Opioids Have you heard; cigarettes more addictive than H

[OGstickyswisher]

I'm just wondering who else has heard this claim. About cigarettes being more addictive than heroin.

I've heard it a few times, and once again today so I thought I'd bring it here since I couldn't find anything with the search.

Personally, cigarettes were only a problem when I thoroughly enjoyed them which only lasted 5 years. Even when I was a regular smoker, say if I ran out; I wouldn't feel any specific need for a smoke and generally wait till the next day to buy another pack.
To this day I smoke on occasion but cigarettes have lost their purpose and meaning in my life. I'll enjoy one every so often I'm offered one or something. I haven't bought a pack in ages I can't even remember when.
I'm hooked on the activity of smoking, that's the only enjoyment I get from a cigarette these days. My smoking fix is bud.
Psychologically a cigarette only provides smoking enjoyment, not cigarette enjoyment. Do you follow?

The entire idea of even comparing these two things is absurd at least from my perspective.

I've never had anything consume my mind more than heroin has. I like to think I'm pretty good with my use (at least so far) in terms of how much I actually use and how I use it. When I use my 31gauge on the typical day (let's say I'm on a week binge) I will use relatively low or mild doses, around 50mg of powder from a rock (actual diamorph. content is not known) once or twice a day, usually twice. It's great shit but it's still a low dose, I still function 100%; when people notice I'm high on dope they don't notice it as that; they just wonder what's put me in such a great mood, I've inquired such information. Then one day ( some times two) out of the week I'll have a larger dose 100mg of powder or so, with a great rush and all-day high I love it, nodding included.
My technique is very sterile and careful from everything to keeping new needles in stock, plenty of alcohol swabs, fresh saline, sterile spoon, very very rarely do I not succeed first register, well kept site rotation, as I pull my needle out I put pressure on the site and hold for a minute or more. It's just the kind of person I am, careful and meticulous with everything I feel needs care, with the exception of not using micron filters. Granted I haven't been using a needle very long; 6 months around. Been with d for 3 years.

The psychological draw this meticulous process has proceeded on myself as a person is very much intense. I take my time and enjoy every step as much as I can. Especially seeing that velvet red jetting back....oh my.

And honestly, I don't see a problem with it.... But that's neither here nor there - back on track.

I can only say I cannot see myself where the day comes that I do not use heroin for the rest of my life (Unlike a few very strong I know). I mean this in the way cigarettes are for me now (which might possibly be the best option), I don't go for a smoke nearly on a regular basis. One or two smokes in a month tops. For now though I'll damn sure have frequent use.
With cigarettes I see a very near day where I won't even touch them.

So how do you really compare these two, with relapse rate per x amount of people? Without the actual total of persons surveyed mattering though.
I'd be very interested to see such statistics.

Hah. I don't know about you but my DOC is well more addictive than cigarettes. I suppose if your DOC was cigarettes that might change some shit up though huh.

Whats yo thoughts on the topic? Aside from maybe "Damn this guys rambling on"

EDIT

Pretend you have any where from 5 minutes - 5 hours left to be alive on this earth. Regardless if you've tried either, your only options are: Have shot of dope, or have a pack of smokes.
^ not that this determines shit

 

[BIGsherm7272]

I was able to quit benzos and opiates several times before I even thought of quitting smoking. Of course they are nowhere near as euphoric as either, and only really give you a buzz the first couple of weeks you smoke them, but for me nicotine is the most physically and mentally addictive substance I know. Now withdrawals are a different story.......

 

[GolemGolem]

Well, cigs were the only thing that could reliably make me get in my car at 4am still half drunk or tripping, drive twenty min into town, feeling like shit about driving still half tripping, in order to get more of something I knew was no good for me, and providing no real fun or pleasure... Then again my opiate useage has always been limited to what was free or prescribed (ie, not much other than a broken pelvis back in highschool) and I traded out cigs for e-cigs a few months back so...*shrugs* sounds like a talking point courtasy of The American Lung Association?

 

[suessmayr]

This is a bullshit argument for the following reason: nicotine is not more physiologically addictive or habit-forming than heroin, meth, coke, benzos or any other real drugs. What they mean when they say that nicotine is the most addictive substance is that, as a matter of fact, more people become addicted to nicotine than anything else. This is obviously because of its availability. Nicotine is just the substance that the largest number of people become addicted to. It is not the most 'addictive' substance in the usual sense.

