Opioids Help/Questions with Methadone Detox:

[TheCthulhu]

Hi all - any help you can give me would be much appreciated. I recently stopped using Methadone cold turkey off a dose of 70 Mg/day (for 2 years). I have been using Tramadol and Xanax to deal with the withdrawals. I'm starting to feel better when taking Tramadol 2-3 times a day now, have minimal withdrawal symptoms now, and am 23 days clean from Methadone. I now want to discontinue my Tramadol use in the next couple of days and have a few questions......

1) Have I waited long enough off the Methadone to now detox from the Trams?

2) I've been taking .5 Mg Xanax once, at night to sleep. I have also been taking the Xanax for 2 days, then switching to Seroquel for 2 days, and repeat. I'm wondering - since detoxing off Tramadol will take larger amounts of Xanax, I don't want to become dependent on it. I hate the stuff, so psychological addiction is not an issue - just physical dependency. Will I be safe doping up on Xanax for 5-7 days to get off the Trams?

3) I called in a Vicodin script and plan to do a taper with it to minimize the nasty Tramadol withdrawals. I plan to do the following:

Day 1 - Four 7.5 Mg Vicodin twice a day.
Day 2 - Three 7.5 Mg Vicodin twice a day.
Day 3 - Two 7.5 Mg Vicodin twice a day.
Day 4 - One 7.5 Mg Vicodin twice a day.
Day 5 - Nothing but perhaps Xanax.

How does this sound? Will it be beneficial? Ease the withdrawals? Any advice or changes to the plan would be much appreciated.

I'm normally very active - I run 5 miles a day and lift weights M-F for 1-2 hours a day. I've been out of the gym for the last 23 days now due to withdrawals and want to get back! I figured being in good shape would make things easier but this has been one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life!

Thanks for reading - I'm ready to be clean - want it SO BADLY. Any advice you can give me would be a great help!

 

[amapola]

Forget the Vicodin completely. Hydrocodone is much stronger than tramadol and you would be taking a step back deeper into addiction. Just perform a quick taper of tramadol and get off opiates completely. The SNRI effects won't be that bad at all since you've only been on tramadol a few weeks and will be helped by benzos.

Once you are completely clean of opiates then you can look at tapering off the benzos. One month of daily use is not that bad at all and is really what they are for (as opposed to extended indefinite treatment).

 

[TheCthulhu]

See I think Tramadol is much stronger the Vicodin and the withdrawals are worse for me. When stopping Methadone I tried Vicodin but it would take 4-5 pills to get me feeling tolerable but would only last for about 2 hours where Tramadol would take the same amount but would last around 8 hours. Also, when I used to use Tramadol regularly years ago, taking Vicodin would do nothing for pain, high, or withdrawals. With the Serotonin effect of Tramadol the withdrawals are pretty nasty, thus my idea about the Vicodin taper to try and avoid them a bit.

 

[Oxide]

Amapola is right, vicodin will just be a step backwards. Tramadol can be rough to come off of, but compared to methadone its a cakewalk. Instead of using vicodin to taper with just start tapering off of Tramadol, and when you get to one pill, switch to the xanax. You should have no problem using xanax for that amount of time, the physical dependance takes a little longer than that to really take hold, in a lot higher doses too. Just trying to ease your mind.

You should be alright, keep it up, and congratulations.

EDIT: just read your second post. you can totally do the vicodin taper like you planned, but you still may experience some mental woes from the tramadol. This is where the xanax should work its magic.

 

[TheCthulhu]

Thank you SO much both of you for your input - it is GREATLY appreciated. What about the issue of time after the Methadone. I want to be through the worst of the Deathadone withdrawals before stopping Tramadol. Do you think 24 days will have been enough?

If I proceed with the Vicodin taper, do you think the 5-day plan I outlined is short/long enough? I just get really bad additional symptoms when stopping the Tram like buzzing in my head, eye pain, vertigo, and worse restless legs than with other short-acting opiates, so my plan was to try and minimize this with the Vicodin taper.

