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☮ Social ☮ How do YOU feel about Leary, the McKennas and Shulgins, RamDass/Alpert, Kesey, etc.?

It has been almost 20 years since I read the book, but didn't Leary go onto the furthur bus and talk to Kesey and everyone else? He did not invite them into the Millbrook estate.

Yes Priest but that was not part of the book since it was written in the 60's. The actual meet and trip occured in the 90's on Kesey's Farm. He (Leary) totally snubbed the Pranksters in 1964 and even refused to supply them with LSD for the return trip West to La Honda.
 
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shulgin was special, kesey was a writer, the others filled a gap and enjoyed the fame. Fluff for the media.
 
Alexander Shulgin is way up there with Nichols and Hofmann, a league miles above and beyond the others.

McKenna is a perfect reason NOT to take psychedelics.

The Pranksters were the precursors to rave culture.

Leary.. I loved him as a teen interested in psychedelics and reading his stuff but.. seriously.. he was so incredibly irresponsible, using his psychological arsenal to entice kids to run away from home to become homeless drug users in San Francisco. A pied piper and self proclaimed High Priest of LSD.

McKenna is the Buddha that gets so high he never returns to 'normal' society, a cooked goose essentially. His teachings are valuable if you enjoy a certain amount of alienation from society and preferably can spend a long time alone because you don't give a fuck about most things that most people care about. He's a good guy to have around if you need to say fuck you to the world but then again, you can also get lost and become seriously alienated and detached from reality as a result. He's a dangerous teacher. And not in the sense of he himself was a dangerous person but because his message takes a certain kind of person whose essentially willing to give lots of things up in order to live that life he professes, and it's not a life that involves being integrated into society as it's often viewed as in our culture.
 
McKenna is the Buddha that gets so high he never returns to 'normal' society, a cooked goose essentially. His teachings are valuable if you enjoy a certain amount of alienation from society and preferably can spend a long time alone because you don't give a fuck about most things that most people care about. He's a good guy to have around if you need to say fuck you to the world but then again, you can also get lost and become seriously alienated and detached from reality as a result. He's a dangerous teacher. And not in the sense of he himself was a dangerous person but because his message takes a certain kind of person whose essentially willing to give lots of things up in order to live that life he professes, and it's not a life that involves being integrated into society as it's often viewed as in our culture.
mckenna also did not walk his talk. He gave up tripping because he had a scary trip and was to pussy to return again. 5 grams silent darkness. The silence is one good way to have a horrible trip i tried it out on shrooms and nope fuck that.

I really like james fadiman and his micrdosing approach and his protocols of safety.

mckenna was a schizophrenic high functioning though.

Integrating back into society is the most important part i myself and many others have gotten lost in that out of the box place. But just coming back into society over the last month i feel so much better. I did feel very isolated while going heavy on LSD and not been able to relate to anybody else since i was so sky high in other realms no one could begin to comphrend the levels of reality i was talking about.
 
I feel some have done a good job explaining certain individuals, Shulgin shouldn’t really be in this conversation cuz he was more chemist than philosopher.

I think my problem with so many psychedelic philosopher types is they act as though they’ve figured out a state of mind that really can’t be described in words. They try their best but it all comes out as meaningless fluff more often than not.

-GC
 
I feel some have done a good job explaining certain individuals, Shulgin shouldn’t really be in this conversation cuz he was more chemist than philosopher.

I think my problem with so many psychedelic philosopher types is they act as though they’ve figured out a state of mind that really can’t be described in words. They try their best but it all comes out as meaningless fluff more often than not.

-GC
Psychedelic narcissism.
It's the "I have reached altered states nobody else has therefore I know what the meaning of life and reality is" mindset.
Psychedelics do so much but at the same time they do so little to get to the bottom of all the questions. What is dangerous about them is they sometimes can infer in the individual the belief or moreover, the delusion, they've unlocked some secret knowledge or realms of consciousness that are exclusive and only 'special' people can access them. The changes they do bring on can be perceived as monumental in actuality are very tiny, at least in terms of changes in the individual at, say, the level of personality and psychological structures.

