Opioids How addictive is kratom?

[4meSM]

If I became addicted to tramadol, how likely is it that I will become addicted to kratom? (Tramadol is supposedly the safest opioid on the market and with the lowest rate of abuse and dependence)
I don't consider myself to have an addictive personality. I quit nicotine cold turkey 5 years ago pretty easily btw.

Are you still on tramadol? If that's the case I'd say pretty likely because you would probably be replacing tramadol with kratom, one opioid for another. Unless you still prefer tramadol after trying kratom (or if tramadol is way more easily accessible for you)
You would have to weight in the risks/rewards for being on tramadol vs kratom.
I think it would be different situation if you tried kratom without already being addicted to an opioid.

I've been taking kratom for 4 years, I'm addicted to it but I don't suffer from the negative consequences I've seen mentioned here (besides WD), my dose has remained pretty stable for a few years. In fact I think my life is better now than before and it definitely helped me get out of a depressive episode.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

If I became addicted to tramadol, how likely is it that I will become addicted to kratom? (Tramadol is supposedly the safest opioid on the market and with the lowest rate of abuse and dependence)
I don't consider myself to have an addictive personality. I quit nicotine cold turkey 5 years ago pretty easily btw.

I think people often make the HUGE mistake of believing that one opiate is less addictive than another. Time warp to the end of their addictions and most of them have jumped the ladder to the strongest ones all the way to methadone. I may be exaggerating the subject but is tramadol reallyyy that different than any opiate out there besides the potency? It's all the same deal. You'll end up hooked on something you wish you never started.

If you use kratom occasionally I would say you never would. The problem is for most of us who like the benefits of this class of substance is that the boredom kills you and eventually you might say "ef it" and start taking it every morning. At least with kratom you'll never be incarcerated. I remember when 10 milligrams of so-and-so was breathtakingly powerful. There's no telling how much worse things will get down the line. You think you have control with opiates until you wake up one morning and 10 milligrams suddenly feels like .00005 milligrams lol. There are worse things to be addicted to. But opiates are personally the most hedonistic and invasive drug and they want to seem to replace everything good within your life. Cocaine doesn't have that vendetta against its users.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

I'm to the point with it that I have to have it first thing everyday or I'm a mess. My nose runs, my eyes water, my bowels release everything I eat. There is a mental aspect to it that isn't like regular opioids. I've said I'm going to taper down and get off it for a year now but I just keep taking it. It does kill all my pain and help me work but it has thinned out my hair and makes me sweat horribly.

If you have existing pain problems I consider it better than opioids for daily use. There is a limit to how high you can get on it and I've never had problems with it causing me to have shallow breathing like opioids. On the other hand you have to take it throughout the day for it to remain effective. It does take a toll on the body in several ways. I feel trapped on it like I've felt trapped by other opioids like oxy, methadone, and all the others.

I'm terrified that it'll be made illegal because I'll be forced back on to stronger/more expensive opioids. If oxycodone was still cheap or I could find a doctor to prescribe a regular opioid to me I'd make the switch in a heart beat. I don't like being on kratom because sometimes I'll get a bad/weak batch and I don't like consuming so much plant material coming in from overseas. I've often wondered how much lead and other stuff I'm consuming when I take this stuff.

It does have a very real withdrawal nearly on par with opioids. Don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise. I don't know if mine is worse than others from years of prior opioid use. On the other hand if you can keep your use to a once in awhile thing I don't consider it very harmful. I also think it's easier to get through the w/d than on other opioids. If I could catch a week where I wasn't required to get up and work I would quit it cold turkey. I just haven't been able to find a week where I can play sick yet. With the corona virus going around I'm terrified to stop right now because Kratom boosts my immune system. If I go cold turkey I know I'm going to eaisly pick up any virus I might come into contact with.

 

[jock briton]

I'm to the point with it that I have to have it first thing everyday or I'm a mess. My nose runs, my eyes water, my bowels release everything I eat. There is a mental aspect to it that isn't like regular opioids. I've said I'm going to taper down and get off it for a year now but I just keep taking it. It does kill all my pain and help me work but it has thinned out my hair and makes me sweat horribly.