As far as the Xanax, yeah, I tried to keep the dose as long as possible and not use it every day to keep from becoming dependent. I was a bit worried about upping the dose for the Tramadol withdrawals though. That eases my mind a lot.

Let me know what you think, and thanks again.

 

[amapola]

What about the issue of time after the Methadone. I want to be through the worst of the Deathadone withdrawals before stopping Tramadol. Do you think 24 days will have been enough?

I think so. Either way you want to get off the tramadol asap if you are sensitive to its effects. I don't know how much the hydrocodone will help with the NRI stuff (bad stuff you mentioned) but as it is an overall painkiller it should help some. Maybe just try the straight tramadol taper and then take Vicoden if it is needed.

 

[aleyna]

i would stop taking the tramadol asap. taking vicodin again would be a step back. after about a month of being off the done you should start feeling normal again, though some less acute symptoms my present such as lethargy, anxiety, cravings... i think the weird effects you are getting from tramadol have more to do with the fact that it affects your serotonin levels as well... just my two cents. i did a cold turkey methadone kick myself. just use the bare minimum of benzos you need to get by on and of course i'm sure you know all about the tummy meds. even therapeutic doses of DXM can help (no more than say 60mgs though or you may start to feel funny). anyway, valerian is another good relaxant and see if you can get a script for some robaxin or soma. those will help quite a bit. if you have any other questions i'd be happy to help. just PM me and i will let you know how i got thru the methadone withdrawals. just stay away from the vics please!

 

[TheCthulhu]

Thanks for the advice, but it won't let me PM anyone yet. I just wrote you a long PM, so I'll post it here anyway, LoL!

Hi aleyna and thanks for the advice.

I've been, as I said, taking .5 Mg Xanax only at night and switching back and forth from Xanax to Seroquel every 2 days to avoid dependency issues. I've now been off the Xanax for 3 days in preparation for the Tramadol detox. Might not take it tonight either.

I have a really tough time with Tramadol withdrawals, which was why I thought about using Vics. For me Tramadol is the stronger drug - both as far as high/painkilling effect and duration. But yes, the difficulty isn't with the opiate aspect of Tramadol withdrawals but with the Serotonin aspect, which causes bad vertigo, buzzing in my head, eye pain, etc that normal opiates do not. Even a Tramadol dependency is a wonderul blessing compared to Methadone, so don't get me wrong - I'm not sorry I kicked Methadone with the Trams.

Methadone was a monster for me. I never would have made it without the Tramadol. I tried quitting completely cold turkey several times before and failed miserably. The last two times I had seizures that sent me back, scared, to Methadone. One happened after 10 days clean and the other happened the last time I tried a couple months back after 14 days clean - cracked my head open. I though the Methadone detox would be quicker than most since I'm so fit and have under 10% bodyfat, but it just kept getting worse and worse - even at the 2 week mark - that was the worst day yet!

Anyhow, I'd love to get some further advice from you and perhaps chat a bit throughout the process if not too much of a bother. I'm all alone in the house, so get bored easily sitting here for the better part of a month alone, LoL!

About the DXM.......where to people come by that stuff? I know it's in some cough syrups and such but have never seen anyone get ahold of it. Is it available online, or do you just get cough syrup at the store? Forgive me, I'm ignorant on the subject but wouldn't mind trying anything that would help.

I know of the Thomas recipe and follow it, but have never seen much difference when using it compared to when not. The vitamins, etc didn't seem to make any difference one way or the other........I still use them though, of course. The benzos are really the only thing that helps at all. I wish I could get ahold of Valium instead of Xanax - it works MUCH better for me......no one has anything but Xanax these days though.

I asked a couple of doctors for Clonidine, Lyrica, Soma......etc. Not for all at the same time, but inquiring innocently if they might help - you know? None of them would prescribe me anything but Tramadol, Vicodin, or Oxy. Go figure. My habit has been nurtured my the dang doctors the entire time. And now they won't give me anything to help detox other than more opiates. Clonidine is ONLY a heart medication, they say. I would be irresponsible to prescribe it to you for off-book use.