You can't blame people like Leary, Alpert, McKenna etc because they got a free ticket to talk about this stuff like it was REALLY real. They saw a niche in the market and capitalized on it and they all benefited hugely, at least during the peak of their fame and influence. Someone mentioned in a previous post about them having drank their own kool aid and it's absolutely true. They did drink their kool aid and they no doubt began to actually believe they had unlocked superior knowledge to parts of the human psyche and condition overall that nobody else had done and it was their mission from the heavens to share these prophetic visions with the world. I know Leary was more inclined to take this position but many of them must have been staring at themselves in the mirror basking in their own reflection. How could they not have done that when they were seen as heroes by their own followers and idolized in the wider psychedelic culture.

Also you have to factor in the truth that society as a whole are starved of meaning, purpose and identity. They project onto their idols (celebrities in this example) what they want to see and think the world is about and it's only natural that whoever happens to have this role projected onto them gradually begins to warm to it and from then onwards, depending on many factors including predispositions to certain personality traits, behaviours and of course conditioning and developmental factors, act accordingly with their environment. Their environment continues to give them the power to define reality and with this power obviously comes great responsibility. I mean we could go onto how this affects many areas of our society including politics but let's not go there. It's safe to say this dynamic between follower and leader, the archaic search for the God among us, the one to take us to the light and look after us, is present in our celebrity worshipping culture and it's no different with those of the original first and second wave psychedelic pioneers. This is a BREEDING GROUND for narcissism. It just happens under the guise of 'acceptable' narcissism because it's often denied, repressed and rebranded into something else because taking psychedelics removes your natural inclination to exhibit narcisisstic traits, right? There's the typical stereotyping naivety around psychedelics like because we're all good people and we mean peace and love and everything is about 'good vibes' we all of a sudden become perfect human beings and incapable of corrupting ourselves and others. In the context of psychedelic pioneers, it's hard to see how this dynamic wasn't abused to some degree, perhaps not intentionally but even so, it probably happened.

I also think maybe we are talking about denial as well. Denial of the fact that no matter what we attribute to ourselves, we will never know the answers to many age old questions. And you have to be careful that you don't begin to start attaching labels to yourself and assume that these labels automatically assume some sort of achievement. I mean, people meditate and they become meditators but I think 99% of them are full of shit. They meditate because it's trendy. They wear yoga pants because they saw a celebrity in a magazine wearing them and they want to be like that celebrity. Or they believe there is some sort of sophistication and social approval from looking like a meditator. It's the same with people holding wine glasses up when taking Facebook selfies. They believe if you do certain things it makes their social class instantly rise. All you have to do these days it seems is hold a wine glass up and be in a restaurant and now you're all of a sudden part of the elite society. Everybody wants to look rich these days. Notice how everybody wants to LOOK rich. The secret to deciphering all this is in the motive.

How many actually are though?
It's no different with psychedelics. People attach all these labels to themselves and attribute stars they earn in meditation apps, lectures they've listened to, the haircuts they get, the clothes they wear and the people they hang out with, as some sort of proof of having find 'it', whatever 'it' is. You see many people in Starbucks DELIBERATELY sitting at the front window with their Mac laptop just so they can be SEEN looking like they are living the dream. Of course they don't realize that what they are trying to emulate is because of many years of MILLIONS of dollars being pumped into marketing and PR to get people to BUY into a lifestyle choice in order to ASSUME that lifestyle choice is actually a representation of success, wealth, happiness, social status etc. Again, emphasis on BUY and ASSUME. These are doing words, not being words.

Everybody is looking for something and ultimately somebody will have a sales pitch to sell you the answer. But is it actually the answer?
Are you a consumer or a producer? Are you being herded around or are you the shepherd?

I think it's important to bare all this in mind when you're looking at the overall dynamic that is inferred with the psychedelic teachings, especially prior to the 'modern' scientific and wholly empirical revitalization of psychedelic research. It's all very cult-like in some ways and that always infers narcissism, at least at the top of the cult social hiearchy where there's always the all-seeing-all-knowing prophet and his followers below him.

I find the psychology of all this very interesting.
 
