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H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist
Homeopathy of Naturopath
- Thread starter punkkkkk
- Start date
lifeisforliving
Bluelighter
^^^
What he said, but I'll say more bluntly:
Homeopathy will only be known as quackey in 20 years.
Naturopath has a future in it, if they get a more balanced view of what is "natural" vs. "synthetic". In my mind, naturopath would be the preferred route because even though it is skeptical of "Western" medicine, it will at least try and subject itself to the scientific method. It can grow as a science and as a discipline.
What he said, but I'll say more bluntly:
Homeopathy will only be known as quackey in 20 years.
Naturopath has a future in it, if they get a more balanced view of what is "natural" vs. "synthetic". In my mind, naturopath would be the preferred route because even though it is skeptical of "Western" medicine, it will at least try and subject itself to the scientific method. It can grow as a science and as a discipline.
a guy posted this.
Homeopathy & Naturopathy, both can compliment each other. (SICK)
Both have more than their capacity for experiments. (SICK)
Both can mint money for you (obviously) depending on your intuition. (SICK)
Naturopathy has limitations verses Homeopathy's limitlessness. (bonus)
Learning Naturopathy is cheap verses Homeopathy. (not a problem)
Homeopathy medicines may aggravate but certain Naturopathy ingredients may kill. (dont care no swaying)
Learning Homeopathy requires an analytically inclined mind verses Naturopathy. (no swaying)
Learning Homeopathy by default may show the way to Naturopathy but not vice vera.(MAKING THINGS WORSE)
Homeopathy medicines are 1:1000 cheaper verses Naturopathy ingredients
Homeopathically inclined patients are 1:100 verses Naturopathy patients
Homeopathy clinic space are lesser 1:10 verses Naturopathy therapy clinics.
Homeopathy all can be carried in a small suitcase. Naturopathy can't. (DONT CARE X4)
Homeopathy is all in the mind. Naturopathy usually is all in the body. (NO SWAYING)
In INDIA, Homeopathy requires a license to practice. Naturopathy does'nt.(PITTY IM NOT INDIAN)
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html
that site basicly rebuts the double blind testing, saying that we arnt capable of measuring the dilutions due to there size.
its still pretty even, i still need some more swaying.
Homeopathy & Naturopathy, both can compliment each other. (SICK)
Both have more than their capacity for experiments. (SICK)
Both can mint money for you (obviously) depending on your intuition. (SICK)
Naturopathy has limitations verses Homeopathy's limitlessness. (bonus)
Learning Naturopathy is cheap verses Homeopathy. (not a problem)
Homeopathy medicines may aggravate but certain Naturopathy ingredients may kill. (dont care no swaying)
Learning Homeopathy requires an analytically inclined mind verses Naturopathy. (no swaying)
Learning Homeopathy by default may show the way to Naturopathy but not vice vera.(MAKING THINGS WORSE)
Homeopathy medicines are 1:1000 cheaper verses Naturopathy ingredients
Homeopathically inclined patients are 1:100 verses Naturopathy patients
Homeopathy clinic space are lesser 1:10 verses Naturopathy therapy clinics.
Homeopathy all can be carried in a small suitcase. Naturopathy can't. (DONT CARE X4)
Homeopathy is all in the mind. Naturopathy usually is all in the body. (NO SWAYING)
In INDIA, Homeopathy requires a license to practice. Naturopathy does'nt.(PITTY IM NOT INDIAN)
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html
that site basicly rebuts the double blind testing, saying that we arnt capable of measuring the dilutions due to there size.
its still pretty even, i still need some more swaying.
lifeisforliving
Bluelighter
^^^
Still need swaying?
How about you use your mind and figure it out yourself.
Homeopathy is quackery, plain and simple. If you enjoy bullshit yourself and like lying to your patients, fine, go learn some magickal homeopathic stuff and waste your time and your patients health.
I don't know enough about naturopathy to give an opnion.
Swaying... sheesh.. choosing a career based the crap you cited.8) How about you do some REAL reseach (off of BLUELIGHT) and find out the reality of both of those "disciplines".
Still need swaying?
How about you use your mind and figure it out yourself.
Homeopathy is quackery, plain and simple. If you enjoy bullshit yourself and like lying to your patients, fine, go learn some magickal homeopathic stuff and waste your time and your patients health.
I don't know enough about naturopathy to give an opnion.
Swaying... sheesh.. choosing a career based the crap you cited.8) How about you do some REAL reseach (off of BLUELIGHT) and find out the reality of both of those "disciplines".
