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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Heroin "It's so good you only have to take it once"

BuprenorphineBrian said:
Potency and euphoria or “likability” are two different things. Stronger potency does not mean “better high”. Heroin is nowhere near as strong as FENT but it has a better high
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I have a theory that less potent opioids bind-unbind from the MOR at a much higher rate than the more potent opioids and it's that dynamic cycle that is responsible for 'euptoria'.

I note in China dihydroetorphine is used as an analgesic but is considered undesirable by Chinese dependent opioid users. So if you can produce a safe, orally active opioid of high potency, it MAY be less abusable. But then it's also going to result in the rapid internalization of receptors so effacay may drop off quicker. So while TH-030418 is both potent and has a very long duration of action (days), I do wonder if the Chinese approach is unsuited to the symptomatic treatment of chronic pain.

Hard to know as Chinese papers are often hard to locate and at least for me, a total pain to read.

Useful class of medicines but I say again - opioids can be a useful servent but make a terrible master.
 
BuprenorphineBrian said:
At this point at 43 I’m just grateful that I have daily access to Buprenorphine. I’m happy to stay on that for life. For some reason thebaine seem to work best for me?
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The story of how buprenorphine was testef IS objectively hilarious. But as early as 1973 the drug discovery team at Edinburgh University were suggesting that buprenorphine might be a useful tool in opioid detoxification.

I know the 'tea in the lab' story is funny, but it also shows that even in the hands of 'experts', highly potent opioids are dangerous. It MAY have been the tea incident that lead them to develop buprenorphine and diprenorphine.
 
They need to start combining opioids like the MoxDuo that almost came out in 2014. It was Morphine and Oxycodone but the highest dose was only 12mg Morphine and 8mg Oxycodone. They need to redo that with 24mg Morphine and 16mg Oxycodone IR.

A 8mg hydromorphone and 15mg Oxycodone would be good
 
Them Witches said:
They need to start combining opioids like the MoxDuo that almost came out in 2014. It was Morphine and Oxycodone but the highest dose was only 12mg Morphine and 8mg Oxycodone
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While it MAY have a place in medicine, fixed-combination compound medicines mean you can't titrate the two things seperately.

I'm uncertin why they thought their target demgraphic would be. I stongly suspect it's almost entirely a marketing department who worked out they could patent that compound medication and the goal was to steal market share for two off-patent medicines.

I'm seeing it more and more. I am told that doctors complain that patient non-complience is their BIGGEST issue but I suggest if a patent can't remember to take two pills, you won't halve the problem if it's only one pill.
 
Ismene2 said:
That's my experience of Heroin - this idea that the high is so great - is it bollocks. Any psychedelic pisses all over a Heroin high for euphoria and fun.
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Heroin isn't a drug for euphoria for someone that's having a great life. Heroin eliminates physical and psychological pain...and for those that have a rough time in life...it is more addicting and the most desired feeling, moreso than any euphoric mind expanding drug.

The heroin addict isn't chasing euphoria, the heroin addict is running from suffering.
 
I have run the beetle and snowballed horse only as many times as i have fingers, and no more. Laat time was 3-4 years ago, never since, but have woken up in morning after a good sleep and instantly i had a screaming desire telling me to smoke some horse, but after a miniute the screaming in my head/desire to do some wore off, thankfully as i didnt enjoy the high from H, but i realise how people who use regular cant put the foil or needle down with that screaming instant thought to use it, i hate the taste aswell so i assume im lucky, but crack i love once i heat the pipe up, im steamrolling, chain smoking, chasing the white dragon etc with bliss and igronance to my finances and lung health!
 
LucidSDreamr said:
Heroin isn't a drug for euphoria for someone that's having a great life. Heroin eliminates physical and psychological pain...and for those that have a rough time in life...it is more addicting and the most desired feeling, moreso than any euphoric mind expanding drug.

The heroin addict isn't chasing euphoria, the heroin addict is running from suffering.
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😶
 
4DQSAR said:
While it MAY have a place in medicine, fixed-combination compound medicines mean you can't titrate the two things seperately
Click to expand...
You can write a breakthru dose with the fixed-combination. MoxDuo was designed to address moderate to severe acute pain, especially in post-surgical settings or for individuals with significant pain from accidents. They were offering a IR, CR, and a IV version. Honestly, 12mg Morphine and 8mg Oxycodone PO would not be good for a tolerant patient.
 
