Opioids Have you heard; cigarettes more addictive than H

[Ayrios]

Nicotine has a big aide in addiction by being very ritually addictive, more so than any other drug probably. No doubt the compound itself is addictive, but a large part of why it's so hard to quit smoking when you've been doing it so long is it's a ritual you enjoy, and one you can practice many times a day (more times than you can safely inject, for sure) and in [an ever-diminishing] many locales.

 

[laCster]

i could go without roxi and MXE, but i would never give up my maryjane

 

[OGstickyswisher]

Nicotine has a big aide in addiction by being very ritually addictive, more so than any other drug probably. No doubt the compound itself is addictive, but a large part of why it's so hard to quit smoking when you've been doing it so long is it's a ritual you enjoy, and one you can practice many times a day (more times than you can safely inject, for sure) and in [an ever-diminishing] many locales.

I'm not really following your stance on the topic. I mean I understand what you are saying. But

I had a good 5 year habit with cigarettes, started when I was 14 too which often reinforces the addiction considering your brain is still developing. The most pleasurable part for me was the act of smoking (ritually), and I could practice this ritual many times a day - but that's only because there are 24 hours in a day, and my cigarette (smoking enjoyment) only lasted 15 minutes at the most. So there's plenty more hours left in the day after only 15 minutes. So naturally I smoke more for a more consistent ritual enjoyment through out the day.

Now a days with heroin, if I so choose to practice my well developed ritual on a daily basis, or whenever. I can do this once or twice a day on average.
"Wait a minute though, that means you're not practicing the IV ritual as much as you would a cigarette"
These type of rituals precede themselves in enjoyment.
My heroin ritual starts from the minute I park my car after buying a bag, through the injection phase, then continues to last until I am no longer high. Therefore these heroin rituals are much more potent forms of enjoyment, as opposed to my smoking enjoyment, which if I'd want to enjoy as much as a heroin ritual I would be smoking all day.

Considering this I don't see how your statement stands; as even just one exception breaks the rule.
Just because you practice 'the act of' more times with one thing doesn't mean it is a more addictive ritual, it just means it's a short and weak ritual.
Stronger reinforcement of an addictive ritual is not and should not be based on quantity, but also quality.

 

[Ayrios]

I'm not sure where I really stated a rule. I added "probably" because it's only my theory and it's something that would require peer-reviewed trials to make it something even approaching fact.

The heroin ritual is certainly more powerful and longer-lasting per iteration, and if you like needles, it's a whole lot sexier seeing that crimson plume fill the barrel and knowing you're almost there than taking that first hit of a cig and blackening your lungs. However, I was suggesting the nicotine ritual is a more accessible one as the urge can be fulfilled in a larger variety of situations and doesn't take as long. Some junkies will get off anywhere, and I love dope, but if I smoked cigarettes, I think I'd find that ritual much more accessible and easier to relive in more situations given its legal status, relative ease of use, and the noncommittal nature of it (who's going to throw their needle out after pushing the plunger half-way, and if the ritual for you lasts through the end of effects, who can cancel their high mid-nod after a few really good bags? . Beyond all that, I still think number of iterations of the ritual are one factor, though, despite how much longer one's heroin ritual lasts (and if it starts as soon as you cop or when you actually mix the shot). More iterations, more subconscious compulsion...

Perhaps we can agree that the effects/ritual percentages as it relates to addictiveness for heroin is much higher in favor of effects than that of nicotine (with an implied syringe as a delivery device for the former, a cigarette for the latter). Perhaps we can't Generally, I think ritual plays a larger part in nicotine addiction than it does in heroin addiction, though.

 

[OGstickyswisher]

Well said. Really.

I'm not sure where I really stated a rule

You hadn't, what I said was being used just as an expression towards your views.

I was suggesting the nicotine ritual is a more accessible one as the urge can be fulfilled in a larger variety of situations and doesn't take as long.

Ah, I had taken it another direction.

I think we've found some common ground or understanding between us then, and I would have to agree that ritual plays a bigger role in addiction with cigarettes as opposed to heroin concerning majority status.
The ends between process addiction and substance addiction with myself are very close. If I find myself without something to IV and my mind bugging out I can find some amount of solace with just IV'ing saline/water as I've grown close to the action of injecting.
Which I guess just demonstrates how powerful of a substance this stuff is - Not that there is a lack of this with cigarettes.

 

[Ayrios]

Yeah, I think there's plenty of common ground here. A lot of discussion about what drug is more or less addictive versus another is rather philosophical, or pseudo-scientific, in nature anyway. We've all seen the table where nicotine is at the top of the 'addictiveness' index with a rating of '99' and cocaine follows with a rating of '95' or '96' with heroin and meth close below, and when you consider how little the drugs have in common with one another and how many other factors exist (duration, ability to function, and of course ritual: smoking a cig whenever you want or to provide a little stress relief, copping and preparing dope for injection and seeing it home, passing the meth pipe around with your friends in a compulsive cycle that only ends when you're out of shards, or competitively railing lines of blow made all the more attractive by the high cost and some of the stylish stigma it still carries), a quantization seems arbitrary and overly simplistic. That's a little off point, but anyway...