It all started when I had a sports injury that should have required surgery but I had no insurance at the time, so first they put me on Vicodin and kept upping my dose. When I realized what it was doing to me, I quit cold turkey. Then came the "miracle drug" Tramadol. Not addictive or habit forming, they told me. Yeah right. They used to give me grocery bags full of free Tramadol samples. Once I noticed I was right back in the same situation it was too late. At that point I had another issue (since resolved) at which point they suggested I switch to Methadone for the pain. They got me up to a 50-60 Mg dose, then when my doctor retired the new one cut me off completely with no notice and suggested I go to a clinic. Worst experience ever. Had I known then how difficult Methadone was to get off I never would have touched it. The clinic proceeded to blind-dose me, but by the time I left they had upped me to 120 Mg without my knowledge! I'm just glad to be off the garbage now - as I said, the Trams are a blessing in themselves. But I want to be clean off everything and I want it BAD - more than I've ever wanted anything in my life.

I won't talk your ear off any longer - but any further help you can offer would me much appreciated. Thanks so much for caring enough to respond!

 

[TheCthulhu]

So I looked into DXM and found some products that contain it. I've researched around a bit, and many people say to be effective you need to take doses of 200-500 Mg for withdrawals, which seems scary to me! I can't imagine what a dose that large would do! I'd be tripping my begeezus off! So you say a dose of around 60 Mg would be sufficient for the withdrawal effects? What about the issue of the DXM Bromide vs. the other kind (name slips my mind)? I've heard the Bromide makes you ill. Any further thoughts? Started my Tram taper last night and was REALLY feeling it this AM. Any further help would be wonderful and much appreciated. Thanks all!

 

[TheCthulhu]

Tries discontinuing the Tramadol altogether today and trying the DXM - bought the DXM Polystyrene variety. Took 120 Mg to start - nothing. Took another 60 and hour later - nothing. Took another 45 Mg an hour later - nothing. Was in some of the worst withdrawals of my life. Finally caved and took a couple of Vicodin after rolling around on the floor in agony until 2 AM. Am I not taking enough? Any ideas? Didn't feel a thing from it.

 

[TDotts26]

First let me say congrats on making the decision to end opiate use. I myself take methadone 1 10mg 4xper day + 4x vi Odin per day as needed. I can honestly tell you from experience thAt using a short acting opiod to withdrawal from a long acting is mostly a bad idea. Our brainwaves become erratic by the massive ups and downs of short acting opiates. If you were addicted to vi Odin and used small daily doses of methadone to wd then that would most likely work. Hence the almost universal use of 3 to 5 day methadone detox's. just last month my methadone medication was stolen. I sometimes don't take my vicodin so I had well over 100 10mg vics to last me 13 days till refill. Let me say I got to the pharmacy in cold sweats with loose bowels feeling like twice run over roadkill. I implore you to seek professional help instead of using vicodin to wd from methadone. Methadone is very difficult to detox from as you know and for long term users like us it is especially so. Withdrawals can last more than 2 months due to the insanely long half-life of the drug. I have never used trams for methadone wd but if that works for you stick to it until you find a good detox doc or finish, but definitely stay away from vicodin every time you take it your losing Days worth of progress.

 

[TheCthulhu]

26 days clean from Methadone now. Thank you for the thoughts TDotts26.

I DID try to detox off the Methadone cold turkey several times. The last time I made it 14 days. At that point I had not slept in 5 days and ended up having a seizure, cracking my head open on the kitchen counter, and putting a hold in the wall. We were so concerned for my health I went back on the Done.

