Heroin "It's so good you only have to take it once"

[LucidSDreamr]

It was more psychological pain I was in rather than physical. Ive never got much from opiates so it might be me - I just find the high is underwhelming.

Ok that’s a distinction then. Regardless of the pain being physical or psychological opioids are used in medicine because they allow the user to remain mostly “sober minded”…”underwhelming” as you put it, without changing the persons ability to think. While tripping a person can’t behave normally or work or study because they are too altered.

opioids are pretty boring but that’s the beauty of them. No chaos, complete comfort. IV hydromorphone is one unique opioid that shines as the rush is incredible and not replicated by any other opioid.

 

[just a coker 01]

Ok i admit it, i bouight and drunk of a litre and of rum and paid my dealer back and picked up a .5 smoked it, and im back

 

[just a coker 01]

Ok i admit it, i bouight and drunk of a litre and of rum and paid my dealer back and picked up a .5 smoked it, and im back

Monged, pissed and coained up! I know im silly bastard, espicaly as i keep playimg crazy horses by the osmands, and i prophese i dont want to boot up horse

 

[Shambles]

Crazy Horses is the only acceptable Osmonds song.

Enjoy your night ❤

 

[burn out]

I quite like opioids. While I agree with you that a psychedelic can create euphoria far more intense, that's mostly a matter of set and setting. It can also make you anxious, depressed - some people even get irritable on them. Heroin has a predictable, reliable and convenient euphoria. If you know your tolerance, and you know how much you're taking, you can reliably predict what you're going to feel.

Also, some people abstain from psychedelics due to underlying mental health concerns. While psychedelics are far safer than opioids for the general population, they are much more capable of triggering psychosis in someone prone to that. At the same time, though, some people have found that it helps.

My point being, I don't think you can compare them because while they're both capable of creating a euphoric experience, it is done in an entirely different way.

If you don't like heroin, that's probably a good thing.

A lot of heroin addicts, like Jerry Garcia started off using psychedelics but eventually moved onto heroin because it's a much better suited for long term use. Psychedelics are only suitable for occasional use and over use can quickly lead to effects far worse than heroin has, such as life ceasing to make sense and the inability to relate to people who aren't heavy psychedelic drug users (which happens to be most people) so opioids are actually much safer for long term use provided one is in a situation where they can avoid overdose such as having access to pharmaceutical quality and not what is available on the street right now.

But yeah I would argue the appeal of heroin is it's suitability for long term use and pain relieving effect. If someone who had never done drugs before was looking to experience a great high and they had to pick between cocaine, heroin, psilocybin mushrooms, LSD, MDMA, methamphetamine and and marijuana heroin would imo would be the least likely to deliver, save for that small % of the population that just immediately loves opioids. All those other drugs provide more interesting and euphoric highs to the novice user. Think of your first time getting really stoned off weed. Wasn't it more euphoric, mind blowing and interesting than your first time on opioids? I think a lot of people would say yes.

However, for someone who for example is dealing with chronic back pain and trying to work 40 hours a week heroin is much more appealing. A drug like LSD isn't of much use to him, all it's going to do is make him trip out, lose sleep, feel exhausted and then face that depressing feeling of going back to work Monday morning with his boss barking orders at him like nothing happened after this big psychedelic experience that no one else cares about.

 

[Them Witches]

This is why oral bioavailability matters so much and why oxycodone is so much more addicting than morphine…

To most of us you making sense, I am half agreeing that is an attractive aspect but they doctor's are not trained that way. For us uttering those words of common man sense logic to them, will only create worries of compliance denial. Ultimately leaving us with less of a script count and dosage & times between doses so they are feeding are "drug fueled red flag SOS wave"...

They way they are trained is morphine is more sedating period. They reserve it more established opioid tolerant patients that also have breakthru. For some reason they really do not question medical data like they should and do not do enough medical studies on patient like me and other patients like. They stay stuck on the first edition as if there are not us hybrids they can learn valuable medical data to create better protocol offerings to cater to personal plans better. Opioids, alpha2, benzo, sedative, hypnotics are not one size fits all. I am actual working with my doctor to create a new opioid tolerant definition. I do not want to waste the efforts of 38 years Rx opiates/opioids, 25 years alpha2 (Clonidine), and sedative/hypnotics 27 years for non-cancer chronic pain syndrome management, poor prognosis protocol, and acute post-op medicine adjustments with transition protocol tapering back to previous schedule pre-surgery quickly but effectively.

The drug companies have gave shit with only testing on mice, rats, and short lived in-patient studies, and the doctor's have co-signed their bullshit efforts. Pain management is a good source of information but people are generally prognosis poor when they to the point and their is a large untouched gap before it. This is where I can help. After 38 years, I know exactly down to the MME how much 96% of any stage patient needs to complete dependence for 24 hrs with a proper pain relief without stretching the boundaries of no return or going past the doctor's medical judgment of accurate patient requirements timelines of when to increase dosages. Being 100% out of pain with keeping a manageable baseline and leaving room for improvement is nearly impossible with a reward system drug.

