Here's my cycle.

[AlmostFamous]

I have less than 2 weeks before I start.

Age: 25
Height 5'10"
Weight 195lb

1-10 50mg Test Prop ED
1-10 50mp Test Suspension ED
1-10 60mg NPP ED
7-10 50mg Winstrol ED
1-14 .5mg Arimidex EOD
11-14 Clomid

Letrozole on hand for gyno elimination.

Last cycle (2nd)
12 weeks 500mg Test E
6 weeks 50mg Dbol

Only concern is would 700mg a week of test prop/suspension be a tad much. And should I run the Arimidex into PCT or should I end it when I start PCT?

 

[maakshif]

i would end the adex before PCT...Aromasin is the only AI that should be used in PCT...adex can actually lower the effectiveness of SERMS, especially nolva, but it affects clomid as well

the thing with suspension is it's half-life is really short, less than 12 hours and more like 4-6...use it like an hour or so before your workout for a good boost and let the prop keep levels stable, other wise you should be fine

I'd extend the winstrol out, 4 weeks isn't really long enough for it...6-8 would be better

 

[AlmostFamous]

i would end the adex before PCT...Aromasin is the only AI that should be used in PCT...adex can actually lower the effectiveness of SERMS, especially nolva, but it affects clomid as well

the thing with suspension is it's half-life is really short, less than 12 hours and more like 4-6...use it like an hour or so before your workout for a good boost and let the prop keep levels stable, other wise you should be fine

I'd extend the winstrol out, 4 weeks isn't really long enough for it...6-8 would be better

I would rather use Aromasin, but from my sources, it's almost 4x the price of Arimidex. With that big of a price difference, it's not cost effective for me.

The suspension I'll be using is a TNE oil. So the oil should slow the absortion rate slightly. Even though, with all the research I did, you have to do 2x a day if you want the most effective results. And I don't want to go beyond once a day.

And I'll extend the Winstrol to week 4-10.

 

[maakshif]

I would rather use Aromasin, but from my sources, it's almost 4x the price of Arimidex. With that big of a price difference, it's not cost effective for me.

The suspension I'll be using is a TNE oil. So the oil should slow the absortion rate slightly. Even though, with all the research I did, you have to do 2x a day if you want the most effective results. And I don't want to go beyond once a day.

And I'll extend the Winstrol to week 4-10.

yeah that's that problem with Aromasin, it's expeeeeeennnnnsive. Let me know how that suspension feels. I haven't used an oil based one, but the water based hurts like a biatch and I don't get injection pain from very many compounds/oils.

You should enjoy that cycle! Good luck!

 

[K12]

i would start clomid right after your last dose of test. 300mg/day/5 days, then 100 mg ed after. also, you know your cortisol levels will be sky high post cycle, so you should add in some ghrh/ghrp peptides for pct to kick start gh and reduce cortisol. also, 700 mg/wk is not very much test. most newbies start out with at least a gram/wk.

 

[maakshif]

i would start clomid right after your last dose of test. 300mg/day/5 days, then 100 mg ed after. also, you know your cortisol levels will be sky high post cycle, so you should add in some ghrh/ghrp peptides for pct to kick start gh and reduce cortisol. also, 700 mg/wk is not very much test. most newbies start out with at least a gram/wk.

why would you use clomid at such a high dose, the body doesn't utilize anymore than 50 mg at a time. The rest is just pissed out and wasted.

Also, most "newbies" don't start out at anywhere near 1 gram/wk of test and if they do they were given some really horrible advice. Most guys start out at doses of 350-500 mg/wk and I know several that do 250 mg/wk with great results.

 

[K12]

why would you use clomid at such a high dose, the body doesn't utilize anymore than 50 mg at a time. The rest is just pissed out and wasted.

Also, most "newbies" don't start out at anywhere near 1 gram/wk of test and if they do they were given some really horrible advice. Most guys start out at doses of 350-500 mg/wk and I know several that do 250 mg/wk with great results.

done 6 cycles. 300mg/day clomid kick starts the nuts quickly, and far more effectively than a measly 50 mg dose. this has been my experience.

where does it say that you piss out 250 mg of clomid if you take a 300 mg dose after a cycle? i'm very interested to read this. source?

