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How do bladder problems from ketamine use start?

smash016 said:
Rest assured, I drink no alcohol, don't smoke except on parties. My diet is top-notch, I'm all about working out and eating unprocessed foods, supplementing daily with multivitamin and fish oil, intermittent fasting and shit. I drink turmeric / ginger tea and use these spices all the time when cooking. I like to think this Monday-Friday lifestyle makes up for my weekend antics... :)
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It doesn't excercise and vitamins won't prevent ketamine cystitis

And I will try to dig out the scientific papers showing cystitis resulting from casual users...I've seen them before. You have to search Google scholar using terms like interstitial cystitis and ketamine and look at the data inside, it doesn't spell it out in big bold letters.

There is also another thread in this forum with ppl detailing minor use getting problems.

Cycstitis happens to people that have never even touched ketamine...so if you're almost one of those people gentetically , it will take very little ketamine to push things over the edge
 
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I used those search terms, didn't find such study. Don't get me wrong, I suspect I have damaged my bladder using ketamine, and suspicion alone is enough to take no further risks.

Mind you though, I experience no pain or other odd sensations in my abdomen, which seems like the primary symptom of cystitis... I basically just have to piss all day. While drinking a lot all day. And I know for a fact the urge to urinate can be very much psychologically mediated or conditioned. Just saying. Nothing here is clear-cut.
 
My syntoms have varied and existed alone or in combination. They are

1. Urge to piss no matter what and hard to piss
2. Pain in the side areas ..the V that ppl in good shape have so to speak
3. Pain in the central bladder area.
4. Pain in the tip of penis.
5. Feels like your balls are made of lead

...for the last month it's been only the constant having to piss feeling even though doc says my bladder is empty.

I hate this feeling more than any of the other pains
 
I have to take many small leaks throughout the day, not like I absolutely have to, but it bothers me if I don't. It just irritates me when I feel something of an urge. I guess that's indicative of reduced bladder capacity / elasticity. It's easy to piss though, except for the last bit. I need to consciously make an effort to fully empty my bladder, although this has improved recently.

Funny you mention the "V" area (I actually have one :) ), because that's exactly where I was experiencing those pain stings a while ago, to the left of my bladder. Attributed them to exercising, but I highly doubt that now. Luckily it's been over a week since I last felt them.

Because of my diet, which includes very high fluid intake, water and tea mostly, and which I started about a year ago when I also started to take ketamine, I never worried about having to take many pisses, up until now.

Thanks Lucid, for sharing and warning me. Really appreciate it.
 
smash016 said:
I used those search terms, didn't find such study. Don't get me wrong, I suspect I have damaged my bladder using ketamine, and suspicion alone is enough to take no further risks.

Mind you though, I experience no pain or other odd sensations in my abdomen, which seems like the primary symptom of cystitis... I basically just have to piss all day. While drinking a lot all day. And I know for a fact the urge to urinate can be very much psychologically mediated or conditioned. Just saying. Nothing here is clear-cut.
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Here is a link to the study i had recalled seeing:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1442-2042.2009.02361.x


Take a look at TABLE 1. There are people developing cystitis in as little as 3 months of use, many under a year of use. Granted, they were using approx. 1 gram a day.


the point is that you are feeling pain that i would bet my pain pills on is ketamine induced.

Another thing I'll mention, is that once this damage started, i thought i would be ok to do other drugs not known to cause cystitis. But once you already have it, any stimulating drug will fuck your world up. Lyrica actually makes it worse too. I would be very careful with your frequency of any kind of drug use from now on.

I recall Xorkoth saying his girlfriend has cystitis (don't think its from ket though) and that psychedelics cause her pain.
 
What is the probability that in some cases it is just a coincidence?
I work in a Hospital, here comes many people who have never consumed Ketamine and they are diagnosed with chronic infections.
I think that some people may be prone to suffer from this ailment, and the fact that they have taken K from time to time does not mean that this has been the main trigger.

We are not talking about heavy addicts.


DocLad
 
@Lucid
I saw that study but it's not very relevant to my situation, these dosages are all way higher than mine, which is exactly my point. I use //at most// 12.5 mg per day (150 mg per night * 2.5 nights per months / 30 days per month), with most days being 0.0 mg, mind you (recovery time and such, as opposed to daily use in this study). Again, this is all upper limits, during festival season, most months I use //much// less even.