It's an interesting point regarding injecting water. I know of many who have done it when out, and I've only done it once and it was more like a refresher course on IV'ing while I was waiting for my shit to arrive (doesn't mean I didn't derive a little pleasure from 'succeeding' ), but I've certainly never heard of someone sucking on a cigarette butt that's all filter (unless they're too fucked to realize their smoke went out several minutes ago). It seems logical that the placebo administration, however short-lasting, of a drug with a more powerful and euphoric effect would itself be more worthy of performing. Considering the potentiation of the rush many get just from the act of pushing the plunger (for me, this has grown with time), ritual could have a larger effect on the actual drug experience of heroin even though we agree ritual is a proportionately larger factor relative to effect in nicotine addiction than in heroin addiction. Interesting, and of course, like the question in the topic, impossible to prove!

[And yeah, the cigarette butt comparison is a little bit flawed since spent cigarettes don't emit nicotine-free smoke like a syringe with inert contents can still inject liquid into the veins, but I digress...]

 

[burn out]

Dunno if this has been said but its difficult to compare legal with illegal drugs in terms of their addictiveness. Society puts A LOT of pressure on opiate addicts to get clean To be an opiate addict takes a tremendous amount of resources or effort. You must constantly acquire large sums of money. This makes being addicted to opiates really a drag.

So, I think a lot of people manage to stay clean off heroin because they think "I don't want to go back to that lifestyle" of having no money, not to mention having to conceal their use from coworkers, bosses and potentially being looked down upon by non usng friends and relatives. Now if opiates, like tobacco, were socially acceptable and sold at affordable prices at every gas station I think a lot less people would want to quit it. Being addicted to opiates certainly isn't an ideal way to live in my opinion (and I say this as a current heroin addict) but it's not really all that bad either (aside from the expense). I can live a perfectly normal life on heroin.

 

[redsweater]

i reckon benzos are the most addictive substance, at least for ppl who need em
im far more addicted to xanax than oxy, but never got addcited nor even enjoyed ciggies (only occasionally smoke when drunk)
however i've never shot H so i can't really answer the question

 

[Aporia]

I think that a lot of what I was going to say has been covered in this thread. Although my opinion is that opiates may be more physically addicting, or maybe the right way to say it is the withdraws are a lot tougher than nicotine (in my experience) I often find myself saying to people "tobacco is way more addicting than opiates". And I think what I mean to say instead is that it is a lot harder to completely quite tobacco because of the social acceptability of smoking. It's not like you can just go out on your ten minute break at work and smoke up some H (or whatever your ROA is, although you can pop a few pills, whatever) and it be OKAY with people. When you are an opiate addict it is stigmatized in a way that a smoker of tobacco is not. And in my opinion that is one of the MAIN reasons that most people (especially me) often will say or can be heard saying that tobacco is really more addictive than opiates.

I know someone above had wanted to stick to scientific facts, but I think addiction has a lot more to it than just brain chemistry. In my opinion addiction and what consists of addiction is quite dependent itself on culture, norms, memes, etc...

I think it took 3,000 years of opiate use in the world before people even started considering it addictive. (It now slips my mind as to where I read this information-I think it was in one of my psychedelic studies books but it could have been here on Bl)..

Addiction, although in a sense is a 'scientific' word, I think carries a certain connotation with it. Maybe we should be using "dependence" instead of addcition?

 

[attempt4]

When did I say the severity constitutes the substances addiction potential? Never. I fully realize cigarettes are addictive, hell, highly addictive. I've been smoking for about 4 years straight now, averaging a pack and a half a day (generally 2 packs, but, sometimes a pack, just doing average) I realize how cigarettes work, and still, I've never experienced withdraw from them. I'm an opiate addict, and I've recently gone 3 days without cigarettes a few times in the month because I had no money. Never did I want to do anything 'wrong' to get my cigarettes, unlike with opiates. That seems to be your argument.

You implied that severity of withdrawal is a significant constituent for a drug's addictive potential simply by comparing the two's withdrawals. Otherwise you would have left out that comment deeming it not important enough. But let's not get too deep into your post here because you have entirely missed my point of your subjective experience meaning very little here, i'm afraid.
If someone said "I can kick Heroin much easier than tobacco" would that instantly vitiate your argument, imply that only he was correct and mean that Tobacco really is more addictive? No. That is a matter of opinion and experience and means very little in arbitrating solid status.

It's a complex issue, like I say, but studies suggests that Nicotine indeed is more powerfully addictive than Heroin. I shall try to dig up some related research later after going outside and standing in the sky.

 

[OGstickyswisher]

It's a complex issue, like I say, but studies suggests that Nicotine indeed is more powerfully addictive than Heroin.

Curious. In what sense do you mean more powerfully addictive?

 

[poppyplanet]

Not to come off as a know it all, but come on, cigarettes are way more addicting than any other substance I've ever done, including heroin and crack cocaine. Just because you don't get bed ridden sick off of the withdrawal, doesn't mean the mental cravings won't drive you nuts alone. I turn into a complete dickhead if I don't smoke every half hour. And knowing all this, I still love tobacco sadly, but it is my choice to love it even though it's killing me internally. But that's what I love about freedom. People should do what they want as long as others aren't directly affected, physically. Now, emotionally, that's another debate for another time.