Most guys shooting test are looking to put on 20-25 lbs of muscle and keep about 10 after the bloat. That's why most guys start with about a gram. It is rare that someone starts w/ only 250 mg/wk of test. If it has an ester, let's estimate that it is approximately 210 mg/wk of test. The body produces about 100 mg/wk of test natually, so there really is not much gain off 250 mg/wk of injectible test when you factor in ester weight and hpta shutdown. So, shooting 250 mg/wk of test you are basically getting 210 mg a wk of test, which is just sheer stupidity. Only an idiot would use 250 mg/wk of test -- unless for HRT

 

[maakshif]

done 6 cycles. 300mg/day clomid kick starts the nuts quickly, and far more effectively than a measly 50 mg dose. this has been my experience.

where does it say that you piss out 250 mg of clomid if you take a 300 mg dose after a cycle? i'm very interested to read this. source?

Most guys shooting test are looking to put on 20-25 lbs of muscle and keep about 10 after the bloat. That's why most guys start with about a gram. It is rare that someone starts w/ only 250 mg/wk of test. If it has an ester, let's estimate that it is approximately 210 mg/wk of test. The body produces about 100 mg/wk of test natually, so there really is not much gain off 250 mg/wk of injectible test when you factor in ester weight and hpta shutdown. So, shooting 250 mg/wk of test you are basically getting 210 mg-100 mg = 110 mg/wk of test, which is just sheer stupidity. Only an idiot would use 250 mg/wk of test.

Most guys shooting test are looking to put on 20-25 lbs of muscle and keep about 10 after the bloat.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. So you are saying that you want to put on 20-25 lbs of muscle and then you are going to lose 10-15 lbs of muscle because of water weight. That doesn't make sense at all. Most guys are lucky to put on about 15-20 lbs during a cycle and about 7-10 lbs of that will be muscle. That is how the body works. It is physically impossible even with steroids, unless you are running ridiculous amounts, to put on 2+ lbs of muscle in a week. Guys running their first 2-3 cycles are going to be able to put much more muscle with lower doses than guys that have ran multiple cycles, but the amount they are able to put on depends on several factors including diet, genetic potential, training, etc. Also, putting on more than this to quickly is going to severely impact your joints.

I don't know many guys that have ran multiple cycles that even run 1 gram or more that aren't pro-bodybuilders, pro power-lifters, or have just surpassed their genetic limit or ran so many cycles that they don't respond to lower doses any longer...I've ran well over 10 cycles and I'm just now starting to use more than 1 gram of test and I've grown with every cycle...250 mg/ew of test for guys that have never ran a cycle before will still produce great gains...only an idiot would start off using a gram or more per week of test, or multiple compounds for that matter...that is just stupid and asking to fuck up your body in the long run and like I said they were given some very very horrible advice

Healthy males don't produce 100 mg/wk of test, it's more like 50-75 mg/wk in your 20's (roughly 7-10.5 mg/day)...Taking roughly 7x's (250 mg/wk) the amount of test in than your body normally produces will produce great gains for people that have never used exogenous hormones.

 

[VictorZ06]

Lots of bad/wrong info here....maakshif is doing a good job cleaning up. Right on bro. I wish I could tack on 25lbs. with a simple 10 week test cycle. I'd be lucky to get 4-5 lbs. of LBM at the end of the day....and I use over a gram of test along with several other compounds when running.

Good job maakshif.


/V

 

[K12]

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. So you are saying that you want to put on 20-25 lbs of muscle and then you are going to lose 10-15 lbs of muscle because of water weight. That doesn't make sense at all. Most guys are lucky to put on about 15-20 lbs during a cycle and about 7-10 lbs of that will be muscle. That is how the body works. It is physically impossible even with steroids, unless you are running ridiculous amounts, to put on 2+ lbs of muscle in a week. Guys running their first 2-3 cycles are going to be able to put much more muscle with lower doses than guys that have ran multiple cycles, but the amount they are able to put on depends on several factors including diet, genetic potential, training, etc. Also, putting on more than this to quickly is going to severely impact your joints.

