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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Help... are suboxone and kpins a good withdrawal kit?

I

ineedadvice15

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Joined
Nov 19, 2014
Messages
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Hello, I am new to this site as well as this life-style. I have a question about suboxone 8mg/2mg and 2mg clonazepam. My husband is a recovering heroin addict/junkie. He used for 15 years of his life, and was sober for two years when we met, relapsed and went to rehab for 30 days... recently (about 13 months after rehab) he told me he started using percocets (he used 9 pills total) and methodone (2 pills total). He said this was enough to start a small habit and said he needed suboxone to completely kick it and stop the withdrawal and kpins to ease the anxiety and to sleep, etc. So, we are on day 4 of this so-called withdrawal kit stuff... the first day he took an 8mg/2mg suboxone film and two 2mg kpins and was dozing off and still looking high. He took the same thing the second day. The third day he took half a suboxone film strip and no kpins to my knowledge because we didnt have any, but smoked some weed at night to help him sleep. He said his withdrawal was bad that day though and said he needed more kpins. Today (the 4th day), he took what was supposed to be his last half of suboxone film (4mg/1mg) and went and got two more 2mg kpins. He said he would take one kpin today, and one tomorrow. Now he is saying he should get another suboxone and take a quarter of it for the next two days. I am worried because i dont know anything about this life and I'm afraid he is taking advantage of the fact that I don't know.... and might continue to add extra days to continue feeling high. I believe he wants to get better, but I know from his last relapse that when he is high he will lie over and over and over again.

So please give me some information about what you all think is going on here. Do you think he used more than the percs and methadone that he is telling me about? Do you think he's using the suboxone to continue to get the high feeling? Does he really need kpins for anxiety? Is the dosage right? Does it sound like he's taking advantage of me to any of you? Just any and all information will be helpful!!

Thank you,
Ineedadvice
 
First of all, there is something you should know about the way the brain works after so many years of addiction. Drug addiction actually changes the way the limbic system works. So while normally what he did wouldn't give someone with no experience withdrawal symptoms, it could theoretically give someone with a history of opiate addiction withdrawal symptoms.
THAT SAID.... I am a little confused about the dosages of suboxone you're talking about (did he do 8mg or 2 mg?) but if he was doing 8mg, that's way too much for the little amount of opiates he used. In my opinion, he should have had it kicked within the first few days if he was really trying and he could have gone down on the suboxone pretty quickly. I don't think his withdrawals should have been that bad, but everyone is different. If he was nodding, it sounds like he was probably taking advantage of the suboxone.
If it was me, I'd give him another 2mg and tell him he can either take it in one day or do 1mg/day for two days, and that's all he gets. And it might suck for a couple days, but it really shouldn't be that bad. I'm not sure what your relationship is like, but yes, addicts are incredibly skilled liars and he could be playing you really easily.
That said, I'm glad you came to ask for help with this. You obviously know your way around the addict lifestyle a little bit if you know enough to not believe everything he's telling you.
 
Thank you wezface for the information. The dose of suboxone was 8mg. I put 8mg/2mg because that's what is on the package... the 2mg of nalo...(something). And normally our relaionship is very open and honest and I started getting suspicious because he was hiding things he normally wouldn't hide. He even starts to look different... and I forgot to mention that every night when i wake up, I catch him nodding again. I know he can't be back on heroin because I've seen him put the suboxone under his tongue and that would throw him into immediate and violent withdrawal, right? So, i thought he might be taking something at night when I'm sleeping that's causing him to nod off, etc. Here's another question... would the 4mg of suboxone he took at 8 am cause him to nod off again at 4am or 5am the next morning, or is he most likely taking something while i'm sleeping?
and the only thing i know about the addict lifestyle is what he taught me the first time he relapsed, and what i've been reading online... that was my first experience with it, this is my second. :-/ That's why i need help! Thanks again wezface!
 
Suboxone lasts for about 24 hours, but it wouldn't cause him to still be nodding after that long I don't think, though with the kpins I suppose it's possible (and again, that's a pretty high dose). You're talking about 2mg naloxone, which is the agent that would make him get sick if he took anything too soon before taking the suboxone, or it would negate the effects if he took it after taking the suboxone, so there's no point.

If he's acting suspicious, he's probably hiding something or feeling guilty because he knows he's abusing the suboxone. Like I said, that's way too high of a dose for what he did. I think he's either gotten more suboxone or has somehow found a way around it... are you watching him after he takes it to make sure he doesn't take it out of his mouth right away?
 
Oh, right, the kpins. Um, well, there is a pretty big negative interaction potential with opiates like buprenorphine (subxone) and klonopins. And this is likely the reason he's nodding so hard. They might help him sleep if he was actually having withdrawal symptoms but it sounds like he's taking so much suboxone that no, he probably doesn't need them. also 2mg is quite a bit, especially to be mixing with an opiate.

Get him off the klonopins and if you're going to continue with the suboxone watch him for at least ten minutes to make sure he's not taking it out of his mouth. I'm really sorry you have to do this, and feel like you can't trust him. Just... when you get frustrated, keep in mind that addiction is a disease and there is actually stuff going on in his brain to make him act like this. It's not to say he can't overcome it, but just that it's not entirely a conscious choice. There are electrochemical impulses actually driving him to get high.
 
