Homeopathy of Naturopath

[asmodeus256]

I am a first year student at the National College of Naturopathic Medicine and we learn homeopathy as part of the curriculum.

Naturopathic medicine is based on intrinsic healing power of Nature and the human body. The "placebo" effect is essentially the body healing itself. It is an amazingly powerful natural process that is overlooked by the Allopathic medical community.

 

[lifeisforliving]

Naturopathic medicine is based on intrinsic healing power of Nature and the human body. The "placebo" effect is essentially the body healing itself. It is an amazingly powerful natural process that is overlooked by the Allopathic medical community. [/B]

The medical community has not overlooked placebo. In fact, the placebo is a well-known recognized concept that is just far from being fully understood.

That's why in double-blind controlled studies - they study the actual variable (drug/procedure/method) vs. "placebo" instead of "nothing".

It's incredibly interesting.

 

[asmodeus256]

^ Heh, I know.

I just feel that there is a deeper spiritual meaning than most physicans and scientists would admit.

 

[VelocideX]

Wow allot of "wise" guys here

Im surprised of all this autority-beleivinh bullshit

Most probably cant even figure out Einsteins theory of energy and matter

If sub-atomic particles exist and if matter has capacity for energy (and it has) then water does indeed function as a body with capacity to store both information and energy as well and since its possible to leave the matters 'seal" it has the ability to expand and merge with the water solution. What im saying is that something reacts with something else, particles/matter and energy waves corespond and have influence on each other, at least thats what i beleive.

If you send waves into a particle that particle/molecule can be changed, matter sends out waves and receives as well E=MC2(potence)
Whatever we call it waves or particles, matter are composed of energy and vibrations and small vibrations are part of bigger vibrations, its all connected, if i take a seal i can leave a print with the aid of paint and paper, water can get a print too

Water is a fluid body and container of both disolved matter as well as vibrational waves emerging from matter as well who is being compressed of this energy we could call morphological fields, all living organism have this field, even minerals has it but on a higher dimensional plane, the 4. dimension, quantum physic knows very well about the possibility of multi dimensional planes.

This stuff is all rubbish... I'm sorry to be rude, but you really don't know anything about Einstein's work. The lay-person explanation of his ideas gets perverted by people for their own purposes.

Matter doesn't send out and receive waves according to E=MC^2. Matter interacts with other matter via the electromagnetic field and gravity. The E=MC^2 formula is the mass-energy equivalence formula that can be derived within relativity.

Matter and energy aren't composed of vibrations at all (unless string theory is correct -- no-one really has any good idea if it is or isn't). Quantum physics doesn't predict multi-dimensional planes at all. That is a prediction made by string theory (or M theory, etc). Quantum mechanics describes the behaviour of particles via a probabalistic solution to the Schrodinger/Dirac equation, as applied to a particular situation.

Yes, water does have vibrational waves. They're called sound waves, and nothing more.

All of what you have written has precisely zero empirical evidence, nor any support from a rigorous scientific theory.

 

[VelocideX]

Holy water does work infact, but every matter are in reality composed of vibrational points, if one could see thrue atoms one would see stuff very fogy and not as solid thats what i beleive

Maybe its all just an illusion and maybe the moon are made of green cheese

There's pretty good evidence that the moon is not made of green cheese. For starters, measurements of the acceleration due to gravity on the surface have been made, and they are consistent with the moon being made of solid metals with a density roughly similar to Earth's.

As Morrison's Lament quite rightly said, this new-age stuff is entirely rubbish.

You are right however in that atoms are not solid. They're almost entirely composed of empty space. The nucleus occupies (very roughly) 1/10^15 the volume of the atom.

 

[VelocideX]

I am a first year student at the National College of Naturopathic Medicine and we learn homeopathy as part of the curriculum.

Naturopathic medicine is based on intrinsic healing power of Nature and the human body. The "placebo" effect is essentially the body healing itself. It is an amazingly powerful natural process that is overlooked by the Allopathic medical community.

Why is it then that no properly constructed trial of any homeopathic substance produces a better result than a sugar placebo?

 

[asmodeus256]

I don't know. I haven't researched that extensively. It's possible that the studies done on homeopathic medicine have been faulty.

Also it could be because of the nature of statistical studies. It's only significant if the result of the test is less than a given p value. On a wide statistic level, the homeopathic modality might not show a significant value.

However, everyone is different and what works for one person could be bunk for another.

I started my naturopathic school this week, and as an addendum to what I said previously about the "placebo" effect, I'd like to add this.