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Leary: smart, but too smart for his own good. Full of shit. Cultist. Set this whole thing back decades with his bullshit. Was involved with a lot of sketchy shit from the CIA to the Weather Underground. The Psychedelic Experience is a foundational text but really, fuck that guy. The book was more Metzner really and it shows in the places where it is sane.

Alpert: put his Leary energy into religion. where Leary was grandiose and messianic Alpert was very much the opposite, wanted to find something to submerge himself in instead of making it all about him. Found that in Hindu charlatans who were all to eager to mold his brilliant mind. Leary started a cult, alpert joined one. Naive but well intentioned. True believer. Be Here Now is iconic and the book my hippie mom bought for me when she found out I was doing acid.

Kesey: an absolute mad lad.. also iconic, but very much a product of his time. Foundational to the counterculture though, set a pattern that continues down to this day with regards to how the drugs are used, distributed, and viewed within a cultural context. With Leary, although they were not connected, very much the opposite, pretty much created a lot of the cultural baggage that surrounds psychedelics. As we can't take them void of context, this informs our tripping down to this day.

Terrance McKenna: lunatic, but also smart. Less culty energy than Leary but presented his own shit too. Theories aren't worth a dime but are fun to talk about when you're high. Was way ahead of his time with his cyberdelic-techno-utopian shit (anticipating shit like early Wired magazine and John Perry Barlow) but look where all that optimism about technology got us. The Internet is a nightmare and drugs are a nightmare, turns out Terrance was wrong about both. He was full of shit but came by it honestly, drank his own Kool Aid so to speak, had an unusual, bright and inquisitive mind that went down some bizarre paths.

Dennis McKenna: more staid than Terrance. Still believes some weird shit. More grounded than his brother though, has some good "hard" type research. His work on cultivating P. cubensis was seminal for the hobby and the industry. Smart, very nice guy. Approachable. Will talk with you about stuff at length if you pique his interest with something.

Shulgin: obvious favorite for Bluelight. Rare non-lunatic but prone to flights of fancy. I could do without the more whimsical aspects of his books but they are obviously foundational and one of a kind. Absolutely brilliant, a unique mind. Without him none of the modern scene would exist. Legitimately changed the world, without a doubt the most influential figure in the drug culture since Leary. Weird connections (Bohemian Grove, military-industrial complex) for the conspiracy minded. Was a very nice guy, also approachable. Humble and had a sense of humor. Towards the end was not all there cognitively sad to say but even with all that was a brilliant guy to hear give a talk or to speak with. Was doing his thing till death did him part. RIP.

I think this is an excellent post. I was going to reply it but I honestly couldn't think of the right words.
There's things people say sometimes that don't require a response, not because they are not worthy but because they say all there is to be said.

Shulgin had connections? I knew he was DEA licensed and had quite a long stint researching for Dow. It doesn't surprise me if this included research that veered off into murky territory. He seemed to keep a cool head though throughout, at least based on my perceptions of him. He seemed like the sort of guy that even if he was involved with murky territory would be transparent enough for you to know he was also grounded enough to not let it alienate him from everything else. He could be real basically. Sometimes those decisions to tread those paths result in you never coming back and losing touch with what really matters - a sense of connection to everything else that makes up society.

There was a lot of controversial stuff going on though, especially during the 50s and up until the closure of the majority of research on psychedelics. I think if most people knew how dicy the scenes really were and how compromised they were and their involvements in shady things shaped their trajectories, people would see the psychedelic sixties in a whole new light.
 
And this thread confirms why I get on so well with PD folks on Bluelight! :giggle:

I didn't think ram ever admitted being conned - must just be tripsitter pulling facts out of arse again!

He did admit something to that effect in a late life interview, about as candidly as he could. He explained that he learned that his guru (like so many others) were expert at palming small objects and other parlor tricks. After the first, much-recounted story about taking LSD and experiencing nothing, Ram Das relates that Neem Karoli Baba basically admitted to having not taken the LSD. The second time, RD believes that NKB did take 1200ug (and did trip,) although he apparently was just as placid and unperturbed throughout as Richard Evan Schultes famously was. I can't find the podcast that I heard the interview from, but the link below basically covers the same material.