If you have existing pain problems I consider it better than opioids for daily use. There is a limit to how high you can get on it and I've never had problems with it causing me to have shallow breathing like opioids. On the other hand you have to take it throughout the day for it to remain effective. It does take a toll on the body in several ways. I feel trapped on it like I've felt trapped by other opioids like oxy, methadone, and all the others.

I'm terrified that it'll be made illegal because I'll be forced back on to stronger/more expensive opioids. If oxycodone was still cheap or I could find a doctor to prescribe a regular opioid to me I'd make the switch in a heart beat. I don't like being on kratom because sometimes I'll get a bad/weak batch and I don't like consuming so much plant material coming in from overseas. I've often wondered how much lead and other stuff I'm consuming when I take this stuff.

It does have a very real withdrawal nearly on par with opioids. Don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise. I don't know if mine is worse than others from years of prior opioid use. On the other hand if you can keep your use to a once in awhile thing I don't consider it very harmful. I also think it's easier to get through the w/d than on other opioids. If I could catch a week where I wasn't required to get up and work I would quit it cold turkey. I just haven't been able to find a week where I can play sick yet. With the corona virus going around I'm terrified to stop right now because Kratom boosts my immune system. If I go cold turkey I know I'm going to eaisly pick up any virus I might come into contact with.

hi mate hope you are ok, well iv just took my first dose today 6grams of meng da i taperd down from 12mg subutex to 0.4 and tried to jump off and to be honest i feel cheated as the rattle from 0.4 felt the same as it did at higher doses my plan is to use the kratom for 2 to 3 weeks to get the subutex out my system then rapid taper then i read your post just now and hope im not just swapping one for the other but iv heard kratom is a fast acting opiate agonist and the withdrawals arent as long or as intense,do you think if i take it for 3 weeks il be ok

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

You'll probably be fine if you can stick to your plan. I went cold turkey off methadone, tried subs for about a month and cold turkeyed those too. I tried kratom some months later after I was out of the woods for my pain problems. I did manage to nod on it once in my very early use. I just kept taking it because the old habits came back. When I've gone without it for a few days the withdrawal eased out much quicker than methadone/subs which is expected because it's so short acting.

Right now I wake up to 2-3 grams of kratom every morning. I take similar doses throughout the day about every 4-5 hours. I typically take 3-4 doses a day. I can get by on about 1-2 grams as it's enough to stave off withdrawal for a few hours. Kratom doesn't constipate me like other opioids in fact my poops are what a doctor would consider very healthy. I typically hold off on taking any in the morning until I go. When I do take it before I go I'll usually be able to go in the next few hours. I never go longer than two days without being able to poop.

If you're serious about this plan I advise that you get a scale and weigh every dose you take. Where I got into trouble with Kratom was just eye balling doses. This time last year I was taking upwards to 10 grams at a time. Now I'm back down to 2-3 grams a dose and it's just as effective. Less is more with this stuff.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

Oh and you should know kratom will dehydrate you badly. You should be drinking a lot of water while you're taking this stuff. Last year when I was taking heavy doses and vaping I was constantly dehydrated. Since I've given up vaping and started drinking more water I've had less problems with my daily kratom use.

I plan on working my way off of it soon if possible. I'm kinda stuck on opioids because I've torn out a shoulder and knees in the past. If I don't have something to kill pain I feel like I'm being stabbed in the areas of my old injuries. Part of this is my pain threshold is lower now because of years of opioid use but I've been clean from opioids long enough to know this is going to be a problem for me for the rest of my life. I've tried non-opioids to control it and they don't really help plus they have bad side effects. Drugs like Naproxen sodium give me stomach ulcers and Tylenol isn't effective at all. Kratom/opioids are the difference between being able to work and being laid up in a bed all day for me. If I wasn't so mentally addicted to them I wouldn't consider them a problem in my life at all.