Not only that, I am so far past the honeymoon stage that stops at 5 years of non-stop narcotics, I have valuable information on what happens at 10 year, 15, 20, 30 year marks with on in off surgeries keeping the relationship dynamic of give and pull, follow and lead, keeping with in provable medical practice when the DEA keeps calls the doctor's practice asking if John Doe still needs all those damn narcotic pills and isn't it time to taper every month leaning on the doctor and practice manager. That's what they do. And they start with the bottom rung position of pharmacy and them they quaking in their boots.

This is why the doctor's like to write oxycodone for everyone in position rookie lol... The medical data says it is stronger than morphine so that means a smaller dose and less narcotic Rx count. Less pills less Rx diversion... and see the logic relating to potential crime and it keeps the little monsters on weed longer. The medical scene needs some some shaking up new information from patients that have two stories building stacks of Rx documents. The doctor's can't dismiss that with their extend high education because they didn't conduct studies on patient similar to me. I am putting this out their so my dumbass will except I have a job to the betterment of mankind and to keep the pills available with legit protocol studies that makes medical sense. MY doctor and I are working this as we speak and it has to be written in their language they understand or except as worthy of their high-status egos require.

 

[BuprenorphineBrian]

The story of how buprenorphine was testef IS objectively hilarious. But as early as 1973 the drug discovery team at Edinburgh University were suggesting that buprenorphine might be a useful tool in opioid detoxification.

I know the 'tea in the lab' story is funny, but it also shows that even in the hands of 'experts', highly potent opioids are dangerous. It MAY have been the tea incident that lead them to develop buprenorphine and diprenorphine.

What’s the story I never heard it lol

 

[BuprenorphineBrian]

To most of us you making sense, I am half agreeing that is an attractive aspect but they doctor's are not trained that way. For us uttering those words of common man sense logic to them, will only create worries of compliance denial. Ultimately leaving us with less of a script count and dosage & times between doses so they are feeding are "drug fueled red flag SOS wave"...

They way they are trained is morphine is more sedating period. They reserve it more established opioid tolerant patients that also have breakthru. For some reason they really do not question medical data like they should and do not do enough medical studies on patient like me and other patients like. They stay stuck on the first edition as if there are not us hybrids they can learn valuable medical data to create better protocol offerings to cater to personal plans better. Opioids, alpha2, benzo, sedative, hypnotics are not one size fits all. I am actual working with my doctor to create a new opioid tolerant definition. I do not want to waste the efforts of 38 years Rx opiates/opioids, 25 years alpha2 (Clonidine), and sedative/hypnotics 27 years for non-cancer chronic pain syndrome management, poor prognosis protocol, and acute post-op medicine adjustments with transition protocol tapering back to previous schedule pre-surgery quickly but effectively.

The drug companies have gave shit with only testing on mice, rats, and short lived in-patient studies, and the doctor's have co-signed their bullshit efforts. Pain management is a good source of information but people are generally prognosis poor when they to the point and their is a large untouched gap before it. This is where I can help. After 38 years, I know exactly down to the MME how much 96% of any stage patient needs to complete dependence for 24 hrs with a proper pain relief without stretching the boundaries of no return or going past the doctor's medical judgment of accurate patient requirements timelines of when to increase dosages. Being 100% out of pain with keeping a manageable baseline and leaving room for improvement is nearly impossible with a reward system drug.

Not only that, I am so far past the honeymoon stage that stops at 5 years of non-stop narcotics, I have valuable information on what happens at 10 year, 15, 20, 30 year marks with on in off surgeries keeping the relationship dynamic of give and pull, follow and lead, keeping with in provable medical practice when the DEA keeps calls the doctor's practice asking if John Doe still needs all those damn narcotic pills and isn't it time to taper every month leaning on the doctor and practice manager. That's what they do. And they start with the bottom rung position of pharmacy and them they quaking in their boots.

This is why the doctor's like to write oxycodone for everyone in position rookie lol... The medical data says it is stronger than morphine so that means a smaller dose and less narcotic Rx count. Less pills less Rx diversion... and see the logic relating to potential crime and it keeps the little monsters on weed longer. The medical scene needs some some shaking up new information from patients that have two stories building stacks of Rx documents. The doctor's can't dismiss that with their extend high education because they didn't conduct studies on patient similar to me. I am putting this out their so my dumbass will except I have a job to the betterment of mankind and to keep the pills available with legit protocol studies that makes medical sense. MY doctor and I are working this as we speak and it has to be written in their language they understand or except as worthy of their high-status egos require.

I get it

At 18 started with codeine/percs
By 19 was on OXY
21 went on methadone
24 was on 120mg of methadone and at that time they stopped your dose at those levels so I started using fentanyl patches and I would chew them usually about two of the 50 µg patches a day at that time there was no fentanyl test at the clinic

By 31 I decided I wanted to get clean so I stopped the fentanyl cold turkey and cut down my methadone dose and slowly taper for about 11 months until I got to 0 but then I started relapsing again

So 32 went on Suboxone and i’ll be turning 44 this October and I have not used any thing other than my buprenorphine and my Xanax and my Vyvanse since

 

[BuprenorphineBrian]

Kinda scary to think I been on an opioid and alprazolam every single day for 26 years.