I don't know many guys that have ran multiple cycles that even run 1 gram or more that aren't pro-bodybuilders, pro power-lifters, or have just surpassed their genetic limit or ran so many cycles that they don't respond to lower doses any longer...I've ran well over 10 cycles and I'm just now starting to use more than 1 gram of test and I've grown with every cycle...250 mg/ew of test for guys that have never ran a cycle before will still produce great gains...only an idiot would start off using a gram or more per week of test, or multiple compounds for that matter...that is just stupid and asking to fuck up your body in the long run and like I said they were given some very very horrible advice

Healthy males don't produce 100 mg/wk of test, it's more like 50-75 mg/wk in your 20's (roughly 7-10.5 mg/day)...Taking roughly 7x's (250 mg/wk) the amount of test in than your body normally produces will produce great gains for people that have never used exogenous hormones.

This is just ridiculous. Yes, I am saying that newbies gain around 20-25 lbs of muscle in approx. 10 weeks for a first cycle with about a gram/wk of test. This is just common knowledge. Then, water, which is what makes up roughly 90% of muscle, leaves the cells, causing a reduction of 10-15 lbs of weight (most of it extracellular fluid). I don't know why this is so hard to understand. This is just bb'ing 101.

Acc'd to medline the avg. male in his 20's produces 14 mg/day of test. Argue with them. 250 mg/wk of test - the ester weight ~ 210 mg. I don't know how you get 7X. I get 14 mg/day x 7 days/wk = 98 mg/wk of test that the avg. male produces naturally. However, this # is negated because of hpta shutdown when you inj. exogenous test. If you inject, 250 mg w/ ester you are only inj. 210 mg/wk of test. Then you factor in 98 mg/wk of test produced natually, which isn't anymore since you are inj. test. So you are basically doubling the amount of test in your body from 98 mg/wk to 210 mg/wk. Not worth all the trouble injecting, unless you are doing this for hormone replacemnt therapy, in which case 200- 250 mg/wk is the standard dose of test -- but not for a bodybuilder.

 

[maakshif]

This is just ridiculous. Yes, I am saying that newbies gain around 20-25 lbs of muscle in approx. 10 weeks for a first cycle with about a gram/wk of test. This is just common knowledge. Then, water, which is what makes up roughly 90% of muscle, leaves the cells, causing a reduction of 10-15 lbs of weight (most of it extracellular fluid). I don't know why this is so hard to understand. This is just bb'ing 101.

Acc'd to medline the avg. male in his 20's produces 14 mg/day of test. Argue with them. 250 mg/wk of test - the ester weight ~ 210 mg. I don't know how you get 7X. I get 14 mg/day x 7 days/wk = 98 mg/wk of test that the avg. male produces naturally. However, this # is negated because of hpta shutdown when you inj. exogenous test. If you inject, 250 mg w/ ester you are only inj. 210 mg/wk of test. Then you factor in 98 mg/wk of test produced natually, which isn't anymore since you are inj. test. So you are basically doubling the amount of test in your body from 98 mg/wk to 210 mg/wk. Not worth all the trouble injecting, unless you are doing this for hormone replacemnt therapy, in which case 200- 250 mg/wk is the standard dose of test -- but not for a bodybuilder.

The standard trt dose is around 125 mg/wk, but that depends on the individual. Also, trt doses are used to get the body up to well above normal levels. A dose of 250 mg/wk of test will garner around 1200+ ng/dl of testosterone in the bloodstream. The normal for a healthy male is between 300-600 ng/dl.

This is just ridiculous. Yes, I am saying that newbies gain around 20-25 lbs of muscle in approx. 10 weeks for a first cycle with about a gram/wk of test. This is just common knowledge. Then, water, which is what makes up roughly 90% of muscle, leaves the cells, causing a reduction of 10-15 lbs of weight (most of it extracellular fluid). I don't know why this is so hard to understand. This is just bb'ing 101.

So you are saying that both Victor and myself are both wrong? Guys that have been in this lifestyle for a long long time. I think you really need to do a lot of research, because I've been in this lifestyle for well over 10 years doing research every day (not sure about Victor, but I know it is much longer than myself) and you are nowhere near close with any of your information. You say this is bb'ing 101, but it seems to me that you need to retake that course, so I'll get you started with the below information.