The upside to kratom is I can't chase nods on it. Chasing nods was my main issue with oxycodone and other opioids and is why I couldn't stick to dosing them like I was supposed to. If they came out with a time released kratom extract I would switch over to that. I've tried some extracts before and they seem like a waste of money because they're so expensive compared to plain leaf.

 

[jock briton]

Oh and you should know kratom will dehydrate you badly. You should be drinking a lot of water while you're taking this stuff. Last year when I was taking heavy doses and vaping I was constantly dehydrated. Since I've given up vaping and started drinking more water I've had less problems with my daily kratom use.

I plan on working my way off of it soon if possible. I'm kinda stuck on opioids because I've torn out a shoulder and knees in the past. If I don't have something to kill pain I feel like I'm being stabbed in the areas of my old injuries. Part of this is my pain threshold is lower now because of years of opioid use but I've been clean from opioids long enough to know this is going to be a problem for me for the rest of my life. I've tried non-opioids to control it and they don't really help plus they have bad side effects. Drugs like Naproxen sodium give me stomach ulcers and Tylenol isn't effective at all. Kratom/opioids are the difference between being able to work and being laid up in a bed all day for me. If I wasn't so mentally addicted to them I wouldn't consider them a problem in my life at all.

The upside to kratom is I can't chase nods on it. Chasing nods was my main issue with oxycodone and other opioids and is why I couldn't stick to dosing them like I was supposed to. If they came out with a time released kratom extract I would switch over to that. I've tried some extracts before and they seem like a waste of money because they're so expensive compared to plain leaf.

thanks for the reply well iv been stuck on subutex for 8 years and going through the taper wasnt plesant and being down from 12mg to 0.4 i thought the withdrawal would far lighter and it wasnt and im just sick of being trapped in this slavery so im really hoping the kratom short term to get the sub out my system will help as i cant go weeks of pain with work and family,and i did read that most of the pain from kratom is about 5 days not weeks like subs so i thought that has got to be better than sub wd,what i would like to ask if i dose say 6 gram in the morning the 4 gram in afternoon and 4 gram at night time for first week then rapid down second week will that be enough to stave off the worst of the kratom withdrawal

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

For people who have successfully gotten off kratom--should I just cold turkey it? I'm on 10-15 grams daily. My use isn't that high but I've been on it for 2 years now regularly.

Did people experience PAWs after the first 5 days? Like depression for months? I can't see my kratom use leading anywhere at this point besides more dependency and grief. It can be kind of boring to live life without any substances but there's always marijuana I suppose.

 

[bongdong]

I don't want to sound morbid, but i have to admit i find i pretty interesting to read about all the unique use patterns, approaches and opinions regarding kratom. Thanx! I'll leave it at that respectively share some as well.

Besides the obvious, i don't really have a strong opinion about it any more, due to vastly different experiences people seem to have.

My longest streak was over one and a half years and i only (without exception) took it at night, one initial 'bigger' dose and sometimes a small reload when the first one didn't deliver. I noticed only a slight increase in my doses. Variations in effectiveness where there but i attribute that largely to different bioavailability, depending on hydration, food intake, exercise, etc. I started out with 8-10g but never exceeded 15g/day; why would i when the effect was still there? Without tolerance and perfect bioavailability 8g can send me off to a really nice turn, where just sitting and breathing is the absolute shit, heavy euphoria and nodding for long stretches. When it goes in well, 10g can potentially be 'too much' for me but of course that's not always the case.

On occasion i took a day off and after 24-30 hours i felt like crap; achy, flu symptoms, non-existent temperature regulation of my body, tremors and depressed as hell (no light at the end of the tunnel). But this was a time where my life was shatterd to the point where i had heavy psychosomatic symptoms to begin with. So i thought, "ok, still feeling like shit, i might as well take some kratom again..". It took me a while to realize that this was withdrawal (although i knew from the get-go that kratom has addictive potential), naive i know.