 

[Them Witches]

Jerry Garcia started off using psychedelics but eventually moved onto heroin because it's a much better suited for long term use.

Let me throw arrest that thought before people start thinking they can continue his doings. Jerry moved and stayed on dope because his constant bank flow and high purity connection status would not allow him to have a rational common man addict saga experience. Our rock bottom was deep and dark, he only had to go down half a flight of stairs. Just like Lane Staly didn't stand a snowball's chance hell of staying clean off 3grams raw dope and 3grams crack daily because the royalty checks keep coming in distracting his 10 rehab getting clean efforts and brief chances to acknowledge his better sense talking to him plus rock star status quality dope connects. I would have never gotten off dope if I had their money and fame pull on people. I couldn't not have panic attacks on pay day to use after being 9 weeks clean, I couldn't leave the house with cash in my pocket more than $5 bucks and my mom have to hold my accounts and debit card. Shit if I drove pass the open air drug market 1 mile away on the interstate doing 65mph, my brain and stomach could smell it like a bloodhood and it would mess me up. I'd stop call my sponsor on the shoulder and start writing step work to not pull a U-turn. And many times that was not cutting the mustard my addiction was licking the jar clean. Doing push-ups while I was sleeping.

I know Jerry and Lane where not even questioning the same thought we shared, endless money and fame status is a junkie's demise... 1% of them overcame that addiction in that field of work. 10% common man didn't relapse more than twice, prove me wrong. I will wait. All due respect sir, I am speaking the facts on low purity heroin #4 with traphouse cutting agents day after day. Again start giving any junkie 75 % pure heroin #4 verse street 5-10% and tell he has endless money and the plug is on time and answers only once and it is done, that junkie will never complete a rehab. Be like they had earplugs in the whole rehab and wore a blindfold and got a phonecall message the backdoor is open just for you. Their brain will say rehab is always going to be here and the plug still has 4ozs of that stuff that killed the whole bowling alley waiting for you. that is how the brain responds to these factors Jerry and Lane delt with. Let alone the common man's habit.

You can trust me 100%. The FBI asked 10 people they offer to testify against the head dealers or be indited, I quote ,"Them Witches in all these here 100 pictures just went ghost with no activity on his bank account, cell phones, and was not in the end of the investigation stage. The DA said that would imply he was serious about his decision to leave the team. You fools should of taken note." I had a $3000 credit daily on #4 75% before it cut with morphine. I had to request the morphine. Not trying to sound cool or measure my pecker. I had a alarming dealers habit verse the normal that was turned on two dubs of the morphine cut. Sometimes God will send an angel to people just once, and will propose a proper and true plan of exit from the flames clear concise voice in our heads unfamiliar to us. I didn't wait for the addict brain to kick in to speak, I turned off all radio signals in my brain from then but one way out of town. Even with that kind of experience, if my bank account was $450,000 like Lane's or $6,500,999 like Jerry's. I would be doing 15 years before my first parole on that stint and my 4 exsponged felonies would became active and going back in. With take time, I would never leave cuz I ain't down with rape shit and being tried over and over.

I typed all this which I normally do not do, not just for you. but anyone else that reads this it might help. thank you for sharing your reply quote status with me. later

 

[4DQSAR]

Kinda scary to think I been on an opioid and alprazolam every single day for 26 years.

That's a pretty good outcome. Nice to hear it can be done.

 

[aftershocknrock]

To most of us you making sense, I am half agreeing that is an attractive aspect but they doctor's are not trained that way. For us uttering those words of common man sense logic to them, will only create worries of compliance denial. Ultimately leaving us with less of a script count and dosage & times between doses so they are feeding are "drug fueled red flag SOS wave"...

They way they are trained is morphine is more sedating period. They reserve it more established opioid tolerant patients that also have breakthru. For some reason they really do not question medical data like they should and do not do enough medical studies on patient like me and other patients like. They stay stuck on the first edition as if there are not us hybrids they can learn valuable medical data to create better protocol offerings to cater to personal plans better. Opioids, alpha2, benzo, sedative, hypnotics are not one size fits all. I am actual working with my doctor to create a new opioid tolerant definition. I do not want to waste the efforts of 38 years Rx opiates/opioids, 25 years alpha2 (Clonidine), and sedative/hypnotics 27 years for non-cancer chronic pain syndrome management, poor prognosis protocol, and acute post-op medicine adjustments with transition protocol tapering back to previous schedule pre-surgery quickly but effectively.