 

[attempt4]

Let's determine what constitutes an addictive substance. It's an extremely broad topic with many facets to be explored and I would like to delve deeper into this, preferably with objective, neurological facts (dopamine down-regulation etc) to solidify any claims.
I'm not interested in whether you personally found cigs easier than heroin to give up, because that means fuck all in terms of true addictive potential.
I used extremely addictive drugs with absolutely no issue but found Cannabis impossible to give up - both are widely available and common sense dictates that "harder drugs"(meth, for one) is more addictive than Cannabis.
So, let's not discuss subjective experience.

This is a claim I have heard before also, but would enjoy some facts to substantiate the claims.

 

[TheLostBoys]

I tried smoking cigs several times but could never get hooked & thats a good thing. Lived in Greece for several months & did the european thing where everyone smokes cigs & drinks iced coffee, they go hand in hand but thank goodness I just never got why people smoke cigs. They never hooked me & thats a good thing & yes, ive read scientific reports that cigs are more addictive than cocaine but havent read about the heroin thing until I read this thread, but totally believe it.

Also, I was talking to my cousin & he said he read that the tobacco being grown is grown stronger & with more addictive chemicals in it, I was assuming they are the same chemicals but stronger. F**kin tobacco companies.

 

[verso]

Heroin and cigarettes... a match made in heaven.

 

[xxsicknessxx]

I think people carry smoking habits way longer then other drug habits, I think in a way its very true its more addicting. However I rather be addicted to smoking then herion

 

[OGstickyswisher]

This is a bullshit argument for the following reason: nicotine is not more physiologically addictive or habit-forming than heroin, meth, coke, benzos or any other real drugs. What they mean when they say that nicotine is the most addictive substance is that, as a matter of fact, more people become addicted to nicotine than anything else. This is obviously because of its availability. Nicotine is just the substance that the largest number of people become addicted to. It is not the most 'addictive' substance in the usual sense.

Ah I see.
That's sort of a direction I was trying to take, because obviously if something is more widespread available overall, of course more people will use said substance as opposed to something that is not quite as available.
So if you were really talking about addictive qualities in the sense of actual addiction say in a lab where the environment is completely controlled (too many variables to get into so just work with me here) and you observed length of dependency, cravings (not sure how this could be measured, but humor me) the number of people with individual will to stop using said substance, and relapse rate - I just feel like it would come down to cigarettes not being nearly as addictive as opposed to another individuals DOC; in this case heroin.

But all of that is just speculation, and as attempt4 has said means, that means fuck all; and I agree, I just figured we could ponder this with both subjective experience and factual data. Since I don't have any current factual data, it's difficult to really get into it.

Let's determine what constitutes an addictive substance. It's an extremely broad topic with many facets to be explored and I would like to delve deeper into this, preferably with objective, neurological facts (dopamine down-regulation etc) to solidify any claims.
I'm not interested in whether you personally found cigs easier than heroin to give up, because that means fuck all in terms of true addictive potential.
I used extremely addictive drugs with absolutely no issue but found Cannabis impossible to give up - both are widely available and common sense dictates that "harder drugs"(meth, for one) is more addictive than Cannabis.
So, let's not discuss subjective experience.

This is a claim I have heard before also, but would enjoy some facts to substantiate the claims.

I completely understand how individual subjective data doesn't mean dick when you want the straight facts- I'm looking for facts and haven't found them yet. The next best thing would be to study the individual experience since I have no idea how to fully study and understand the brain and what chemical reactions are happening there and what effect that has on said individual psychologically.

Starting any where is better than not at all. Unless of course you don't care about the topic period; which again is easy to understand. There's no real gain in having such knowledge. This was just a drug-fueled thread trying to take direction any where. Maybe I should have a better starting point next time.

I think people carry smoking habits way longer then other drug habits, I think in a way its very true its more addicting. However I rather be addicted to smoking then herion

Why do you think this is? Is this because you can virtually buy a pack of smokes anyplace that sells anything. While the drug dealers are few and far between compared to how many gas stations and stores there are.
Or simply because smokes are more addictive?