The placebo effect is labelled differently in naturopathic medicine. It is called "non-specific healing effects". Which is to say, there is healing occuring, however the researchers do not know why.

 

[VelocideX]

You've been completely misled then. The placebo effect is the name for the effect whereby some people get better upon being given an inactive sugar pill.

For example, if you're running a trial for depression, and tell everyone they're being given an antidepressant when they're being given a sugar pill, about 1/3 of them will have complete remission from their depression.

That's not saying they weren't depressed, or that sugar has some magical property... it's merely an indication of the brain's ability to influence the body. This isn't magic, or voodoo nonsense... the brain controls a lot of the hormones in your body. If you believe something strongly enough, that can often change the way your body functions.

You're right in that the placebo effect isn't fully understood. But if homeopathy cannot produce any better results than placebo, why spend lots of money on homeopathic consultations and "medicines" when someone can just give you a sugar pill to the same effect? It would certainly bring prices down.

However, everyone is different and what works for one person could be bunk for another.

.

Completely true. Some medications work very well for some people but not very well for others. Nevertheless they can still demonstrate statistical efficacy. Even in homeopathic trials where the homeopaths choose the "remedy" very carefully for the patient, they never make statistical significance.

 

[VelocideX]

You're also right that the body is amazing in the way it can heal itself.

But say you had a serious illness (cancer, infection, etc), and I could offer you two solutions:
1) Your body can heal yourself through the power of "placebo" (whatever that is -- thoughts, good feelings, prayer etc) and you've got a 30% chance of living
OR
2) you can take a pharmaceutical and you'll have a 60% chance of living.

No-one is saying the pharmaceutical drug will fix your problem. Buy you have MORE of a chance of living with taking it than you would through any non-pharmacological intervention.

I can say with pretty much 100% certainty that you'll take the drug option. If you don't you're not acting in a rational fashion, because you're placing value in a treatment option with demonstrably less success rates on the basis of some irrational reason (untestable belief, ideology, etc).

 

[star*]

I think homeopathy has it's place in our society. It's based on the principle of 'like cures like'. Fair enough alot of it may be a placebo effect but who cares? I mean, if you have a slight ailment and seems to be helped by one of the homeopath's treatments, isnt that a shitloads better than getting drugs off the doctor for the exact same outcome? I know i would rather choose the route least interfering with the bodys natural ability to heal.

Placebo effects are the best medicine's ever. To think that the mind is so powerful that it can 'think' it's way better is amazing to me.

I think homeopathic medicines work best on people whom are very sensitive, also children.

As with naturopathy, it is based on 6 principles
1. The healing power of nature
2. Identify and treat the cause
3. First do no harm
4. Treat the whole person
5. Doctor as teacher
6. Prevention

I think naturopathy is really going to become extremely popular in the future as people begin to feel dis satisfied with western medicine. Naturopathy takes into acount all aspects of one's health and i think that's a big part of where western medicine goes wrong today. I feel doctors are more concerned with treating the symptoms rather than treating the cause. But the way the health care system is set up i dont blame them. It gives no time for doctors to take a thorough case history. They get limited time to converse with their patients and thus the patients feel like they are not being heard correctly. How many times have you been to the doctors and asked the doctor for a script and they've just written it without actually finding out why. It happens all the time.

Their are SO many aspects of one's health to consider. Spiritual, mental, emotional, physical. If one or all of these aspects is diseased than the whole body is effected. I dont think people realise just how intertwined these states are within us.

Naturopathy is all about the whole person. Its all about PREVENTING illness before it happens. People need to take responsibility for their own health instead of relying on drugs to fix them when things finally do go wrong.

 

[VelocideX]

star* -- it's based on the principle of fraud as far as I'm concerned.

*I* care if its a placebo effect, because I'm paying money for treatment.

Would I prefer to pay:
a) $100 for a homeopathy "consultation" + $20 for homeopathic solution to "cure" some minor ailment, OR
b) 30c for a sugar pill that someone tells me will fix my minor ailment

Given that studies repeatedly show that there is no difference in treatment outcome between a and b, i'd pick b any day.

Your body's natural ability to heal, whilst quite significant, is limited in a number of key areas.