After that time i had a period where i would try to get off, but usually only made it to day three; that's where the shit really gets loose mentally. But i had no real meaning, motivation and goal in my life at that time which is certainly a major factor too. The physical side was really no joke either, at night it was not just RLS ..i named it RBS (restless body syndrome) where i couldn't keep still for 10 seconds, it would just build up and become unbearable so i had to move and turning over for 3-4 hours per night is not only grueling but also an exercise. A real delight for the aching limbs. I also was sweating to the point where i had to change sheets during the night cause everything was soaked. But after a week it got noticable better and after two weeks it was almost normal again. I kept a log, but i don't have that at hand right now.

During my continuous use my digestion got really inactive, i hate that and i don't think thats healthy too. I felt very cosy and warm, but my sleep was dreamless and my mouth got very very dry during the night! I think that took a toll on my teeth. No fun! It also suppressed my appetite to the point where i just didn't bother to eat and i got really emaciated and lightheaded over time. To get my appetite and digestion up and running again probably took the longest besides the mental aspect of not having a regular escape from reality any more.

Hope somebody finds this useful. Greetings

Edit: After that i continued to use for shorter periods at a time, 2 - 3 weeks with only mild symptoms afterwards. I never really bothered to taper or anything, but i'm not saying that that's not advisable for some folks and use patterns! I also made a break for over a year. I now use it on occasion but not longer than a couple of days max (only in the afternoon) without real effort/intention..

 

[supersonic89]

Are you still on tramadol? If that's the case I'd say pretty likely because you would probably be replacing tramadol with kratom, one opioid for another. Unless you still prefer tramadol after trying kratom (or if tramadol is way more easily accessible for you)
You would have to weight in the risks/rewards for being on tramadol vs kratom.
I think it would be different situation if you tried kratom without already being addicted to an opioid.

I've been taking kratom for 4 years, I'm addicted to it but I don't suffer from the negative consequences I've seen mentioned here (besides WD), my dose has remained pretty stable for a few years. In fact I think my life is better now than before and it definitely helped me get out of a depressive episode.

In fact, both are quite easy to get. Although tramadol is much cheaper than kratom. That's what stops me a bit from trying kratom, currently I can't afford an expensive vice.
A questions to kratom users, does it work as an antidepressant as well as tramadol? If you could compare it to another opioid, which one feels similar to kratom?

 

[FuckinAcidMan]

For people who have successfully gotten off kratom--should I just cold turkey it? I'm on 10-15 grams daily. My use isn't that high but I've been on it for 2 years now regularly.

Did people experience PAWs after the first 5 days? Like depression for months? I can't see my kratom use leading anywhere at this point besides more dependency and grief. It can be kind of boring to live life without any substances but there's always marijuana I suppose.

I'm almost a year off of it and am only starting to feel the PAWS type symptoms let up this last month or so. It's pretty bad. And my highest doses were only like ~7 gpd of strong red vein plain leaf. Though I did use every day pretty much for like 3 years.

Would recommend a quick taper but honestly whatever gets you off quickest is probably best.

I will note kratom made it much harder for me to get high on traditional psychedelics for a while.
Whether this is from cross tolerance similar to what you can get from regular amp use, or simply from mental and spiritual blunting from years of using kratom as a "buffer" for emotions, I do not know.
But anything that puts me out of touch with psychedelics can get fucked to be honest.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

In fact, both are quite easy to get. Although tramadol is much cheaper than kratom. That's what stops me a bit from trying kratom, currently I can't afford an expensive vice.
A questions to kratom users, does it work as an antidepressant as well as tramadol? If you could compare it to another opioid, which one feels similar to kratom?

It is a wonderful anti-depressant and slight anxiety killer which makes it reliable to abuse.. but the longer I stay on it the more depressed I find myself ironically. I would compare it to oxycodone/percocet just without the additional pleasurable highways. It feels like oxycodone without the "I want to do this all day" aspect. Quite frankly it's just not as good as the real deal pharma pack. But if your only available opiate is kratom then it becomes a true vice if they're your cup of tea anyway. As far as drugs go kratom is in the lower tier of the pleasurable ones but it is indeed legal and accessible making the addiction become in a sense incredibly hard to kick.