 

[verso]

"According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science, 32 percent of people who try tobacco become dependent, as do 23 percent of those who try heroin, 17 percent who try cocaine, 15 percent who try alcohol and 9 percent who try marijuana."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/30/h...-not-a-moral-lapse.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

I believe it, actually. I'm not sure why we still hold onto this idea that heroin is the most ridiculously, unbelievably addictive substance in the universe.

 

[OGstickyswisher]

I believe it, actually. I'm not sure why we still hold onto this idea that heroin is the most ridiculously, unbelievably addictive substance in the universe.

Well, for me it is - so I hold a slight bias in this sense. I've never been more hooked on anything in my entire life; I've tried lots of substances and nothing quite grabbed a hold of me as heroin has. I've put a lot of time and thought into it though and there may very well be a reason for that. Considering the first time my body was introduced to opiates I was mearly reaching the ripe age of 2 years old, and the rest of my history opiates have never been far, undergoing more than 10 surgeries by the time I was 10 years old. I can only imagine how that affected my brain development, and the possible link as to why opiates and more in specific potent opiates play such a huge factor in my life.

 

[ykm420]

This is ridiculous. I've been smoking for quite some time, and I can quit whenever I want. I've gone days without smoking, and though I do want them when I take my opiates, I don't w/d from not having them.

 

[habboz]

"According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science, 32 percent of people who try tobacco become dependent, as do 23 percent of those who try heroin, 17 percent who try cocaine, 15 percent who try alcohol and 9 percent who try marijuana."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/30/h...-not-a-moral-lapse.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

I believe it, actually. I'm not sure why we still hold onto this idea that heroin is the most ridiculously, unbelievably addictive substance in the universe.

this is only true because cigarettes are legal... I garuntee you if it was the other way around it would be totally different..

 

[attempt4]

Starting any where is better than not at all. Unless of course you don't care about the topic period; which again is easy to understand. There's no real gain in having such knowledge. This was just a drug-fueled thread trying to take direction any where. Maybe I should have a better starting point next time.

Sorry mate, I was saying that more in response to suessmayr. The thread itself is a good topic and you started just fine....but yeah, let's get a bit more objective and factual This is a fascinating discussion though! Good topic.

This is ridiculous. I've been smoking for quite some time, and I can quit whenever I want. I've gone days without smoking, and though I do want them when I take my opiates, I don't w/d from not having them.

Do you think severity of withdrawals is the sole constituent of a substance's addictive potential?

Your subjective supposition means very little when one consider's the hard facts.

Many people experience intense withdrawals from Nicotine addiction, including severe agitation, insomnia, irritability and depression. Cigarettes activate the Mesolimbic pathway just like other "hard" drugs, like smack. Of course by this nature, Nicotine also effectively down-regulates dopamine production upon cessation of use to compensate for the intense dopamine increase during use.

One of the myriad aspects that actually cause Tobacco's intense addiction is the fact a user essentially ingests the drug a great number of times more than the average Cocaine or Heroin user. Smoking 1-2 packs a day results in 200-400 hits a day. 200-400 hits daily of a potent drug altering the serotonin, norepinephrine, acetylcholine (amongst others) neurotransmitters is going to result in a difficult habit to kick.

What constitutes "addictiveness" is complex, like I said and is certainly not solely related to how psychoactive a drug may be nor it's withdrawals upon cessation. Pharmacological, societal and behavioural influences all play a key role in a drug's addictiveness.

 

[habboz]

This is ridiculous. I've been smoking for quite some time, and I can quit whenever I want. I've gone days without smoking, and though I do want them when I take my opiates, I don't w/d from not having them.

I know right rediculous bs, i started smoking at 11 and ive quit multiple times and dont smoke anymore (18 now).

Bottem line opiates are def more addictive and alot better all around anyways, cigarettes are stupid as fuck...

 

[doozpatrol]

It's gotta be a contextual thing. If you're quitting H i'd figure you'd stop haunting old spots/friends and probably not hang out in the same room with someone who is riggin up or whatever. Cigarettes are so ubiquitous, it's hard to be at work or even outside without seeing someone smoking and they usually have no problems parting with a couple, not to mention the social stigma of being a junky vs that of a smoker. Personally i can barely tell what cigarettes do, yeah the lightheaded thing and they DO seem to make other drugs better while your smoking, i can take it or leave it. Opioids is a lifestyle in and of itself

 

[Trigeminal]

I know right rediculous bs, i started smoking at 11 and ive quit multiple times and dont smoke anymore (18 now).