Here's whole slew of things with which your body simply can't cope adequately:
AIDS/HIV
cancer
neurodegenerative diseases (or any degenerative disease for that matter) e.g. Alzheimers, Parkinsons, Multiple Sclerosis
Other neurological problems (e.g. epilepsy)
Organ failure e.g. kidney failure, heart failure, liver failure
Burns
Any sort of heart problem
endocrine disorders (which, by definition, are your body malfunctioning)
infections & infestations that do not go away quickly -- by definition your body can't deal with them if they don't go away
many fungal infections
respiratory dysfunction (e.g. asthma)
allergic disorders (anaphyaxis, autoimmune disorders)
eye problems
etc etc

the list goes on.

You know what homeopathy's success rate is at dealing with serious illnesses? no better than placebo.

If you've got cancer, are you going to have surgery and chemotherapy or are you going to see a homeopath?

If you've got kidney failure, are you going to eat 100C kidney stones or go and seek proper treatment?

If you've got a systemic fungal infection, are you going to eat garlic or take life-saving azole antifungals?

What if you've got a deep cut that's become infected? Are you going to eat 100000X amoeba and hope that it goes away? Or are you going to take antibiotics?

The fact is that many homeopathy practitioners claim to be able to treat all of the above, and fail dismally. Some have gone to gaol for manslaughter in these cases.

Placebo effects only go so far, and I for one am not willing to fork out my money for something that is no more effective than placebo.


The only place that homeopaths have in our society is gaol, as far as I'm concerned. They are fraudulent practitioners of a non-verifiable internally inconsistent theory.

 

[Morrison's Lament]

The only place that homeopaths have in our society is gaol, as far as I'm concerned. They are fraudulent practitioners of a non-verifiable internally inconsistent theory.

Have I told you lately that I love you?

--- G.

 

[asmodeus256]

Thank you for the info VelocideX. I do know all that already, however.

There are many other modalities that are a part of Naturopathic medicine. And I feel that many of them would be more appropriate than taking the pharmaceutical route of prescribing drug X for symptom Y, drug Z for symptom A, et cetera.

Another thing which is important to remember is that the patients don't read the textbooks, therefore the specific way a disease will run its course is going to be different every time.

For that, an individualized treatment is needed. Which is what Naturopathic medicine can provide.


Edit:

In response to your comment about conditions that the body cannot heal naturally. You are correct.

But the naturopathic philosophy is that the physician is there to remove any obstructions in path of that natural healing.

Perhaps someone has an autoimmune disease because of poor nutrition. A simple change of diet would cure that, instead of an invasive pharmaceutical.

Alas, there are conditions that are extremely damaging to the body. And there is not much that can be done. At this point the naturopath physician looks at quality of life. What would be better for a patient with terminal cancer? A course of chemotherapy or radiation? Or a few herbs and a change of lifestyle that involves increased exercise and change of diet?

The chemo or radiation therapy might make the person live longer. But at what cost? There are modalities that would allow the patient to live out his or her remaining days with vitality and awareness. I feel that is what is truely important.

 

[VelocideX]

I'm not referring to terminal cancer; I'm referring to early-stage cancer where the patient has a decent chance of recovery.

I agree that naturopathy has some upsides, but a lot of it is based on historical stuff which is plain wrong.

How many autoimmune diseases do you know that are caused by poor nutrition? As far as I'm aware, there aren't any. Autoimmune diseases are poorly understood, I agree, but diet isn't the source. If it was, someone would be filthy rich out of it, and we wouldn't have the problems of rising rates of autoimmune diseases.

The only exception I can think of is coeliac disease, but that's completely understood by conventional medicine.

In any event, all that you've referred to is naturopathy. What about homeopathy?

 

[asmodeus256]

I don't know that much about homeopathy... yet.

I take my first homeopathy course next year. I'm hesitant to really comment much about it because I know very little. I would love to debate the details with you, but it wouldn't be much of a debate.

This is a very heavy subject we are talking about. A subject on which people devote their careers to and write many books about. So I'm content to just leave it how it is and respect your opinion.

I will leave you with this... for any good education, you need a foundation. A base upon which all knowledge and wisdom is place upon.

For my Naturopathic education, that foundation is science.

This first year I am taking year long series of classes in histology, immunology, musculoskeletal anatomy, biochemistry, and organ systems physiology. So naturopathic medicine isn't based on historical inaccuracies. It's based on science.

 

[VelocideX]

I'm glad to hear that your training is based on science.

At the end of the day, remedies work or they don't. They have to demonstrate superior efficacy to placebo, and moreover do it in repeatable well-controlled studies.

I'm all for anything in naturopathy -- if it can be verified as above.

Homeopathy is simply not a scientific theory. It provides no explanation, is internally inconsistent, and is not consistent with the whole of modern science. Empircally, it falls down. Logically, it falls down.