To gain 2lbs a week of pure muscle even ON cycle is actually impossible as the body doesnt accumulate muscle that fast. It just cant. Now, if some factors came into play, it could be done, but for the average, even not close to their limit, it cant. Now, gaining 2 lbs a week natty, yes that can happen for a short time and if you gain fat in a similar manner, then you will not actually go up in fat %, but fat will have been gained along with a higher amount of nitrogen, glycogen and water. All of these will be part of that 2lbs

A normal level of test in a healthly male is around 50 and 75 per week.

Actually i read in one of my biology textbooks that a healthy male in his 20's produces 7 to 10 mg a day which equates to 49 to 70 mg per week

average male makes about 7mg/day. Roughly 50mg/week of natural testosterone production.

Most dr's that use hrt will put a patient on 100-150mg/wk

Notice the dosages in the following links for beginner steroid cycles. None of them say to use a gram per week.

Beginner Steroid Cycles1

Steroid.com Novice cycle 1

Steroid.com Novice Cycle 2

Steroid.com Novice Cycle 3

I want you to notice in these intermediate and advanced cycles recommendations that they still don't have more than 500 mg/wk of test.

Intermediate 1

Intermediate 2

Intermediate 3

Advanced 1

Need me to continue on, because I can absolutely keep spoon-feeding you correct information.

 

[HereIam]

I'm not taking sides here, but Victor is in a whole different world than most of us and expectations have to be adjusted for him

 

[K12]

The standard trt dose is around 125 mg/wk, but that depends on the individual. Also, trt doses are used to get the body up to well above normal levels. A dose of 250 mg/wk of test will garner around 1200+ ng/dl of testosterone in the bloodstream. The normal for a healthy male is between 300-600 ng/dl.



So you are saying that both Victor and myself are both wrong? Guys that have been in this lifestyle for a long long time. I think you really need to do a lot of research, because I've been in this lifestyle for well over 10 years doing research every day (not sure about Victor, but I know it is much longer than myself) and you are nowhere near close with any of your information. You say this is bb'ing 101, but it seems to me that you need to retake that course, so I'll get you started with the below information.











Notice the dosages in the following links for beginner steroid cycles. None of them say to use a gram per week.

Beginner Steroid Cycles1

Steroid.com Novice cycle 1

Steroid.com Novice Cycle 2

Steroid.com Novice Cycle 3

I want you to notice in these intermediate and advanced cycles recommendations that they still don't have more than 500 mg/wk of test.

Intermediate 1

Intermediate 2

Intermediate 3

Advanced 1

Need me to continue on, because I can absolutely keep spoon-feeding you correct information.

You gotta be trolling, lol. I actually looked at the links you posted and most of them suggest just under a gram of test a week - like 750 - 850 mg, which is ok.

As for gaining 2 lbs of muscle a week on roids, obviously you have never heard of drol (anadrol for bb'ing 101). The stuff, if you can hang with it, will put on 30 lbs in a month, 7 lbs per week or 1 pound per day.

Docs don't usually have a prob prescribing 200-250 mg/wk of test. For the 1,000th time, when injected, the body is not actually getting 200-250 mg/wk of test. You have to factor in the ester weight.

Uh, what a mess.... look in your little 1950's steroid encyclopedia and then see if they updated their info. If not, check Medline. The avg total test produced by males in their 20s' is 14 mg/day. Maybe some 20-something males produce only 7 mg/day... I'm talking avg #s here.

Please stick to substances like royal jelly, glutamine, and whey protein. You obviously need to read more up to date info about juice. No offense, unless you are just trollin around man - because this is ridiculous.

 

[maakshif]

Lots of bad/wrong info here....maakshif is doing a good job cleaning up. Right on bro. I wish I could tack on 25lbs. with a simple 10 week test cycle. I'd be lucky to get 4-5 lbs. of LBM at the end of the day....and I use over a gram of test along with several other compounds when running.

Good job maakshif.


/V

Thanks! Doing what I can to help, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in with this guy. I just hope people that are reading his posts are intelligent enough to realize his info isn't very good/accurate overall.

You gotta be trolling, lol. I actually looked at the links you posted and most of them suggest just under a gram of test a week - like 750 - 850 mg, which is ok.

As for gaining 2 lbs of muscle a week on roids, obviously you have never heard of drol (anadrol for bb'ing 101). The stuff, if you can hang with it, will put on 30 lbs in a month, 7 lbs per week or 1 pound per day.