We don't know for sure, but, it's quite unlikely IMO to have withdrawal symptoms solely from 9 perks and 2 methadone, especially enough WD to warrant a sub taper . And DEFINITELY not enough for 8mg subs.
I would guess he's either lying about the amount of perks/methadone OR the need for Subs. My guess is he was lying about the perks/methadone and then took more subs than he needed for the taper (causing a nod)
To answer your benzo question, if a person is in active WD then yes, benzos are great at bedtime bc you get restless legs and insomnia and the benzos will help that. I thought though that if a person was on subs, WD symptoms would be negligible , this not needing the benzos. I've never taken subs though so I'll let someone else chime in, but you're in the right place.
 
I have taken subs and found benzos completely unnecessary if I had enough sub to keep me from feeling withdrawal symptoms.
 
wezface said:
I have taken subs and found benzos completely unnecessary if I had enough sub to keep me from feeling withdrawal symptoms.
Click to expand...
Yup that's what I figured. But how the guy got enough of a "habit" to need 8mg suboxone per dose just from doing nine perks?! I have a feeling someone's being snowed.
 
Thank you Bliss26!! Im not sure what IMO means, but by the context i know you mean my husband. He says he was in active WD but would take the suboxone and kpin in the day time, and smoke weed at night to sleep. And i thought the same thing, that the suboxone would get rid of the WD, which would mean he wouldn't need the benzo or the weed...right? I'm so confused by all of this. and he's telling me one thing and i'm reading other things... so i finally decided to find a site to join where actual people could help me. i really appreciate the help everyone. I will be coming here with questions from now on since, i still can't believe what my husband says yet. :-( thanks again.
 
Bliss26 said:
Yup that's what I figured. But how the guy got enough of a "habit" to need 8mg suboxone per dose just from doing nine perks?! I have a feeling someone's being snowed.
Click to expand...

Ok, enough sub to prevent WD symptoms, but too much just gets you high??
and i'm definitely being taken advantage of here... smh! but i feel better since i have a forum to ask questions on.
Thanks!!
 
I just told him what i learned today from you two, Bliss and Wez... and needless to say, he's pissed that i wont just trust him and how could i say he's taking advantage of me... smh. and still trying to prove why he needed 8mg suboxone AND 2mg of kpin. He was probably taking more than just what he told me... because he's lying not like in his first relapse, but close enough for me.
 
Bliss26 said:
Yup that's what I figured. But how the guy got enough of a "habit" to need 8mg suboxone per dose just from doing nine perks?! I have a feeling someone's being snowed.
Click to expand...

Oh, and he did 8mg sub the first two days, and a half (4mg) the next two days... and the next two days wants to do 2mg. The first two days along with the 8mg of sub he took 4mg kpin, the second two days he took 2mg of kpin along with the 4mg of sub, the fifth day he didnt have a kpin to my knowledge... now he wants to take 2mg of kpin with the 2mg of sub (which will be today and tomorrow).
 
IMO means in my opinion. Similarly, if you see IME it's in my experience.

Yeah, either he was taking more Percocet/methadone than he told you, or he's using the subs to get high, or both. You have to have a pretty decent habit built up to really require 8mg of suboxone a day.
I say he's still putting you on, but I'm not sure what the situation is exactly or how he is, so I can't say for sure. Trust your gut.
 
wezface said:
IMO means in my opinion. Similarly, if you see IME it's in my experience.

Yeah, either he was taking more Percocet/methadone than he told you, or he's using the subs to get high, or both. You have to have a pretty decent habit built up to really require 8mg of suboxone a day.
I say he's still putting you on, but I'm not sure what the situation is exactly or how he is, so I can't say for sure. Trust your gut.
Click to expand...

I knew it was something and when i confronted him is when he said it was the percs and methadone pills. but i'm sure it was more or something else and that was his way of making me think he was being honest, and stringing me along.I definitely think he was using more than he said he was... but i didnt think it was H because his pupils weren't constricted like pins. Im not sure if there is something he can take to counteract the pupil constriction caused by H. Or is that caused by opiates in general? Does suboxone or kpins cause the pupils to shrink, but not to the point of being pinned? his eyes have looked funny before and during the suboxone "taper/abuse."

Yesterday he looked better in the evening... after taking 4mg of sub around 8am in the morning and no kpin at all. but then this morning around 5am, he was nodding again in his sleep. Like, he'll wake up, sit up, try to light a cigarette and nod off the whole time he's trying to light it and smoke it. i dont get why he's still nodding 24 hours after taking 4mg of sub?? do you have any insight for me?
 
He's either taking more suboxone than he's telling you about, or he's taking something else to be nodding like that.
As far as the pupil constriction, if he isn't super high his pupils won't constrict to pins. Sometimes they just won't either, depending on the person.
 
The good news here is that if he's nodding hard off of 4mg sub, that means he had not built up a big habit prior to "coming clean" and trying the taper.
Don't take the lies personally- it's a victory he was able to come to you at all. He was probably just trying to "soften the blow".. If you look around, you'll find so many closet married male addicts who are scared beyond belief of their wife finding out. So, there's something to be said for him being able to confide in you. Try not to be too hard on him over the minor details (nine Percocet vs ninety- he's on the right track now). However, it's a fine line. There's no need of him nodding out- that signals his dose is too high.
 
wezface said:
He's either taking more suboxone than he's telling you about, or he's taking something else to be nodding like that.
As far as the pupil constriction, if he isn't super high his pupils won't constrict to pins. Sometimes they just won't either, depending on the person.
Click to expand...

Ok... I've seen him high enough before to know that they can get ridiculously tiny. I guess he's not super high.
 
I try not to take it personally.... I'm not usRd to this at all and it's hard for me too. I know it was a big step to tell me at all, and he makes sure I know that. yeah, the fine line is where I am having trouble at. Thanks again!
 
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