I used to take Tramadol and had detoxed from it before - and I knew from back then it was stronger and longer-lasting than Vicodin, for me at least. So this time I had the idea to use Tramadol to get off the Methadone. It worked pretty well, making the withdrawals bearable. I am just starting to feel somewhat normal again 26 days in, but the Trams took just enough of the symptoms away to make it bearable. I think my brain has pretty well adjusted to the Trams now, so I have been thinking it is time to detox off them now so I don't stay on them too long.

My idea regarding the Vicodin is that it is far weaker for me than the Trams, and I get additional symptoms from the Tram withdrawal due to the Serotonin effects it has. So I thought if I used the Vicodin for a few days to avoid the worst of the additional Tramadol symptoms, it would make things easier. Not the case, I found out.

Tried the Vicodin - it is so weak it only makes a dent in the Tramadol withdrawals for a couple of hours, and even then they peek through. After 2 days off the Tram I caved last night and took some. I was not in a good state of mind. I think I'm just beaten down. I have been suffering through a month of Methadone withdrawals, and now so soon after to start all over again with the Tram detox - I just couldn't handle it. All I could think about was wishing I was dead. I think I'm going to wait until I've gotten back into the gym and functioning better, then taper off the trams 1/4 to 1/2 pill at a time. I think I need some "normal" time before this new undertaking. Heck, even a Tramadol dependency is a blessing compared to Methadone. I'm currently taking 3 Trams 2-3 times a day as needed, and just starting to be able to function again.

My clinic was charging me in excess of $400 a week for the Deathadone. The Trams are dirt cheap, not scheduled in my state, and easily available. I'm disappointed, however, since I just want to be off of everything. I'm normally a cold turkey, get it over with person, but I'm just so tired and beaten down after a month of the Methadone withdrawals I don't know if I can do this back-to-back. Any thoughts?

 

[TheCthulhu]

Oh, as far as professional help, I cannot find any in my area. The cheapest detox is around $8000, which I do not have. There are a couple free ones, but they have a nearly 2 year waiting list and even then all they do is throw you in a bed next to a bunch of other people and let you suffer. Home sounds better to me.

 

[amapola]

Regarding DXM, it's generally considered better for keeping your tolerance down than helping with withdrawal symptoms (though some people swear by it). If you're looking for an over the counter easement you have a better chance with loperamide which is at least known for mu activity.

 

[TheCthulhu]

Yeah, I took a pretty massive dose and didn't feel a thing from it. What do you think about tapering off the Tram and/or lengthening the timeline? Am I just being a wuss? I feel like a failure but am just so mentally exhausted.

 

[TheCthulhu]

Got out for the first time today and went to the beach. Something that is really bothering me is that since stopping Satan's Little Helper (Methadone), I cannot feel anything. No emotions. I cannot get happy, cannot get sad, cannot get excited. It is so annoying. I think about doing something I would normally find fun or exciting and........nothing. I don't even feel like doing it because even fun stuff just sounds like a chore. It's driving me crazy! I forced myself out today, went to the beach, but felt nothing. It was a beautiful day and I just felt dead inside. Not depressed really......but........just nothing. Any thoughts?

 

[TheCthulhu]

Another day clean - down to 4-6 Trams a day. Going to cut my dose again on Monday. Wish me luck......

 

[Secobarbital]

You will do ok man, just stick with it. It is just awesome how opiate addiction takes all the color out of life. Stick with it bro, I'm on your side, and the rest of this site is too.

 

[onthenodintulsa]

I recently kicked methadone and can relate to nothing being pleasurable. I was on 150mg a day and tapered down over a month or so. Jan 31st was my last day to take any. I took pretty low doses of xanax at night and occasionally some during the day, esp at the beginning. I felt like complete shit for a little over a month and a half but it has only been in the past month that I have gotten pleasure from anything and have started feeling closer to whatever normal is. Just hang in there, it will pass, it sucks, but you'll be through it soon. For me, heroin withdrawal was way more intense with regards to nausea and stuff but I'd take it any day over kicking methadone.

 

[TheCthulhu]

Anyone have any advice on how often to cut my Tramadol dose? Was thinking every 5 days or so, but any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks all!