Docs don't usually have a prob prescribing 200-250 mg/wk of test. For the 1,000th time, when injected, the body is not actually getting 200-250 mg/wk of test. You have to factor in the ester weight.

Uh, what a mess.... look in your little 1950's steroid encyclopedia and then see if they updated their info. If not, check Medline. The avg total test produced by males in their 20s' is 14 mg/day. Maybe some 20-something males produce only 7 mg/day... I'm talking avg #s here.

Please stick to substances like royal jelly, glutamine, and whey protein. You obviously need to read more up to date info about juice. No offense, unless you are just trollin around man - because this is ridiculous.

honestly you need to take your own advice and stick to those substances because you clearly have no clue how the body actually works and are on the path of royally fucking yourself up and anybody that takes your advice completely up.

you still are completely confusing bodyweight with lean body mass (muscle)....the human body is physically incapable of putting on more than about 1 lbs of muscle per week and that is on the extreme high side of things even when steroids are introduced. Also, I don't really care what medline or whatever site you claim says about the amount test that healthy male's produce, because it is incorrect. Try reading a biology or biochemistry book, do a google search, and look at all of the other websites that state what I said of 50-75 mg of test per week. Also, try looking into TRT/HRT and seeing what I told you about the dosages they prescribe. You'll find I'm right.

As for anadrol, much like dbol, much of the gains are from water weight, glycogen, nitrogen, and fat (depending on diet) not pure muscle. You need to go back and recheck those links because none of them recommended anywhere close to 750-800 mg/wk of test. Most of them were in the range of 350-600 mg/wk of test. Also, no beginner to steroids should use any compound other than Test for their first one or two cycles and should only introduce one new compound at a time so you can discern between the sides that are being caused if there are any. The only exception to this is possibly introducing an oral as a kick-start because sides from it will come on much much faster than sides from a longer ester like enanthate and it will be easy to discern between them. And I don't care how much AAS you take if your diet and training are not on point to make the AAS work for you, you will not gain anything but fat and water.

Get your facts straight, because they are no where close, before you accuse somebody of trolling, because you are the one that looks like the uneducated troll in this situation.

 

[K12]

Thanks! Doing what I can to help, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in with this guy. I just hope people that are reading his posts are intelligent enough to realize his info isn't very good/accurate overall.





honestly you need to take your own advice and stick to those substances because you clearly have no clue how the body actually works and are on the path of royally fucking yourself up and anybody that takes your advice completely up.

you still are completely confusing bodyweight with lean body mass (muscle)....the human body is physically incapable of putting on more than about 1 lbs of muscle per week and that is on the extreme high side of things even when steroids are introduced. Also, I don't really care what medline or whatever site you claim says about the amount test that healthy male's produce, because it is incorrect. Try reading a biology or biochemistry book, do a google search, and look at all of the other websites that state what I said of 50-75 mg of test per week. Also, try looking into TRT/HRT and seeing what I told you about the dosages they prescribe. You'll find I'm right.

As for anadrol, much like dbol, much of the gains are from water weight, glycogen, nitrogen, and fat (depending on diet) not pure muscle. You need to go back and recheck those links because none of them recommended anywhere close to 750-800 mg/wk of test. Most of them were in the range of 350-600 mg/wk of test. Also, no beginner to steroids should use any compound other than Test for their first one or two cycles and should only introduce one new compound at a time so you can discern between the sides that are being caused if there are any. The only exception to this is possibly introducing an oral as a kick-start because sides from it will come on much much faster than sides from a longer ester like enanthate and it will be easy to discern between them. And I don't care how much AAS you take if your diet and training are not on point to make the AAS work for you, you will not gain anything but fat and water.