I can't imagine how impossible it would be to quit opioids if they were legally sold at rite-aid or shoprite for everyone LOL

I'm almost a year off of it and am only starting to feel the PAWS type symptoms let up this last month or so. It's pretty bad. And my highest doses were only like ~7 gpd of strong red vein plain leaf. Though I did use every day pretty much for like 3 years.

Would recommend a quick taper but honestly whatever gets you off quickest is probably best.

I will note kratom made it much harder for me to get high on traditional psychedelics for a while.
Whether this is from cross tolerance similar to what you can get from regular amp use, or simply from mental and spiritual blunting from years of using kratom as a "buffer" for emotions, I do not know.
But anything that puts me out of touch with psychedelics can get fucked to be honest.

Oh good... I already have major issues with feeling emotionally blunted and gloomy. Can't wait for that year of withdrawing!

 

[bongdong]

I will note kratom made it much harder for me to get high on traditional psychedelics for a while.

I noticed that too (which is not a surprise i think). Only once i intentionally mixed kratom with a psychedelic, that was before my 'mis-use' period, but that's a story for another time and place..

 

[JackARoe]

I've been taking kratom for 4 years, I'm addicted to it but I don't suffer from the negative consequences I've seen mentioned here (besides WD), my dose has remained pretty stable for a few years. In fact I think my life is better now than before and it definitely helped me get out of a depressive episode.

On an off for 15 years. But I echo your sentiments. The affects are all over the board when it comes to individual response. I have a friend where he thought it was the worst wd he ever had. Then another friend came off 50 gr a day after a year and barely had anything more than lethargy and skin issues. I know people who used heavier opiates where kratom did squat for them as it was too weak (so they say). I mean we see posts here on that too. For me there is a ceiling effect and it only goes so far. So I do scratch my head over some rougher responses but they are documented and it shows how different we all are as far as chemical responses. I can say though for me my life is better like you state. Now saying that I came from H, methadone, poppy tea and all heavier things so maybe my body took beatings and shrugs off kratom. Not sure, but I personally know peope on both ends of the spectrum when it comes to response. This is why I do not recommend kratom to anyone except people who come from tougher times.

So there it is. I do not recommend kratom unless it is a step up for a person, not down. You may find it an easy situation or hard. Better to play it safe.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

I will note kratom made it much harder for me to get high on traditional psychedelics for a while.

Have the same problem with it. The upside is it greatly helps the come down. Whenever I was ready to stop the experience I could take my usual dose of kratom, lay in bed, and find sleep within a few hours.

 

[xivixive]

During my continuous use my digestion got really inactive,

yes! i can go about two days without even caring to eat anything at all... i've lost 40 lbs since i started... ive always been thin, like 170lbs... i was at 135 last i checked... i do feel weaker as a result of not eating...

i also always plan to taper down... i'll take a few grams off each dose for a few days... then jus say fuck it and take more...

i also am at a bad place in life, pretty miserable at home and work, no other option for relief then kratom due to my legal situation... all that certainly hasnt helped and definitely played a part in how my use got so out of control... its like i hate taking the shit now, it does nothing, but i hate everything all the time anyway... so i psych myself into thinking it makes me in a better mood... but it doesnt... and i just dont get the message... and keep taking it. pretty miserable. i was addicted to real opiates and alcohol for over a decade and in forced sobriety for the next two years... so its pretty easy to hit the fuck it button and just take more kratom.

youd best believe the wd are bad when you are used to taking 10g like every 3 hours... like every drug ive been addicted to i say "i wont let it get that bad".... fucking addict mentality, it is hard to overcome... make good choices in life kids..

 

[Hylight]

i really wouldn't know because i cannot put up with the nausea. i have used it before and it did the trick. however i cannot put up with the awful side effects it causes me. worse than being drunk, but then i don't like to drink. has been a life saver a couple times but that's about it.
i am sure it is mildly to severe addictive but i do not have enough interest in it to worry. i have had a bag of it for so long that i should have put it in the refrigerator and it is probably rotten right now. i am sure it is a valuable asset because it can be effective.