I know, err on the side of caution, which is a good mentality, but let's not overstate things. And I will NOT cease all substance use. :) Regardless. Actually, looking at this study makes me think I'm not at all affected by ketamine damage. I'm just reading into it, drinking too much water and hurting my abs exercising. :) Seriously, realizing how low my doses are that seems more likely. However, I will stop taking ketamine to see how my symptoms will develop, that's just paramount at this stage. Wouldn't feel comfortable taking ket fearing I'm fucking myself up anyway.

But seriously, wouldn't you agree my dosing and frequency of use is not even near the same league as what studies on ket damage suggest?
 
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Your use is low but

As the abouve poster stated...interstitial cystitis happens in ppl that have never done ketamine....you could be one of them. More ketamine definitely could send you over the edge.

Doclad IC is not an infection ppl usually test negative for all types no infection and then the urologist has to consider other diagnosis like prostate problems or IC
 
I wonder if other dissociative anesthetics might have similar effects on bladder? Wondering if it has to do with NMDA antagonism or just with K structure in general...:?

I also think that the thread with this issue should be made sticky here on BL - too many people are using it regularly and some may be unaware of the potential damage!
 
Volsam said:
I wonder if other dissociative anesthetics might have similar effects on bladder? Wondering if it has to do with NMDA antagonism or just with K structure in general...:?

I also think that the thread with this issue should be made sticky here on BL - too many people are using it regularly and some may be unaware of the potential damage!
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i agree about the sticky...there are like three other threads below this one basically discussing the exact same thing.

in one of the other thread Cotcha Yankinov, who seems to be our resident Dr/physiology expert was saying its due to the NMDA antagonism mechanism itself, not the chemical itself ablating the bladder.

about 75 percent of my overall use was mxe, maybe like 15 3meo and 10 percent ketamine. And the funny thing was I actually wouldn't have too much bladder pain after the ket or mxe even after my bladder was fucked up, i used ket several times later in my disso career after this had begun to manifest and it wouldn't irritate it much. it was the 3meo that seemed to be the worst on it. DCK was also harsh. the mxe was all early on, so maybe i just hadn't done too much damage at that point to feel anything
 
I appreciate the input, LucidSDreamr! Sucks that it affects all NMDA-antagonists...:(
I wonder if even lower efficiency NMDA binding chems like Memantine or even Agmatine might also cause similar reaction over time?


To help dealing with this I recommend to try Dandelion, Saw palmetto and Green tea extracts - they might help. Or at least a few of my medical encyclopedias say so.
 
Volsam said:
I appreciate the input, LucidSDreamr!
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Same here. I appreciate LucidsDreamr and all the other people talking about it. There has been a thread a month on this topic. No pun intended but it takes balls to share stuff like this and that is where the healing starts. It is an interesting topic in only that people ask me about certain drugs, and this situation I know nothing about. I knew a few ketamine users many years ago but the bladder issues were not known, or at least not being talked about.

Way better to be too cautious than not. Some strong warnings are proper to me. Also there is really good info here about this by some knowledgeable BL'ers going back even 8 years ago. So research on BL can help make informed decisions.

My own personal belief is no matter what a doctor says, the body can heal even in places there is said to be permanent damage. We have all seen those types if scenarios. Dandelion is great for the kidneys. Gravel root for bladder. I would even add milk thistle. The body is either getting healthier or sicker at any given moment. (thanks Bob Dylan, He who isn't busy being born is busy dying. I include the physical areas of life in that statement)
 
If there is one positive side to this it's that it finally madee quit drinking for good. Haven't had a drink in 4 months and I was engaging in very reckless dangerous behavior while drunk. It was a miracle I hadn't been arrested or had my ass kicked by this point. I was also treating my family and friends like shit...not a happy drunk.
 
Another thing of note is that I almost invariably combine ketamine with stimulants. Basically, I go to a rave, take stimulants (mostly amphetamine derivatives) at fairly low doses, then close to the end, when the stimulants are long past their peak, I supplement and sustain the high with a few bumps of K.