Get your facts straight, because they are no where close, before you accuse somebody of trolling, because you are the one that looks like the uneducated troll in this situation.

please stop lowering the intelligence of those trying to educate themselves here, man. this is really not funny any more. you obviously don't have ten yrs experience with anything, except running long distances. for your info, lbm or lean body mass is almost entirely water! so the water weight from aas is lbm! 10 yrs experience w/ roids, yeah right man, stick to creatine. when you get jacked up on test, the water weight is considered lbm! it is not fat (adipose tissue).

you don't have a clue how much muscle tissue the human body is capable of gaining a wk.

docs will prescribe 200-250 mg/wk for hrt. the avg 20 something yr old male will produce ~ 14 mg/day of test.

as for drol, the water weight IS CONSIDERED LBM. it is not adipose (fat) tissue.

you think beginners should not use anything else besides test!?! what about nor-test (deca)!?! maybe the beginner does not want the sides test gives. unreal...

Yes, i agree that diet is crucial to gaining mass and strength while on aas.

 

[maakshif]

please stop lowering the intelligence of those trying to educate themselves here, man. this is really not funny any more. you obviously don't have ten yrs experience with anything, except running long distances. for your info, lbm or lean body mass is almost entirely water! so the water weight from aas is lbm! 10 yrs experience w/ roids, yeah right man, stick to creatine. when you get jacked up on test, the water weight is considered lbm! it is not fat (adipose tissue).

How old are you? I'm going to guess early 20's or possibly teens from the way you conduct yourself and the ignorance that you are showing, so of course you absolutely think that you are correct and there is no way possible that you could be wrong, but you are wrong with almost all of your information and that is a fact whether you want to accept it or not.

you don't have a clue how much muscle tissue the human body is capable of gaining a wk. it seems that you don't...I obtained my information from extremely credible sources, ie doctors, nutritionists, trainers, bodybuilders, powerlifters, and through the Biology and Chemistry Degree's that I received with a 3.9 GPA.

docs will prescribe 200-250 mg/wk for hrt. the avg 20 something yr old male will produce ~ 14 mg/day of test. this is not correct, but you are obviously too ignorant to realize it

as for drol, the water weight IS CONSIDERED LBM. it is not adipose (fat) tissue.

you think beginners should not use anything else besides test!?! what about nor-test (deca)!?! maybe the beginner does not want the sides test gives. unreal... beginniers SHOULD NOT use anything but Testosterone, not derivatives of testosterone or DHT (which includes every other Anabolic Androgenic Steroid that is not Testosterone)...you have to learn how your body responds to Testosterone alone before adding in other compounds as testosterone should be the base of any and all cycles

Yes, i agree that diet is crucial to gaining mass and strength while on aas.

comments in bold ^
you're are correct it isn't funny, just how ignorant you actually are

I'm done with this as you are just too dense obviously. Hopefully anybody that reads this thread will realize how much wrong information you have put out there and don't follow it and end up messing up their bodies.

AF, sorry that your thread has been sidetracked with all of this unnecessary non-sense.

 

[muel65]

Not jumping on maakshif's cock here but K12 some of the stuff you posted is shit mate.

docs will prescribe 200-250 mg/wk for hrt. the avg 20 something yr old male will produce ~ 14 mg/day of test.

The average body will not produce 14mg/day of testosterone, the average and much more likely figure is between 7.5-11mg. Docs will give you a shot of a blend like sustanon every 2/3 weeks for trt purposes.

K12 you seem to even confuse yourself between "muscle" and "weight".

you think beginners should not use anything else besides test!?! what about nor-test (deca)!?! maybe the beginner does not want the sides test gives. unreal...

Like everyone has said, for your first cycle stick to test. What's the point in adding in other compounds? If any problems arise how do you know which one is causing them?

I'm sure a beginner would love the sides of using deca without test.

 

[K12]

comments in bold ^
you're are correct it isn't funny, just how ignorant you actually are

I'm done with this as you are just too dense obviously. Hopefully anybody that reads this thread will realize how much wrong information you have put out there and don't follow it and end up messing up their bodies.

AF, sorry that your thread has been sidetracked with all of this unnecessary non-sense.

comments in bold ^
you're are correct it isn't funny, just how ignorant you actually are

I'm done with this as you are just too dense obviously. Hopefully anybody that reads this thread will realize how much wrong information you have put out there and don't follow it and end up messing up their bodies.

AF, sorry that your thread has been sidetracked with all of this unnecessary non-sense.

a 3.9 G.P.A.- I laughed so hard I spit my protein shake on my monitor, lol. That was a good one.

Water is included in LBM, as it is not adipose tissue. This is by definition. Not sure why are you arguing this so persitently.