LucidSDreamr said:
Heroin isn't a drug for euphoria for someone that's having a great life. Heroin eliminates physical and psychological pain...and for those that have a rough time in life...it is more addicting and the most desired feeling, moreso than any euphoric mind expanding drug.

The heroin addict isn't chasing euphoria, the heroin addict is running from suffering.
Click to expand...

I never got much pain relief from heroin - basically felt relaxed for a few hours. That's about it. I get a LOT more euphoria and pain relief from psychedelics.
 
4DQSAR said:
I have a theory that less potent opioids bind-unbind from the MOR at a much higher rate than the more potent opioids and it's that dynamic cycle that is responsible for 'euptoria'.

I note in China dihydroetorphine is used as an analgesic but is considered undesirable by Chinese dependent opioid users. So if you can produce a safe, orally active opioid of high potency, it MAY be less abusable. But then it's also going to result in the rapid internalization of receptors so effacay may drop off quicker. So while TH-030418 is both potent and has a very long duration of action (days), I do wonder if the Chinese approach is unsuited to the symptomatic treatment of chronic pain.

Hard to know as Chinese papers are often hard to locate and at least for me, a total pain to read.

Useful class of medicines but I say again - opioids can be a useful servent but make a terrible master.
Click to expand...
Very interesting theory it actualy makes a lot of sense when compairing my personal experiences with opiates and opioids from codeine, DHC, tramadol to Heroin oxycodone, hydrocodone, and hydromorphone.
When you look at the variable binding affinities you may conclude efficacy follows like a sliding scale with codeine>DHC>morphine>hyrdro/oxy-codone all the way up to carfentanil like agents. In reality, personally iv had the strongest and most consistent euphoric states from codeine, dipipanone (the N, Pipiridine analogue of methadone) and the M1 of tramadol desmethyltramadol (ODT).
ODT stands out to me particularly as a very euphoric agent but also had the property of inducing a relatively strong and abrupt feeling of withdrawals after just a short period of use (few days) and this was back when i didnt rattle from using opioids (glorious honeymoon phase)
 
Yeah - I lack data as it doesn't appear that anyone has researched this. Maybe a Chinese paper does? Because I know dihydroetorphine was (is?) used as an analgesiic but the few reports by dependent opioid users suggest it's not a desired compound.

I mean, if someone DOES have data then I would love to learn. As it stands, it's a hypothesis at best. I overstated it by using the term theory although I have SOME data that suggests that detail.
 
4DQSAR said:
Yeah - I lack data as it doesn't appear that anyone has researched this. Maybe a Chinese paper does? Because I know dihydroetorphine was (is?) used as an analgesiic but the few reports by dependent opioid users suggest it's not a desired compound.

I mean, if someone DOES have data then I would love to learn. As it stands, it's a hypothesis at best. I overstated it by using the term theory although I have SOME data that suggests that detail.
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fucking AI will probably render medicinal chemistry a trade of the past. Hypothesis it may be but i think there is a lot of valuable second hand data from people on this site that i would take over a Chinese paper any day (i cant afford the headache lol)
 
Well yeah - BL as a whole is of value as a data point.

In-silico predictions are getting quite good but you still need to run those trials because we don't fully understand the human body thus severe negative outcomes have occured and I don't think AI can eliminate that.

AI relies on data and sadly, until alltrials.net succeeds, most data is never published. ESPECIALLY the bad stuff.
 
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Ismene2 said:
I never got much pain relief from heroin - basically felt relaxed for a few hours. That's about it. I get a LOT more euphoria and pain relief from psychedelics.
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You’re certainly in the minority then. I’ve had chronic pain for a long time and psychs either amplify it or do nothing.

Mu agonist opioids, including heroin are the most powerful pain relievers known to medicine that still allow the patient to remain awake.
 
LucidSDreamr said:
You’re certainly in the minority then. I’ve had chronic pain for a long time and psychs either amplify it or do nothing.

Mu agonist opioids, including heroin are the most powerful pain relievers known to medicine that still allow the patient to remain awake.
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It was more psychological pain I was in rather than physical. Ive never got much from opiates so it might be me - I just find the high is underwhelming.
 
Of course it is glorious when fentanyl is packaged right or heroin is available to IV or sniff or whatever but the question is, "IS it too dangerous to be legal or should everyone have regular access to heroin?" I think it is a drug too good to do once. You never know how much you're gonna love it. I absolutely fell in love my first hit and my entire life spiraled for a long time due to those few times I smoked oxycodone or heroin with women damn those times were nuts.
 
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