Bupe Heroin to Suboxone- Two Theories

[bp7117]

I've been going back and forth between the two drugs and the subs aren't working as well as they should. I know the exact amount of time to take the first bupe dose varies, depending on each person and their habit. I have read peoples' experiences and tips on the transition and have found two theories on when to take the suboxone:
1. As soon as you start to get sick, take it- If you wait for all the symptoms to fully develop, they won't diminish as much when you take the subs. Ex: Someone said if he took the bupe on the onset of sickness, before he got RLS, he would never get RLS Yet, if he took it 24 hours after his last heroin and he was in full withdrawls, the RLS wouldn't go away.

2. The longer you waIt to take the bupe, the better it will work- for the duration you're on it. Wait at least 24 hours no matter what, but for some reason, if you wait longer (and get sicker), it will work much better.

So, which way works better for you? Any advice on getting through those first two days?

 

[amapola]

If you wait for all the symptoms to fully develop, they won't diminish as much when you take the subs
...
The longer you waIt to take the bupe, the better it will work- for the duration you're on it

I've never heard either of these. Once you get the buprenorphine in your system you should be fine. The only variable influencing you to wait is to avoid precipitated withdrawal.

 

[aac]

I've never heard of either of those theories either. I may be mistaken, but for me I wait until I start to feel a little sick and take suboxone. I usually don't even have to wait a full 24 hours until I feel that way.

Like amapola said, the only reason I can think of to wait to take a suboxone dose is to avoid precipitated withdrawals. Once you are sick or experiencing any withdrawal symptoms you should be fine to take it. I don't think it works better the longer you wait. There have been times where I've had to wait for a dose because of other circumstances and it definitely didn't work better...just left me wishing I had had it sooner.

 

[phr]

1. As soon as you start to get sick, take it- If you wait for all the symptoms to fully develop, they won't diminish as much when you take the subs. Ex: Someone said if he took the bupe on the onset of sickness, before he got RLS, he would never get RLS Yet, if he took it 24 hours after his last heroin and he was in full withdrawls, the RLS wouldn't go awa

That's a dosing issue. Enough bupe wasn't taken.


IME it's best to wait out as long as possible, even more than the recommended time. You'll avoid precipitated withdrawal and your tolerance will drop slightly, meaning you won't need as much bupe to cover you.
SO, if I want do dose 24 hours after my last hit, I might need 20 mg's. If I wait 48 hours, I could probably get away with 16-18mgs. Just a rough example of what worked for me.

Of course this is all assuming that you want to get off the bupe as soon as possible. If not, then take as much as you want and make sure you avoid precipitated wd's.

 

[bp7117]

You guys just proved my point. One of you said to take it on the onset of withdrawal, and one said the longer you wait, the better. Now I'm just as confused.

I usually start withdrawals 10-15 hrs after my last use. That's when I take the bupe. I take 2mgs every 8 hrs the first day, 1mg every 8 hrs for the next two days, then 1mg every 12 hours for 2 days. This is when I usually get some heroin, but the plan is to then go to 0.5 mgs every 12 for 2 days, then once a day for a few days. This time I plan on sticking to my plan. The bupe just isn't doing as much for me as it used to. I had been clean a few years, and back then I remember the subs almost made all the symptoms disappear. They just seem to not nearly work as well as they used to anymore. I got some Xanax and weed to help this time. I take hot showers and try to exercise. Stomach problems have never been an issue for me, but I hear Immodium can help in other ways. Should I get that too? What else can I do?
Cold sweats, knee pain, RLS, and anxiety are big problems, but having no motivation to do absolutely anything (except get heroin) is what I hate the most.

 

[BIGsherm7272]

You are supposed to take bupe when you are in full-on withdrawals......I recommend waiting 16-24 hours before dosing on bupe.

 

[SUB SHOOTER 2010]

I personally dont have to wait until "full-on" withdraws start to occur for me to take bupe. But i do have to wait until i am having some withdraw symptoms to take it though. If you just wanna get high or want to take it before u feel any withdrawal at all then DONT take it. You will go from feeling ok to flat out miserable with no possible way to make it stop but to wait it out. I have transitioned probably 25-30 times from bupe to heroin and bupe to pills and back again on both. Usaully with subutex everytime but occasionally suboxone.