 

[bongdong]

For people who have successfully gotten off kratom--should I just cold turkey it? I'm on 10-15 grams daily. My use isn't that high but I've been on it for 2 years now regularly.

Did people experience PAWs after the first 5 days? Like depression for months? I can't see my kratom use leading anywhere at this point besides more dependency and grief. It can be kind of boring to live life without any substances but there's always marijuana I suppose.

Ad cold turkey: From what you wrote, i don't see any reason why you couldn't/shouldn't give it a try. Don't think there is any physical danger (e.g. seizures etc.) indicated, as far as my knowledge goes. If it doesn't work out, you can always apply a different strategy. It helps to smoke some herb (escpecially with more CBD), i find.

i also am at a bad place in life, pretty miserable at home and work, no other option for relief then kratom due to my legal situation... all that certainly hasnt helped and definitely played a part in how my use got so out of control... its like i hate taking the shit now, it does nothing, but i hate everything all the time anyway... so i psych myself into thinking it makes me in a better mood... but it doesnt... and i just dont get the message... and keep taking it. pretty miserable. i was addicted to real opiates and alcohol for over a decade and in forced sobriety for the next two years... so its pretty easy to hit the fuck it button and just take more kratom.

youd best believe the wd are bad when you are used to taking 10g like every 3 hours... like every drug ive been addicted to i say "i wont let it get that bad".... fucking addict mentality, it is hard to overcome...

Very relatable! Don't know about you, but i'm a 'head-heavy' person which means i'm a champion in making myself miserable. Knowing what i should do but not doing it created such a congnitive dissonance in me that i though i'll burst a frontal lobe at some point! So when you are already really sick of it, as you wrote, perhaps you can use this as lever against your routine! We are i.a. creatures of habit. There is certainly a relief when the monkey is finally off the back, ..maybe a motivation or a goal worth working towards?

All the best..

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Ad cold turkey: From what you wrote, i don't see any reason why you couldn't/shouldn't give it a try. Don't think there is any physical danger (e.g. seizures etc.) indicated, as far as my knowledge goes. If it doesn't work out, you can always apply a different strategy. It helps to smoke some herb (escpecially with more CBD), i find.


Very relatable! Don't know about you, but i'm a 'head-heavy' person which means i'm a champion in making myself miserable. Knowing what i should do but not doing it created such a congnitive dissonance in me that i though i'll burst a frontal lobe at some point! So when you are already really sick of it, as you wrote, perhaps you can use this as lever against your routine! We are i.a. creatures of habit. There is certainly a relief when the monkey is finally off the back, ..maybe a motivation or a goal worth working towards?

All the best..

Dunno if I can do it. First try in and I looked at my arms covered in boosebumps but sweating with zero energy and absurd depression. Kind of just made me not want to live anymore until I redosed Must've woken up 20 times last night.

 

[bongdong]

Dunno if I can do it. First try in and I looked at my arms covered in boosebumps but sweating with zero energy and absurd depression. Kind of just made me not want to live anymore until I redosed Must've woken up 20 times last night.

That's one of the nasty things here; after using for so long one doesn't really know any more how the actual baseline state would feel like. My guess is, that you got yourself into this habit not because your life is all happy and shiny, am i right? So there is the reflex/temptation so say: "I feel like shit because of XY and this is how the future is going to look like for me (foreeeever!) etc." which makes you buy into this funk and then it breaks you.

Win yourself some time, by e.g. saying "i have a limited perspective here, i will evaluate the situation on day XY, but until then i will not react or draw any quick conclusions and be stubborn as a mountaingoat ", ..or something like that. Do you know what i mean? And even if you fall of the wagon after, say 3 days, in this time you have done some work, don't neglect that! The next time you try, it will be easier because of this (unless you use continuously again).

Or you could flip over to the Recovery Support subforum and barf yourself out if you think it might help? But who am i telling, you are way longer here than me. All the best..