 
Leary is the one that bothers me most. Leary by name, leery by nature. I'm sure the benefits of being a Harvard professor plying his young and impressionable students with mind altering drugs wasn't lost on him.
 
It's wild that he got an 30 year sentence in the 1960's for marijuana possession...before appealing it up to the Supreme Court and winning.

I was recently re-reading the Wiki entry on him due to this thread, and that part stood out
 
They were using the Marijuana because LSD was legal until 1968, it was all they could get him on. They arrested Kesey for the very same thing and he did Federal time (after being arrested by the FBI as a fugitive). Kinda like getting Al Capone for taxes ;)
 
They were using the Marijuana because LSD was legal until 1968, it was all they could get him on. They arrested Kesey for the very same thing and he did Federal time (after being arrested by the FBI as a fugitive). Kinda like getting Al Capone for taxes ;)

Yeah, I remember in the Kool Aid book, Tom Wolfe thought it was amusing that the federales had Kesey under survelliance not because of all the speed and acid they were doing, but rather for the 60's grass they were puffing on lol
 
The psychedelic sixties was fucked. And not in the loaded out of your mind way, although that was also true as well for lots of people. It was fucked because it stank of a government operation from the very beginning. If you do any research on the psychedelic sixties which spawned all the second wave of pioneers, you'll see there are ties to the intelligence apparatus at the time everywhere. Psychedelics started in the hands of the military and it never really left the military, it just filtered out into mainstream society and was rebranded for mass consumption like lots of things are. The key players involved never really have been revealed but there's evidence here and there to point to pretty much every notable figure of the time who was in the spotlight as being involved, or on the books, as being involved in the various intelligence operations.


The whole thing around Leary was setup. Most of it is bullshit. It plays into his role as the master co-ordinator, of which he was when you think about it.
Leary sort of came out. You can read interviews he did not long before he died, the good interviews he did that is and not the bullshit flowery watery ones he did, and he pretty much admits he was co-opted early by the CIA. In one interview he said he knew the CIA was involved from the start and that he was asked to do things for them but upon actually openly coming out and saying he worked for the CIA he never did. It probably won't come out for a long time due to how long it takes for these things to even have the chance of being declassified.

A really good book to read is called Acid Dreams.
I think the bullshit behind the sixties needs to come out sooner rather than later so that that whole period of time can really settle. Most peoples ticket into the world of psychedelics revolves around getting a degree in sixties culture and the teachings of the time and many perspectives today that were built on those foundations. Sure, from a rose tinted view everything was flowers, love and peace. Behind the scenes though, much of the movement was essentially under the influence of the government/intelligence. That's not a good place to start, especially when most people think they are learning things that help to bolster a sense of self and a direction that appears to be going in the opposite direction of this.
 
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They were using the Marijuana because LSD was legal until 1968, it was all they could get him on. They arrested Kesey for the very same thing and he did Federal time (after being arrested by the FBI as a fugitive). Kinda like getting Al Capone for taxes ;)
I could swear it became widely outlawed, exiled from the nearby pharmacists shelf in 1966?

Not that it ceased to be available, not the least. Without illegalisation, the famous 60’s microdots might not be quite the legend.
 
most LSD was acutally made by and distributed around the world by the MI5 agent ron stark. so mi5 made like 20 kg of lsd and was a plot by ron stark to destory the capitalist's world and implant left wing communism. But it did not work out lol.
 
I thought that "Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the 1960s" by Tom O'Neill was decent too, as far as books about the nexus of psychedelic drug use and government intelligence operations during the 1960s (although the book is more about the Manson case specifically). I also have "Poisoner In Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control" by Stephen Kinzer, but I haven't read that one yet :unsure:
 
I thought that "Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the 1960s" by Tom O'Neill was decent too, as far as books about the nexus of psychedelic drug use and government intelligence operations during the 1960s (although the book is more about the Manson case specifically). I also have "Poisoner In Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control" by Stephen Kinzer, but I haven't read that one yet :unsure:
I'm reading Chaos at the moment and I'm enjoying it and I was going to say it's main story is on Manson but it does crack open the mind fuck (well intentioned, as it seems) that is the CIA's involvement throughout the sixties and beyond. Sidney Gottlieb was the mastermind behind the original experiments, right?
 
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