The drug companies have gave shit with only testing on mice, rats, and short lived in-patient studies, and the doctor's have co-signed their bullshit efforts. Pain management is a good source of information but people are generally prognosis poor when they to the point and their is a large untouched gap before it. This is where I can help. After 38 years, I know exactly down to the MME how much 96% of any stage patient needs to complete dependence for 24 hrs with a proper pain relief without stretching the boundaries of no return or going past the doctor's medical judgment of accurate patient requirements timelines of when to increase dosages. Being 100% out of pain with keeping a manageable baseline and leaving room for improvement is nearly impossible with a reward system drug.

Not only that, I am so far past the honeymoon stage that stops at 5 years of non-stop narcotics, I have valuable information on what happens at 10 year, 15, 20, 30 year marks with on in off surgeries keeping the relationship dynamic of give and pull, follow and lead, keeping with in provable medical practice when the DEA keeps calls the doctor's practice asking if John Doe still needs all those damn narcotic pills and isn't it time to taper every month leaning on the doctor and practice manager. That's what they do. And they start with the bottom rung position of pharmacy and them they quaking in their boots.

This is why the doctor's like to write oxycodone for everyone in position rookie lol... The medical data says it is stronger than morphine so that means a smaller dose and less narcotic Rx count. Less pills less Rx diversion... and see the logic relating to potential crime and it keeps the little monsters on weed longer. The medical scene needs some some shaking up new information from patients that have two stories building stacks of Rx documents. The doctor's can't dismiss that with their extend high education because they didn't conduct studies on patient similar to me. I am putting this out their so my dumbass will except I have a job to the betterment of mankind and to keep the pills available with legit protocol studies that makes medical sense. MY doctor and I are working this as we speak and it has to be written in their language they understand or except as worthy of their high-status egos require.

100 percent agree. Most doctors knowledge of pharmacology and pharmacodynamics is extremely poor. I have first hand experience from my gf studying medicine so she would tell me stuff and i would routinely sit in on lectures i found interesting (free knowledge why not right) and they only dedicated one module (about 1 month of study) to medicinal chemistry /pharmacodynamics and the sense i got from the students was this was filler to bulk out the course, not critical information.

I have an uncle who is a consultant surgeon and every time he talks to me about my meds or my drug use he gets incredably irate and indignant when i dare to try have an adult conversation using my own knowledge and skills. He strait up tells me im arrogant for proffesing to know anything at all about medicine/my conditions, even when what he is saying is wrong or outdated....he is the doctor and thus tantamount to a god and how dare he be questioned by a mere mortal ffs. He actually said i should go on buprenorphine for my cocaine habit!

Its getting bad here too. I am prescribed several opioids benzos and pregabalin and i used to have a script for clonidine and for clomethiazole which is a novel but antiquated sleeping agent. However because of my high dose benzo script i was put on clomethiazole because it dosnt have (much of) a cross tolerance with benzos and it was tremendously helpful for me. I was on it for years at the same dose i was initially prescribed with zero issues but my pharmacist stared kicking up a fuss about it being dangerous that i had to stop that medication or they would stop dispensing everything to me! And i couldnt just switch chemist, it was incredibly difficult to find a pharmacist who would dispense it in the first place ffs so i was backed into a corner, had to come off that and the clonidine

 

[4DQSAR]

I would strongly suggest you treat clomethiazole with extreme respect. It's only really suitable for in-patient settings and in patients who aren't using non-prescribed CNS depressants. Great for status epilepticus, superb for alcohol detoxification but a medicine I would personally consider a DLR.

In the UK during the 1970s GPs were over-prescribing clomethiazole for outpatient treatment of alcohol detoxification and just a couple of drinks can result in very bad outcomes.

It's every bit as dangerous as barbiturates and produce that same loss of judgement and memory so people would often redose by accident. In the end we ended up with a special clomethiazole detoxification unit in Cambridge. So I would suggest it's likely just as dependence forming.

Glad you are off the stuff, don't want to see you coming to grief with the stuff.

If you already know all of the above, I can only apologise and suggest that it may be of value to other BLers.

 

[Them Witches]

I get it

At 18 started with codeine/percs
By 19 was on OXY
21 went on methadone
24 was on 120mg of methadone and at that time they stopped your dose at those levels so I started using fentanyl patches and I would chew them usually about two of the 50 µg patches a day at that time there was no fentanyl test at the clinic

By 31 I decided I wanted to get clean so I stopped the fentanyl cold turkey and cut down my methadone dose and slowly taper for about 11 months until I got to 0 but then I started relapsing again

So 32 went on Suboxone and i’ll be turning 44 this October and I have not used any thing other than my buprenorphine and my Xanax and my Vyvanse since

To be clear I was not calling opioid naive. thank you for showing me your experience. I would never type like that again on your comments leaning 1% towards I may know more than you or anyone again. I feel bad making feel the need to clarify you history. Justified.