Since stimulants suppress the need to urinate, this could be detrimental to ketamine's bladder effects. From a medical layperson's POV at least, drinking and pissing a lot while on K would "flush" your bladder of K's damaging metabolites, while suppressing your bladder function seems like a rather bad idea.

Right?
 
I think you're onto something. Also, I don't know if it's true for you or not, but stimulants cause urinary issues for me themselves.
 
Ive been using Arylcyclohexylamines for more than 10 years off and on-almost daily for 6 or so-All different compounds-and not mainly Ketamine-it is my least favorite of the 7 or 8 ve been the most interested in during my life. I feel like i need to get testing done for some of these conditions mentioned in the thread. Where would be the best place or style of Doctor to start with? I have access to quality free healthcare for the moment so i need to use it just in case. Would the ER be useful if i were honest? Or a Specialist? Thoughts? Id be mad grateful but not grateful dead. Fuckin hippies. Listen to Peace Punk.
 
I told my doctor about my problems, full disclosure, she told me to first stop taking ketamine for a while and come back if symptoms do not disappear. I can't argue with that. Unless you're in serious pain they will not refer you to a specialist. We'd all like a full medical checkup, especially us psychonauts, but healthcare doesn't work like that, I guess rightly so.

Bladder problems at my age are rare, without first taking ketamine out of the equation, there's no use examining me for mild symptoms, you know.
 
Do you really think they would just opt out of helping? If you don't know-and in a way are doing what youre doing for the benefit of everyone and science...why wouldn't they be smart enough to use you as a resource? That would be a loss. A friend told me I reminded him of a Terrence McKenna of Ketamine PCP basically Arylcyclohexylamines. They kind of gave me visuals that showed 3 differently colored hat high priests of them. When I explained that to friends out loud-talking about it made me realize the compound was talking to my consciousness. It happened off a 50mg bump of 3-MeO-PCE. As soon as I did almost within 15min. It normally takes 1-2 hours for me to come up fully on it. All of these compounds seem to create a new cocaethelyn? Type metabolite when mixed. The effects become distinctly different and can be repotentiated after the trip is over. Into the next day or days...happened multiple times to me now. Beware mixing too much of 2. I'm more careful now. Bensos and Thienos are better.
This is speculation-but I use my brain like an instrument with a wah wah pedal plus compounds. I'm pretty familiar with how different brain stimulation feels. I've done Damn near all of it but some lysergamides-mescaline-amanitas-ibogaine-why?-some tryptamines and phenylamines-phenylamines-salvia-original PCP in wet form. Thats about it. Taken massive benzo analogues in variety-lots of dmt varieties. Marijuana. How is that not at all useful in this day and age? Ive been documenting the whole experience in writing-hand written since 2013/14. For real. I want to share it all-but with who? I need a job,but what. I could be a chemist if i went to college-not would I just get myself in trouble? Is there a place in future society for me sober or not? Im confused.
Is this help or a bad 4chan proxy holder joke. I'm legit a nice cat. Why would someone do That? Or is that paranoid schizophrenia? I guess i have to decide. I've seen and felt some shit tho...real or otherwise.
 
Mr. Meowfish said:
Ive been using Arylcyclohexylamines for more than 10 years off and on-almost daily for 6 or so-All different compounds-and not mainly Ketamine-it is my least favorite of the 7 or 8 ve been the most interested in during my life. I feel like i need to get testing done for some of these conditions mentioned in the thread. Where would be the best place or style of Doctor to start with? I have access to quality free healthcare for the moment so i need to use it just in case. Would the ER be useful if i were honest? Or a Specialist? Thoughts? Id be mad grateful but not grateful dead. Fuckin hippies. Listen to Peace Punk.
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Urologist...any other doctor will be clueless.

Even then interstitial cystitis is a diagnosis of elimination.

There are other conditions that give the same symptoms. So basically chronic pain and abscence of any pathology viewed in labs (such as infection) or CT scan, combined with a history of dissociative abuse = ketamine cystitis.

I will say that I have been pain free for a week finally after months of pain. I switched to a better urologist and he diagnosed me and put me on amitriptyline (usual med for this)...after 4 weeks on this drug and ramping the dose up it finally takes effect...and I believe it worked.
 
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