MynameisnotDeja
Bluelight Crew
Isnt naturopathy based on the principle that most disease comes from build up of toxins in the body? I still dont really understand what homeopathy is.
Jimmy the Gun
Bluelighter
notdeja - homeopathy is when dilutions of herbs, fungus, etc. are used to treat ailments. in other words, they take a pure extract and dilute it by hundreds if not thousands of times (put a very small amount in a large amount of water); then they use this extract to treat disease etc.
original poster - Double blind medical studies (look it up if you are unsure of the meaning) don't support the effectiveness of homeopathy when compared to a placebo. This however does not make them ineffective. Placebos can have an incredibly strong effect..people have curred cancer with placebo's.
I personally think that learning either discipline is a worthy persuit but would lean towards the study of natural medicine (full strength treatments).
I would also like to add that a few people in this thread should kick back a bit
peas
original poster - Double blind medical studies (look it up if you are unsure of the meaning) don't support the effectiveness of homeopathy when compared to a placebo. This however does not make them ineffective. Placebos can have an incredibly strong effect..people have curred cancer with placebo's.
I personally think that learning either discipline is a worthy persuit but would lean towards the study of natural medicine (full strength treatments).
I would also like to add that a few people in this thread should kick back a bit
peas
lifeisforliving
Bluelighter
Jimmy the Gun said:
What should be added is that the dilutions they usually speak of are to the point where they are usuallyl unmeasurable by standard means and in many cases statistically have NONE of the original "essence" or "matter" in it.
Agreed, and people should realize that if they are starting a career in homeopathy that they are, in essence, purveyors of placebo and hope.
Agreed. There is much to be discovered and made effective from the natural world which we have yet to properly investigate.
Noted
It's just the homeopathy thingy gets my blood boiling a little. I had a good MSN chat with the IP about this... it's all good.
VelocideX
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 26, 2003
- Messages
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The dilutions are rediculous. It's not that we can't measure them, just that they can't possibly do anything. The dilution of some of the homeopathic medicines is equivalent to one atom in a container of water the size of the earth. That means that essentially every container they produce has nothing in it.
No atoms = no effect. end of story.
As has been said above, no properly constructed double blind study has ever shown homeopathy to be any more effective than placebo. You get the exact same results by giving someone sugar pills. Only problem is that homeopathic preparations cost more than sugar pills, and the consultations (whilst cheaper than a doctor) are exorbitantly expensive, for no effect.
As has been said, naturopathy at least has a future. Many people are now testing "traditional" naturopathic medicines and finding that some are effective (whilst some are not). This is good science. It leads to the isolation of the active compound and better health for all.
The fact that you're employing some 9,000 year old entrail fondling ritual discovered by a yak in tibet that has been employed by a small tribe in lower uganda for thousands of years means absolutely nothing. Double blind testing is the ultimate proof. I'm willing to accept that some naturopathic ingredients have value -- because they demonstrate it on properly controlled, methodologically sound double blind studies.
No atoms = no effect. end of story.
As has been said above, no properly constructed double blind study has ever shown homeopathy to be any more effective than placebo. You get the exact same results by giving someone sugar pills. Only problem is that homeopathic preparations cost more than sugar pills, and the consultations (whilst cheaper than a doctor) are exorbitantly expensive, for no effect.
As has been said, naturopathy at least has a future. Many people are now testing "traditional" naturopathic medicines and finding that some are effective (whilst some are not). This is good science. It leads to the isolation of the active compound and better health for all.
The fact that you're employing some 9,000 year old entrail fondling ritual discovered by a yak in tibet that has been employed by a small tribe in lower uganda for thousands of years means absolutely nothing. Double blind testing is the ultimate proof. I'm willing to accept that some naturopathic ingredients have value -- because they demonstrate it on properly controlled, methodologically sound double blind studies.
MynameisnotDeja
Bluelight Crew
Jimmy the Gun said:
Ahhh....so I take it this is supposed to build an immunity somehow? Kinda like getting a flu shot or something? Im not saying its not a placebo effect, but is that what practitioners claim?
VelocideX
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 26, 2003
- Messages
- 4,745
In getting a flu shot you're given an inactive form of the flu virus -- either bits of the genetic material have been removed, or the virus has been damaged through some process.