I haven't had a break since the age 7, for more than 10 months in a row. I was dependent to morphine suppositories and hydrocodone by age 10 and no kid should grow up that way. It was demorol and morphine at 15 to 20. Before it was IV heroin. Then methadone 180mg and Clonidine for 6 years., Ten months clean time straight until IV heroin #4 75% for 3 years. then degenerative bone disease, 6 ankles fusions, a knee replacement, and achilles tendons decline past 60%. prognosis poor and three heart disorders. the past 15 years without missing a day it has been Roxi 30mg 6-10 per day, methadone 10mg 4-8 per day, with Clonidine 0.4-1.2mg 25 years, Ativan or Xanan for the 12 years, Lunesta 3mg or Haldol 20mg w/ Ambien 10mg 20 years. Visteril PAM 100-200mg. and 3 other blood pressure pulse meds enough doses to treat 4 adults.

Brother I am trying to measure pain with you or tolerance. I could learn something from you and you from me. We should not waste the medical information and give it to the people that will need it. You now know in your heart if I get cancer like this it will be so hard to manage pain at the beginning let alone hospice with out being in induced coma. My pockets do not run that deep to support that much custom narcotic demand and I do not want to burden my family's money in this current world. I have now have SVT, bradycardia, AFIB, hypertension II, and a pulse rate that send most people to ER every other day freaking. So I guess my intentions earlier with you was to be helpful with medical data vomit and help some people out.

Bro honestly, I am doing a great job faking how I really feel daily with my loved ones and I cannot ever put this sake of weight from health issues down. I wish I could stand listen to anyone, " God has a plan don't worry." So I hope your health issues to turn into diagnosis poor like me with me dependence tolerance and lowkey the biggest addict out many people here. Not a day that goes by I do not dream about living in India working on a poppy field. Trying to manage chronic pain syndrome without taking anymore meds is a battle and a respected effort by all that know. You know there will never be enough at this point just enough to keep the dependence in check, some pain relief, and having the DEA breathing down my provider's neck every other month. Like my brain would know regrow mu, delta, kappa, gaba, alpha2 receptors at this point and PAWS would never stop. too late for me to get. I didn't stand at chance at age 15 of that. I am compulsively thinking about not getting cancer because I know already too many that have had it and what they needed to have a quality of life as pain relief and the mental base to take that on. If they are not trying sedate a elephant status for me I see my pulse being so low they are scared while my brain is yelling yes louder than my heart is saying no . my good friend made it 8 years with pancreatitis cancer and I saw what he required. I am 30% tops from his end result and I had 20 years of Rx before him. my doctor bless his heart keeps me calm as can legally afford to. so that makes me lucky and blessed. have an awesome day and if you read all of this thank you, your a real one in my book. catch on the next thread

was raising 3 stepsons, my daughter and a wife like this doing X-ray welding and pipefitting for NASA and almost every government base on the east from NC to NYC and Long Island. Not caring one shit about myself or my future. 4 doctors convienced my stopped working and I got SSI disability on the first try with 5 complicated disorders conflicting with each other. Got Medicare A,B, and Wellness Rx Plan coverage at 43, not 65. Didn't even apply for it.

 

[Them Witches]

100 percent agree. Most doctors knowledge of pharmacology and pharmacodynamics is extremely poor. I have first hand experience from my gf studying medicine so she would tell me stuff and i would routinely sit in on lectures i found interesting (free knowledge why not right) and they only dedicated one module (about 1 month of study) to medicinal chemistry /pharmacodynamics and the sense i got from the students was this was filler to bulk out the course, not critical information.

I have an uncle who is a consultant surgeon and every time he talks to me about my meds or my drug use he gets incredably irate and indignant when i dare to try have an adult conversation using my own knowledge and skills. He strait up tells me im arrogant for proffesing to know anything at all about medicine/my conditions, even when what he is saying is wrong or outdated....he is the doctor and thus tantamount to a god and how dare he be questioned by a mere mortal ffs. He actually said i should go on buprenorphine for my cocaine habit!

Its getting bad here too. I am prescribed several opioids benzos and pregabalin and i used to have a script for clonidine and for clomethiazole which is a novel but antiquated sleeping agent. However because of my high dose benzo script i was put on clomethiazole because it dosnt have (much of) a cross tolerance with benzos and it was tremendously helpful for me. I was on it for years at the same dose i was initially prescribed with zero issues but my pharmacist stared kicking up a fuss about it being dangerous that i had to stop that medication or they would stop dispensing everything to me! And i couldnt just switch chemist, it was incredibly difficult to find a pharmacist who would dispense it in the first place ffs so i was backed into a corner, had to come off that and the clonidine

your in the thick of the struggle too... god forbid some of us get cancer before be completely tapered with significant clean time. this is why this week i contacted my doctor with a heart to heart about documenting our work to establish some new medical views for any other patients I expire before. I got to do something to seal the deal with these angels to make up for my slime and ungodly sins against world. fuck health issues, you never get to put down the heavy ass baggage. and we have learned to not talk about our daily pains but have to listen people never stop talking about how bad their pain is in my air space. I know they need to cuz they are crying out for some support. I did it too.