FYI, Take all the water from muscle tissue and you would lose more than 10-15 lbs. 90% of muscle tissue is water. You would lose most of your bodyweight.

I don't know where you get off dictating that a newbie should only use test and not deca as one could reduce the dose of test and add deca and get less "androgenic" sides than test.

Sure there are docs, bodybuilders, powerlifters, nutritionists, trainers, everyone around you with expert information informing you.

Seriously, based on your information and posts you do not have much fact-based knowledge and I know you have no "real-life" bodybuilding knowledge. You are way off base and have a lot to learn. I know my stats are far superior to yours. You are just some teenage kid that is into track at highschool or something like that. You don't fool me.

 

[maakshif]

a 3.9 G.P.A.- I laughed so hard I spit my protein shake on my monitor, lol. That was a good one.

Water is included in LBM, as it is not adipose tissue. This is by definition. Not sure why are you arguing this so persitently.

FYI, Take all the water from muscle tissue and you would lose more than 10-15 lbs. 90% of muscle tissue is water. You would lose most of your bodyweight.

I don't know where you get off dictating that a newbie should only use test and not deca as one could reduce the dose of test and add deca and get less "androgenic" sides than test.

Sure there are docs, bodybuilders, powerlifters, nutritionists, trainers, everyone around you with expert information informing you.

Seriously, based on your information and posts you do not have much fact-based knowledge and I know you have no "real-life" bodybuilding knowledge. You are way off base and have a lot to learn. I know my stats are far superior to yours. You are just some teenage kid that is into track at highschool or something like that. You don't fool me.

Interesting that you know so much about me and never met me, but yet you are so far off that it isn't even funny, it's quite sad you and honestly I feel slightly ashamed for even getting into an 'internet argument' with such an ignorant child. Considering I'm 28, 5'7" 225 lbs @ 8% bf (I get it measured hydrostatically twice per month so that is accurate), a former Marine, and graduated from a highly respected university with the GPA and degrees that I mentioned above, and married with kids, I'm pretty far from "some teenage kid that is into track at highschool" and that description probably fits you a lot more closely. I guarantee you I have way more cycle experience considering you've done 6 cycles (so you say) and I've got well over 10 and I was researching for years before I started cycling.

The majority of your information is completely inaccurate and dangerous. You are absolutely ignorant when it comes to bodybuilding and AAS from the looks of it and you are just absolutely too stubborn to learn and research accurate information. Victor, the mod here who has a hell of a lot more experience than either of us, even said that you had a lot of misinformation and I was cleaning it up nicely. Why don't you go argue with him and see where that gets you. Maybe he can straighten out your ignorance, though I doubt it. There was even another member who told you that your information was incorrect. Hmm, seems to me the constant here is that your information is incorrect.

BTW, Water retention (bloat) that is accumulated from Anadrol, Dbol, and estrogen is not considered LBM, it is considered excess water and is held in and around your fat cells and it adds to your total bodyweight which is why anadrol and dbol cause so much weight gain that is lost once you stop taking them. Also, the water that makes up muscles isn't considered because that water is needed for the muscle to survive and stay full and is part of the muscles weight. When you lose weight coming off of a cycle you typically are losing fat and excess water in addition to nitrogen and glycogen. If you lose too much water from your muscles then your going to lose muscle tissue because it can't survive without sufficient water.

As for taking deca as a beginner. Do you know the difference between estrogen, progesterone, and prolactin and what each of their side effects are? Do you know how to combat each one of them? Do you know which side effects that Deca causes and which of those hormones that it affects? Testosterone, not any of its derivatives, which deca is a derivative of testosterone, should be the base of every cycle, therefore one should always start their cycling experience with testosterone only to learn how it affects their body and what sides they should look for. After learning that adding in one compound, in addition to the testosterone, at a time is the way cycling should be done in order to learn how that compound affects them. This makes it so that the sides from from each one can be discerned between and dealt with appropriately.