In homeopathy, you've given a diluted version where the dilution is specified by either an X or a C
6X means that the substance has been diluted by a factor of 10^6 (i.e. one million). This is relatively common.
a dilution of 3C means that it has been diluted by a factor of 100, 3 times. That is, the dilution factor is 100^3 = 10^6 = 1 million. 10C things aren't that uncommon.
Practitioners claim that the more you dilute the substance, the more powerful the end solution becomes. Try having a look at this website: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/homeopathy.htm
In homeopathy, you've given a diluted version where the dilution is specified by either an X or a C
6X means that the substance has been diluted by a factor of 10^6 (i.e. one million). This is relatively common.
a dilution of 3C means that it has been diluted by a factor of 100, 3 times. That is, the dilution factor is 100^3 = 10^6 = 1 million. 10C things aren't that uncommon.
Practitioners claim that the more you dilute the substance, the more powerful the end solution becomes. Try having a look at this website: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/homeopathy.htm
TheDEA.org
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2003
- Messages
- 2,497
Naturopathy might be 80% ignorant stupidity, but Homeopathy is 100% ignorant stupidity. It isn't merely scientifically unproven; it is wholly divorced from reality.
Homeopathy is the medical version of astrology. If you want to study it for idle amusement or as an exercise in modern anthropology, go for it. If your goal is to be something other than a fraud, forget about it.
Homeopathy is the medical version of astrology. If you want to study it for idle amusement or as an exercise in modern anthropology, go for it. If your goal is to be something other than a fraud, forget about it.
hyperborea13
Ex-Bluelighter
Everyone else beat me to the punch, but I'll say it one more time just in case you need swaying. Double-blind placebo-controlled studies show that homeopathic remedies are no more effective than placebos. That is to say, its bullshit.
Naturopathic medicine has a future as there are many compounds found in nature that are extremely effective and potent. Of course, as a pharmacology student, I'd rather isolate those compounds, derive a synthesis, and mass produce it, but to each their own.
Naturopathic medicine has a future as there are many compounds found in nature that are extremely effective and potent. Of course, as a pharmacology student, I'd rather isolate those compounds, derive a synthesis, and mass produce it, but to each their own.
slyvan wanderer
Bluelighter
my doctor practices both. She is a licensed naturpathic doctor (MD plus a year of schooling) and uses both technicues. Personally I perfer naturpathic as the homopathic can't go through airports (can't be scanned) and need to be taken away form water or food. The naturpathic herbs are great and easier to do. I can feel a difference with the pills. I never had enough time to feel a difference from the homeopathic medicines before I would say screw it. Just make sure to learn the interactions between all the vitamins/herbs/etc you will perscrip. My doc still hasn't told me to not take 5-HTP away from B6 (granted I don't use 5-HTP anymore).
Wow allot of "wise" guys here
Im surprised of all this autority-beleivinh bullshit
Most probably cant even figure out Einsteins theory of energy and matter
If sub-atomic particles exist and if matter has capacity for energy (and it has) then water does indeed function as a body with capacity to store both information and energy as well and since its possible to leave the matters 'seal" it has the ability to expand and merge with the water solution. What im saying is that something reacts with something else, particles/matter and energy waves corespond and have influence on each other, at least thats what i beleive.
If you send waves into a particle that particle/molecule can be changed, matter sends out waves and receives as well E=MC2(potence)
Whatever we call it waves or particles, matter are composed of energy and vibrations and small vibrations are part of bigger vibrations, its all connected, if i take a seal i can leave a print with the aid of paint and paper, water can get a print too
Water is a fluid body and container of both disolved matter as well as vibrational waves emerging from matter as well who is being compressed of this energy we could call morphological fields, all living organism have this field, even minerals has it but on a higher dimensional plane, the 4. dimension, quantum physic knows very well about the possibility of multi dimensional planes.
What makes a plant grow is its morphological field or etheric life forces, we still call flower essense etheric oils and the reason is its lightness as opposed to the more dense cellulose. The etheric is also whats being rayed down from the sun and also being released by radioactivity, but what makes it dangerous is the sheer force power of it.
The atmosphere protects us from this very strong life ether by producing ozone or O3 in the light zone of the sphere as opposed to O2, electricity is light ether one level down earth, we could call it sub-physical, magnetism and atomic force are also part of this sub-physical ether, electricity are being emancipated from organig organism and the earth as a whole radiates magnetism, but if these are sub-physical, we should look at it like reflections, then if the physical form is a midpoint then there are even a higher energy, super-physical who goes up in terms of materiality, this force are not particles, not dense but it exist.
Researches tall also about dark matter and dark energy, they cant see it but its there...