I am proud of myself for fighting each for something better even with a few crutches. at least I know the truth about more than i should. and I know that chronic pain syndrome will submit a UFC fighter before they know it with all their ego and conditioning. I have a profound respect for others that is teachable, someone else always has it worse than me. thats fact, they are waiting to comforting by a real man in pain management, a kids cancer hospital, and in and out at the pharmacy all day. I am nothing special but I know exactly where I stand in this world. Honestly, I am at full piece with the dirt nap at 47. a profound outlook on the world that is useful this day and age

 

[aftershocknrock]

I would strongly suggest you treat clomethiazole with extreme respect. It's only really suitable for in-patient settings and in patients who aren't using non-prescribed CNS depressants. Great for status epilepticus, superb for alcohol detoxification but a medicine I would personally consider a DLR.

In the UK during the 1970s GPs were over-prescribing clomethiazole for outpatient treatment of alcohol detoxification and just a couple of drinks can result in very bad outcomes.

It's every bit as dangerous as barbiturates and produce that same loss of judgement and memory so people would often redose by accident. In the end we ended up with a special clomethiazole detoxification unit in Cambridge. So I would suggest it's likely just as dependence forming.

Glad you are off the stuff, don't want to see you coming to grief with the stuff.

If you already know all of the above, I can only apologise and suggest that it may be of value to other BLers.

Grat point i should have mentioned for HR, only the fact that getting your paws on it outside a clinical environment is very unlikely...HOWEVER DO NOT FUCK WITH CLOMETHIAZOLE it is notorious for OD;s especially when combined with other CNS depressants.

Never apologise for providing useful information, we all are still learning and an all benefit from as much clear and concise info, thank you!

BTW i always treated clomethiazole with extreme caution and you are s;ot on with all that info. My dose was three 196 mg (or something similar i forget) caps at night and that put me out like a light. I have quite the history of trauma so sleep has always been an issue. My doctor and i have a great relationship that took many many years to establish and i would have regular check ups to evaluate my meds.
Whats interesting is in the three years i was on clomethiazole my dose never changed, it was always effective and when i was abruptly taken off them there was no withdrawals! Now i should add i was put on 10 mg nitrazepam for sleep as a replacement but i expected some kind of withdrawal given the fact clomethiazol hits barbiturate receptors as well as gabba. A unique and helpfull medicine for sure but as you say can be very dangerous.

 

[4DQSAR]

BTW i always treated clomethiazole with extreme caution and you are s;ot on with all that info. My dose was three 196 mg (or something similar i forget) caps at night and that put me out like a light.

THREE. That's the very top end of the prescribable dose range (assuming them to be 192mg clomethiazole freebase in an oily suspension).

Nitrazepam is, as the name suggests, a nitrobenzodiazepine so don't assume it to be as non-toxic as, say, diazepam. I looked at the suicide-rate in Sweden and noted that a huge number were intentional overdoses of nitrazepam, flunitrazepam and to a lesser extent clonazepam. Now to me it's counter-intuative that flunitrazepam is MORE toxic than nitrazepam and I'm not sure if anyone knows the exact reason - but it shocked me.

So when I see RC nitrobenzodiazepines... I tend to think that yes, it's likely the most potent so most profitable, but once again, loss off judgement, loss of memory means as powders - they seem a bad idea.

Thing is - Survivorship bias might suggest more safety than is in fact the case.

 

[Them Witches]

100 percent agree. Most doctors knowledge of pharmacology and pharmacodynamics is extremely poor. I have first hand experience from my gf studying medicine so she would tell me stuff and i would routinely sit in on lectures i found interesting (free knowledge why not right) and they only dedicated one module (about 1 month of study) to medicinal chemistry /pharmacodynamics and the sense i got from the students was this was filler to bulk out the course, not critical information.

I have an uncle who is a consultant surgeon and every time he talks to me about my meds or my drug use he gets incredably irate and indignant when i dare to try have an adult conversation using my own knowledge and skills. He strait up tells me im arrogant for proffesing to know anything at all about medicine/my conditions, even when what he is saying is wrong or outdated....he is the doctor and thus tantamount to a god and how dare he be questioned by a mere mortal ffs. He actually said i should go on buprenorphine for my cocaine habit!

Its getting bad here too. I am prescribed several opioids benzos and pregabalin and i used to have a script for clonidine and for clomethiazole which is a novel but antiquated sleeping agent. However because of my high dose benzo script i was put on clomethiazole because it dosnt have (much of) a cross tolerance with benzos and it was tremendously helpful for me. I was on it for years at the same dose i was initially prescribed with zero issues but my pharmacist stared kicking up a fuss about it being dangerous that i had to stop that medication or they would stop dispensing everything to me! And i couldnt just switch chemist, it was incredibly difficult to find a pharmacist who would dispense it in the first place ffs so i was backed into a corner, had to come off that and the clonidine

5 months ago I meet our area's best hospital heart doctor on a ER admission to his "heart patient" floor for my bradycardia of 32bpm. He thought it would smooth sailing cold turkeying my ass off Clonidine 0.9mg, Lunesta 3mg, Ativan 2mg, Toprol 100mg, Lisinipril 40mg, Dilitazem 240mg, and thought he could top it off with all these at once with Roxicodone 210mg after not missing a day's dose in 15 years off all these. And proudly said your Methadone 30mg will be sufficient you will perfectly fine. I gave him the "what you talkN' about Willis look...puzzled, more puzzled. No shit, my reply while pulling out my phone, "Wait tilI my PCP answers this phone... one second.. ringing... my snarking retort, "What medical reference did you learn that from." Dude looked at me like he wanted to scold me. Tell the doctor quickly, he replies,"Demand IV removal and discharge." . My Dad's poor face of concern broke me . " I will only stay if I am given my Oxycodone now and every 4hrs sharp."

