Ram dass --> I dont like his associations with Leary, but probably not so bad


This is just my opinion and admittedly i havent read much of their writings, with the exception of the Shulgins

 

[VenerableHippie]

I liked Kesey's description of taking ... um ... what was it now ... ? Anyway he went for a swim and found this monster at the bottom of the dam he was swimming in. It had HUGE TEETH. Turned out to be a rusty 44 gal/200 litre drum!

But he was very right when he said to his generation that the biggest mistake they made was to have thought they had won. (Trump kinda proves Kesey correct.)

I saw Ram Das interviewed on tele a few years ago. He looked like shit. He was a sick man. He had no energy. He could only tell stories. Obviously 'enlightenment' doesn't stick. I 'll go for peace of mind, myself.