Pyramid also acts like energy atractors
This is what i beleive
Im surprised of all this autority-beleivinh bullshit
Most probably cant even figure out Einsteins theory of energy and matter
If sub-atomic particles exist and if matter has capacity for energy (and it has) then water does indeed function as a body with capacity to store both information and energy as well and since its possible to leave the matters 'seal" it has the ability to expand and merge with the water solution. What im saying is that something reacts with something else, particles/matter and energy waves corespond and have influence on each other, at least thats what i beleive.
If you send waves into a particle that particle/molecule can be changed, matter sends out waves and receives as well E=MC2(potence)
Whatever we call it waves or particles, matter are composed of energy and vibrations and small vibrations are part of bigger vibrations, its all connected, if i take a seal i can leave a print with the aid of paint and paper, water can get a print too
Water is a fluid body and container of both disolved matter as well as vibrational waves emerging from matter as well who is being compressed of this energy we could call morphological fields, all living organism have this field, even minerals has it but on a higher dimensional plane, the 4. dimension, quantum physic knows very well about the possibility of multi dimensional planes.
What makes a plant grow is its morphological field or etheric life forces, we still call flower essense etheric oils and the reason is its lightness as opposed to the more dense cellulose. The etheric is also whats being rayed down from the sun and also being released by radioactivity, but what makes it dangerous is the sheer force power of it.
The atmosphere protects us from this very strong life ether by producing ozone or O3 in the light zone of the sphere as opposed to O2, electricity is light ether one level down earth, we could call it sub-physical, magnetism and atomic force are also part of this sub-physical ether, electricity are being emancipated from organig organism and the earth as a whole radiates magnetism, but if these are sub-physical, we should look at it like reflections, then if the physical form is a midpoint then there are even a higher energy, super-physical who goes up in terms of materiality, this force are not particles, not dense but it exist.
Researches tall also about dark matter and dark energy, they cant see it but its there...
Pyramid also acts like energy atractors
This is what i beleive
Morrison's Lament
Bluelighter
Sorry, but the Pyramid thing at the end as well as the statement "this is what I believe" just sums up what New Age is about, imho, going in circles and quoting the very leading edge of science as proof that long outdated outlandish theories can never be wholly unproven because they are untestable.
What you are saying is that naturopathy is not falsifiable, which amounts to assigning it the status of religion/paranormal rather than science. You can't have it bot ways, I'm afraid. Either it's voodoo or it's medicine.
There is a very very VERY good reason you can't measure those particles, now repeat after me: THEY ARE NO LONGER THERE. Once you dilute something enough there are no longer any active particles from the original solution in there - a popular cold remedy in the United States has a dilution of 200C, which mathematically is less than one molecule per all the known matter in the universe!
You would have to consume every particle in the universe to ensure you got even one molecule of the intended "medicine" in you.
To quote Cecil Adams:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000225.html
Read that link, it's time well spent.
--- G.
p.s. reposting this in different forums won't get you the answers you are looking for, Bluelight is pretty full of scientifically minded people, otherwise we wouldn't be into chemistry
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=219038
What you are saying is that naturopathy is not falsifiable, which amounts to assigning it the status of religion/paranormal rather than science. You can't have it bot ways, I'm afraid. Either it's voodoo or it's medicine.
There is a very very VERY good reason you can't measure those particles, now repeat after me: THEY ARE NO LONGER THERE. Once you dilute something enough there are no longer any active particles from the original solution in there - a popular cold remedy in the United States has a dilution of 200C, which mathematically is less than one molecule per all the known matter in the universe!
You would have to consume every particle in the universe to ensure you got even one molecule of the intended "medicine" in you.
To quote Cecil Adams:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000225.html
Read that link, it's time well spent.
--- G.
p.s. reposting this in different forums won't get you the answers you are looking for, Bluelight is pretty full of scientifically minded people, otherwise we wouldn't be into chemistry
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=219038
lifeisforliving
Bluelighter
Donbon said:
Donbon!
The Scientologists are hiring!
Holy water does work infact, but every matter are in reality composed of vibrational points, if one could see thrue atoms one would see stuff very fogy and not as solid thats what i beleive
Maybe its all just an illusion and maybe the moon are made of green cheese
Maybe its all just an illusion and maybe the moon are made of green cheese
Morrison's Lament
Bluelighter
ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!
Jimmy the Gun
Bluelighter
Don,
please look up double-blind study, then come make your point.
please look up double-blind study, then come make your point.