Well that didn't happen and it turned into a battle to get my meds on time. I was driven mad detoxing from all those meds and I was on the verge of being detained by security and catching a disturbing the peace charge. I was ready for war at this point and mad that they would not even give me half dosages of the meds I was in withdrawal from. A hospital is the best place for experiments and if the patient has any issues they are there to handle it. The experience created danger to my health because after I discharged myself, I was headed home to take all of the meds I was in withdrawal from. This can be risky for a patient causing a rebound effect and increases the chance for an overdose.

I learned that day the reasons for bringing all of my medications to the hospital and tell the staff this is not the case. After discharging myself at 5am, I missed out staying in the hospital longer to gain for information by taking more tests or a better observation. The hospital ended up changing "discharge early" to "completed stay" and called two days later with a appointment information for a cardiologist follow up. At the follow up, I explained what happened and now I am not trusting of that hospital. I firmly explained that there is no evidence of medical data stating it is okay to remove sensitive medications without doing a proper taper. By doing that my life was put at risk and forcing cold-turkey after decades of being on these meds, an increased risk of patient harm becomes reality as they try to instantly re-adjust taking them to stop withdrawals. I told the cardiologist the next time I go to said hospital, I will bring an agreed contract of how protocols will take place and why. Yeah, they developed this and will have to accept it.

 

[aftershocknrock]

II messgae I thought you would like...

5 months ago I meet our area's best hospital heart doctor on a ER admission to his "heart patient" floor for my bradycardia of 32bpm. He thought it would smooth sailing cold turkeying my ass off Clonidine 0.9mg, Lunesta 3mg, Ativan 2mg, Toprol 100mg, Lisinipril 40mg, Dilitazem 240mg, and thought he could top it off with all these at once with Roxicodone 210mg after not missing a day's dose in 15 years off all these. And proudly said your Methadone 30mg will be sufficient you will perfectly fine. I gave him the "what you talkN' about Willis look...puzzled, more puzzled. thought about the professional response?" No shit, my reply while pulling out my phone, "Wait til I my PCP answers this phone... one second.. ringing... my snarking retort, "What medical reference did you learn from for this whole patient?" Dude looked at me like he wanted to scold me. So I put my hand and gave him the wait talk to the hand my doctor is picking his cell... Tell the doctor quickly, he replies,"Demand IV removal and discharge. Lawyer territory, I hate Riverside, gotta go." Speaker phone alerted him and my Dad. My Dad's poor face of concern broke me for the last time, OK. I will give them 4 hrs tops to show me something Dad. Mr. Heart Dr. ," I will only stay if I am given my Oxycodone now and every 4hrs sharp." ,"Deal Them Witches, the nurse will right in."

Nurse writes medication management and pain control and active heart diagnosis for duration on my dry erase board. I think OK, the Dr listened to me. I had to keep calling the nurse every 4hrs for the Roxi 30mg like it is God'd gift to the world, not to me, nothing to get exited about. Dad pleads I am worried about with nurse the room. She said,"I might not be back in 4hrs, I got stuff to do for shift change. BTW, the Clonidine, Lunesta, and Ativan are not coming." 0 to 100 anger level in two seconds,"Fuck No! Discharge me now at defcon 8 tone and bass.." Nurse Retort,"You do not have to swear me!!" Dad's face sags... My retort,"I didn't swear at you singular, it plural for the whole goddam floor and so the Dr could hear wherever the fuck he is at." Nurse firmly," Do I need to call security, sir?" My reply,"Obviously I am no damn Sir here. My bottom gutter self will require at least three security guards." Dad jump out the chair at the nurse,"Please forgive my son, he is distressed and not himself at the moment. Let me calm him down and be the voice of reason." I tell my Dad,"it is time to go, time to go, get this damn IV out my arm and these wires off me before I do it and break them." MY Dad is worried and a tear develops down his face...," OK, I will try it there way for a little bit and see how it goes."