Ive noticed that i start to withdraw on pills like oxycodone and opana a lot quicker than when i use heroin and withdraw. So im able to take bupe sooner when im coming off pills. I can take it about 15 hours after my last heavy use of those pills. Ive only been through prec withdraws really bad 2 times that lasted for days. And for like 15 min or so other times. But all were coming off of bad heroin binges that had lasted for months sometimes.

I should mention that the times that i would use it was always iv whatever i had. And ive seen people on here say that suboxone and subutex are the same but i can tell a difference in many ways. If i am withdrawing and able to take bupe, then suboxone will always put me into a withdraw for 10 min no matter what im IF I IV it. If i take the boxone orally then i wont withdraw for that time. Subutex is way smoother to transition to in my opinion that suboxone especially if IVed.

Also ive taken both after being clean for 30+ days and subutex will make you feel a way better high than suboxone. But both will make you sick if you take more than 2 mg with no tolerance. You only need a tiny piece prob .5 mg to feel it when u have no tolerance to anything

 

[amapola]

You guys just proved my point. One of you said to take it on the onset of withdrawal, and one said the longer you wait, the better. Now I'm just as confused.

You are merely overthinking it. Remember that buprenorphine is just another opioid. Pretend it as absolutely nothing more than longer lasting and stronger heroin and ask yourself what you would do with it. Then you can do exactly that except for one small thing...you can't start taking it while still feeling the effects of a full agonist (including normal baseline if dependent) or you will go into PWD.

The rest is all just personal preference and what purpose the bupe is serving.

 

[DooMMooD]

One is saying wait longer because then you'll need less bupe, because youre tolerance will drop. The other is saying take it sooner but you'll need more bupe.

That is saying the exact same thing. amapola is right, you are totally over thinking it. These are the exact same situations (earlier=more bupe, later=less because you're further into your W/D and closer to the end). So it might be "better" to wait if you have less bupe, or "better" to do earlier if you cant handle the W/D

 

[Jimmy3]

I understand what the original poster is saying. He's confused because there is a lot of debate over when the optimal time to induce bupe is. Everyone should be aware of the potential for prec wd if bupe is taken too early (ie while still high or while opiates are still attached to receptors) but people are always discussing whether they should continue to wait so they can fully avoid prec wd and get the most relief possible. Even with waiting 16-24 hours many people still report some residual precip withdrawl effects. Some believe that waiting even longer and going into full blown withdrawl will allow you to get more relief from the bupe because your receptors are completely empty and starved, meaning the bupe won't have to knock anything off the receptors and can just get to work making you feel better. I agree with this idea but the truth is most of us can't or won't wait longer because we really don't like going through wd. If we could simply just "tough it out" we wouldn't need bupe in the first place. Sorry I'm typing this on my phone and might have left something out, let me know what you guys think. Best wishes to those fighting for their lives..

 

[cj]

I think the correct time varies from person to person so much that its silly to argue about it. Personally I dose as soon as I feel any withdrawl but I dont seem to be inclined to precipitated withdrawl. It also matters how long you where on heroin for if what you bought as heroin was really heroin or some other opiods mixed together. Tolerace to opiates all knds of variables to consider. If you wanna be safe wait till your puking and shaking to take the bupe but for me thats not really neccesary.

 

[Crashing]

The only theory I know of is that the bupe has to enter the system in a way that doesn't chock the receptors. This can be done by titration or playing the waiting game.

Imo just from experience, theoretically you can take bupe immediately after doing heroin as long as the titration starts low enough (think .01mg) and goes on long enough. I feel certain of this. I think that doctors just either don't realize, don't care, or have resentments towards addicts, which is why they strongly suggest to wait until full blown WD. They want you to go on bupe knowing how bad withdrawal is, but really you only get precip if you take too much too fast.

 

[Fuelmeonce]

Generally you want to wait a bit to take your bupe, good rule of thumb is 24hrs. Although I didn't follow this rule and I was fine. Used to have $500/day habit, so waiting 24hrs until full W/D hit was just not happening . I did do a couple shots over a few days while on the bupe, didn't throw me into preip.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

. I did do a couple shots over a few days while on the bupe, didn't throw me into preip.

PW's only occur when you take bupe after you already have opiates in your system.. if you do it the other way around, the bupe will just block most of the effects of the opiates, but you won't go into withdrawal.

 

[Fuelmeonce]

Right right, it was like on day 2 I would say that I crumbled down and had to do a shot, and I took a subby the next morning (shot was done previous night). I do remember getting g slight hot/colds but it wasn't anything too serious. Just a bummer clock restarted. But happily am off of it for the most part now.