Bottem line opiates are def more addictive and alot better all around anyways, cigarettes are stupid as fuck...

Yea for sure, I've quit cigarettes on my own, but never managed to quit h on my own.

 

[verso]

this is only true because cigarettes are legal... I garuntee you if it was the other way around it would be totally different..

How exactly does the availability of cigarettes change anything? If you're saying that there are more smokers than heroin users, a percentage is a percentage is a percentage.

If I give 2,000 people cigarettes and 500 grow dependent upon tobacco, that's 25% and so if I were to give 4,000 people cigarettes, the assumption is that 1,000 would grow dependent. If I give 200 people heroin and 28 grow dependent, that's 14% ... It's only important that you have a sizeable research group for both smokers and heroin users in order to come up with some fair assessment.

But if you're saying that the availability of a substance leads to a greater number of people experimenting with that substance, well, I'm not sure that's exactly true.

 

[OGstickyswisher]

But if you're saying that the availability of a substance leads to a greater number of people experimenting with that substance, well, I'm not sure that's exactly true.

This has potential to be a very controversial statement.

My speculations on this personally.... It seems as if there's no definite answer, with the beliefs I hold. I both agree & disagree, so maybe the only answer is that there will always be fluctuation between the two.

Take a step behind my eyes: I feel as if heroin (and all substances included, but for the sake of post length we'll stick with heroin) on a global scale was no longer banned, criminalized, and made available say how alcohol is; you would see a rise (be it significant or not) in heroin use simply because of legality making it more available to try. How ever after so much time goes by based on (my idea of) human nature; use would decrease overall and those who continue to use would either be physically or psychologically dependent, and as newer generations come along I believe they would be less inclined to try heroin.
Again, just my belief.

I'm not much a fan of alcohol but the only reason I drink is practically everyone and their mother will drink at least on occasion, and seems to be the staple of intoxication for our current world. If I go to a party sure there's probably cocaine, maybe some psychedelics, a slight chance of opiates, but vast majority are drinking - so to party, you drink (or I drink) and probably rail a few lines.
If a party were not comprised of more than 90% persons drinking and other drugs were to be available in the way alcohol is, I would choose cocaine or MDMA to rock out more than I would pick alcohol.

If we want to dive deeper we could probably go back in history and find some comparisons and correlations with prohibition, possibly. Though in the US at least people were still pretty adamant about their alcohol so who knows what we would find. I'm more than happy to look into this when I've got some time, so unless someone beats me to it....

Hmmm. Quite a mind fuck this entire area is.

Let me ask you BL, if on a global scale all substances were no longer banned and criminalized; do you think substance use would be highly prevalent? And do you think this would decrease over time or continue to rise?

Just some things to think about.

 

[ykm420]

Do you think severity of withdrawals is the sole constituent of a substance's addictive potential?

Your subjective supposition means very little when one consider's the hard facts.

Many people experience intense withdrawals from Nicotine addiction, including severe agitation, insomnia, irritability and depression. Cigarettes activate the Mesolimbic pathway just like other "hard" drugs, like smack. Of course by this nature, Nicotine also effectively down-regulates dopamine production upon cessation of use to compensate for the intense dopamine increase during use.

One of the myriad aspects that actually cause Tobacco's intense addiction is the fact a user essentially ingests the drug a great number of times more than the average Cocaine or Heroin user. Smoking 1-2 packs a day results in 200-400 hits a day. 200-400 hits daily of a potent drug altering the serotonin, norepinephrine, acetylcholine (amongst others) neurotransmitters is going to result in a difficult habit to kick.

What constitutes "addictiveness" is complex, like I said and is certainly not solely related to how psychoactive a drug may be nor it's withdrawals upon cessation. Pharmacological, societal and behavioural influences all play a key role in a drug's addictiveness.

When did I say the severity constitutes the substances addiction potential? Never. I fully realize cigarettes are addictive, hell, highly addictive. I've been smoking for about 4 years straight now, averaging a pack and a half a day (generally 2 packs, but, sometimes a pack, just doing average) I realize how cigarettes work, and still, I've never experienced withdraw from them. I'm an opiate addict, and I've recently gone 3 days without cigarettes a few times in the month because I had no money. Never did I want to do anything 'wrong' to get my cigarettes, unlike with opiates. That seems to be your argument.