Blowing the nurses station every 3hrs and 50mins for the Roxi 30mg and extra Methadone saying I have my PCP's proxy he said. I will call him to confirm this order change. I thought I was doing something. Those people didn't bring me that extra methadone and made me wait an hour for Rx'd Roxi off 15 years. I have never been this off by 1 hour, how can they start this behavior..? Few hours later the Clonidine 0.6-0.9mg outpatient 25 year compliant me had not experienced what was coming. Clonidine withdrawal started, 30 mins Lunesta withdrawal started after 10 years not missing a one dose, Ativan withdrawal started after 12 year benzo dependence. This what I was concerned about earlier. Roxi withdrawal starts because I have lost 6hrs of blood plasma levels for the first time in 15 years of a 38 year total opioid dependence. I lost my shit and I was headed to catch a charge with security calling 911. I walked to the nurses station at 4am while they were snacking on junk food with their thumbs up each other's ass. "CALL THE DR NOW, they wrote medication management on my board and it is not happening that way. I am in an in-patient setting where if something goes wrong from giving a half of my meds I am Rx'd, you guys can spring to action and do what Medicare is paying you for me!" Their reply,"The doctor was to make that order and he went home for the night, we think he will be here at 8am."

Walked to my room and slammed that 350lb new fire rated door that shook like a plane hit the building at 4am. Started throwing the excess stupid chairs in my room in my way of where I needed to be. Later I found out they had given me adrenaline without telling me, so that was a poor call. Yell down the hallway,"Discharge now, I am calling Uber." I figured they were calling 911. So I called Uber and started packing shit. Well Clonidine is not a fun cold turkey at those doses with those meds and it was a 1st time joy for me. I start shaking so hard I cannot stand up and nurse it tweaking asking me if I am ok, for real Sir, are you okay? You shaking, sweating, aggressive, you pulse has gone from 32 to 169 and you BP is 230/140. I need to code you and not let you go for your safety, well-being, and your love ones please try to calm down do my job... ,"Fuck you rookie ass 21 years old late to the party MF. I got this, I going to take these meds in 20mins at my house without yalls dumb ass training and concern. You guys are going to always remember not learn your damn medical protocols for tapering and all the meds I take before this hospital kills someone and get a lawsuit. My PCP will be calling you. Get your equipment off me before I might damage on accident." 3 medical supervisors enter the room like they are here to be a witness to something. One more word,"I am cold turkey off 4 documented protocol tapering medication that could effect me, what point are you displaying here. When I got home in 20 mins alone away from you guys, I am going to take all of these medications at once to stop this. If something happens it your professional medical training that is supposed to save lives for good damn money and given too much blind trust from a person need, the whole critical top dog heart unit for our 7 city area, your Dr, the whole floor, and 2 shifts just failed one man making him feel like a drug addict for being a compliant patient taking what is written for me."...You have stuff to sign to discharge Sir...,"Nope, call my Doctor and ask him to sign off on this, move it or lose it. Once I start in this shape I am not going to stop."

OK..I know this is long. Thank you, I will wrap it up, but I am proud to recall this much detail, it's healing...

Two days they call to tell me they scheduled my follow up with the out-patient heart Dr for me and completed discharge paperwork, but the Dr signed off and said it is not going to charged like a typical discharge that will be against you you future visits.... Thanks bye. Go to there doctor, his nurse comes in. Quickly, I say,"if you guys ever send me to that hospital for a procedure I wont go so we can nip this in the bud now. Nurse emails the Dr in the other room to tell him. It's ok he said they refer it out to another hospital but the Dr want to meet you and talk to you about this encase he can help in any way while you here. "What happened Sir.." Well the crazy eyes pop out, I start shaking, tense, off edge clearly... I lay it out like I just did for you play for play on this post. Closing with there was one Dr with a wooden cross on his neck that I actually felt good with that visit, he his the only way and I will bring all my medications with me do not care about your rules not bring them, you guys clearly do not earn that dominance over me. And I will bring a contract for your triage nurse to sign stating you will not remove any of my medications from me backpack and if you consider to taper off something, you have to get it approved from my PCP doctor if his orders are not honored and a secondary approval in writing from me and you triage nurse witness signs and the ER managers signs this paper before I enter I will not enter and the appointment co-pay for me or Medicare will not be charged if I do not sign, you sign, and my doctor over the phone confirms his approval in triage.

Next time I went to the out-patient heart practice after my Holter montior install, everyone knew who I was without seeing the first appointment where I set the stage of a personal custom contract to enter there top-tier reputation hospital. And the Dr I meet the first that had visit with me would not even exchange a facial hello with me with eyes to the floor except for one brief second cause I was being felt and I had left my scent on that place. Nobody had put them in check like that at the heart ward floor and the out-patient place like that. This is why I typed all this for you because, you know how stuck up and self-centered they all are to the core to our face and worse behind our backs cause be didn't go to their schools. And out of their education schools, co-workers, common practice friends, you know how they really treat us and their insurance buddy friends are all in it too, thus America was thrilled and meme city appreared overnight on social media about the Insurance CEO getting wacked in NYC. We are feed up with it and things have got to change. Thank you I am out.

Hermano i have to go wer puttin on a free rave tonight an i still have bare work to do, i need a pill an a drink

I will read your post in detail when i get back an i still wanna reply to one other post of yours. Much love brother. PS this had me rolling -I gave him the "what you talkN' about Willis look- hahah

 

[4DQSAR]

Play this before you go out:



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