Hopefully Victor will pop in and straighten this out. Get your facts straight before attacking somebody that you don't know over the Internet like some retarded guru that you think you are. I'm confident in and stand firmly by the information I provided and it is up to the people who read it as to whether they choose to listen or not. It's funny that you say that none of my information is fact based, yet I provided you quotes and links showing you everything I was saying and a quick Google search for everything I've said will back it up even further. Continue believing whatever you will, at this point I don't really care if you go and screw your body up as you're well on your way, but you will just become another statistic and that, imo, is sad. I just hope that others reading this don't go the same route as you and can discern between accurate information and the BS information.

Good Luck with whatever happens with you.

 

[VictorZ06]

Some very excellent points made here guys, it looks like we have a lot of old school knowledge blended with some more current science.

I was having fun watching some spirited debates here (it's been a while), but we should set the record straight on a few points here. First being LBM (Lean Body Mass). Some notes...

LBM, lean body mass is simply an estimation of how much you weigh without the body fat - how much your bones, organs and muscles weigh. As the other factors are assumed to be relatively static, by monitoring your LBM you can get a fairly accurate estimate of the amount of muscle you are gaining or losing.

It is a critical number to know whether you are trying to lose or gain weight. It is a much more important than your bodyweight. People with the same bodyweights but different LBMs can look radically different. Your goals are not to lose muscle and gain fat, they are to lose fat and gain muscle. Your LBM can give you an accurate picture of where your training is taking you.

LBM is fairly easy to calculate once you have weighed yourself and figured your body fat percentage. You just calculate your body fat in pounds and subtract that from your bodyweight.

Body Fat in lbs. = (Total Bodyweight) (Body Fat Percentage (in decimal form))
Lean Body Mass = Total Bodyweight - Body Fat in lbs.

So someone who weighs 173 pounds with a body fat percentage of 17.5% would calculate as follows:

(173)(.175) = 30.3 lbs. of body fat

173 - 30.3 = 142.7 LBM

The accuracy of your LBM number is dependant on the accuracy of your inputs - your weight and your body fat percentage. As body fat percentages can be all over the map based on the methods used, your LBM as an accurate gauge of your fitness level should be taken with a grain of salt. Use the mirror to make any major judgements about your body, use lean body mass as a progress report for your training program.

Muscle Weight Vs. Fat Weight

Yes, there is a difference. You have probably heard the saying, "Muscle weighs more than fat." This is true. While a pound of muscle weighs the same as a pound of fat, the volume is different. Muscle is denser than fat. A pound of fat will take up about 18% more space then a pound of muscle. If squeezed into cans, you would need a can 18% bigger to contain the pound of fat.

In addition to volume differences, keep in mind that muscle wraps tightly to the skeletol structure whereas fat hangs loosely. So, all total, you can find two people of the same build and height who weigh the same appearing vastly different based on their lean body mass (LBM).

If your goals are to improve your physical appearance, you should concern yourself more with where your LBM is rather than your bodyweight. The importance of knowing your LBM? What if your trip to the scales showed no bodyweight gain in two weeks time? Is it then time to make some big adjustments to your program? Maybe, maybe not.

Your lean body mass number could show that you actually gained muscle (and, necessarily, lost some body fat) which means your program is doing well and you probably wouldn't want to change a thing. And, of course, if your bodyweight is moving skyward, you should temper your enthusiasm until you get an accurate estimate of your lean body mass. It may just be body fat you are gaining.

How much body fat gain is acceptable? On a mass gain program, it isn't realistic for most people to expect to gain all muscle and no fat. At the most, you want to be gaining at a 1:1 ratio of muscle to fat (1 lb. of muscle for every one pound of fat). Most beginner and intermediate level trainers should be able to do better, gaining at a 2:1 ratio or better (2 lbs. of muscle for every one lb. of fat).

We also have a few different opinions here on what should be run with a first cycle. I'm a firm believer that first cycles should be run with test and test alone (along side and AI, HCG, and clomid for PCT). I've always considered test as being the base foundation of every cycle. I personally don't see anything wrong with throwing some dbol or some anadrol up front to help get things going. I can put on a good 15 lbs. using anadrol and test alone....but at the end of the day, I'm not keeping 15 lbs. of muscle. There are methods that one can use with proper diet and training to keep a good percentage of those gains....but it depends on where your are on meeting your genetic potential. Someone who ran a dozen cycles is not going to put on the same kind of weight or drastic gains as the person that is running his first test only cycle. IMHO.



/V