Hardcore morality of todays society, will be our downfall.

[vegan]

The spread of AIDS at this point in time cant be stopped through any other means than eradication - FACT
Eradication at this point in time, means letting people with AIDS die, or ending there life prematurely - FACT

those are not facts at all

it's only your dangerous wishful thinking

a short lesson of life : before declaring that there is only one solution to a problem, you first have to ask yourself if there are other better ones
seems pretty obvious, no?

well, you didn't do it

What you are all basically saying, is that you are for the spread of AIDS because you are all too overly moral to 'break a few eggs to make an omelet' so to speak.

i see a few possibilities :

- you're a troll
- you're too young to be posting in a forum that requires you to question your own thoughts
- your capacities of deduction are quite low (cf your quote. btw making you one of those who you consider "burdens" to society)
- you're angry at something else but transpose your anger to the topics of this thread
- you're heavily influenced by people who themselves probably fit the third or fourth point
- ...

in all cases, you actually worry me

if you actually care about [the survival of] society, you have to include all of its members in it
if you got paralyzed in a car crash, you'd probably realize that there are no objective criterions to decide who is worth living or no

to take mr_p's example a bit further : why is the retard "worth it"?
even simpler than because he gives love :
because others love him

ii don't know about your family, but let's suppose that you have a mother who you love
(i do hope that you do have some positive emotions)
if she gets alzheimer you won't need anything back from her to want her to live
she may be a total "burden" to society, your love for her would be enough to justify her existence

 

[noone1]

Yeah youd have to take measures. Mandatory blood test for everybody twice a year till its gone or something, i agree it wouldnt be easy but i never said it would be.

As for Hitler, im not sure. He may have known what he was saying was BS and just said it anyway because he hated jews so much, or he may have been delusional to the point where he actually did think jews were a threat to society, i really couldnt say and niether can anyone else. The thing is, what i just said.. i mean how can you disagree - AIDS does spread, AIDS does kill people, and AIDS currently cant be stopped other than through eradication. If you want to clarify that and if you think im wrong please do so, thats why i created this thread.

Basix, question:

If when we had first discovered AIDS and lets say hypothetically there was only 10 people with it, would it have been wrong to kill those 10 people then to stop what has now become an out of control epidemic ? Or would you just let them go and spread the disease to let it become what is has become today? If those of course were the only options.

Your argument is pretty retarded, people are rightly comparing you to Hitler because you have the same arguments. He actually believed that jews and minorities where lesser races who only sucked at societies teat. Don't forget the nazis also killed off the mentally ill and disabled too it wasn't all about race it was about "making society better"

Darwin himself disavowed social darwinism and stated that his beliefs didn't apply to society. People who apply "survival of the fittest" to society use it to keep others down.

Also why be a big pussy and use aids as the example? Why not something that isn't sexually transmitted. We need to kill all those babbies with lower respitory infection for the good of society!

 

[TheAppleCore]

It's impossible for morality to harm a society. Morality is defined as the principles that preserve the happiness and well-being of a society.

I think you mean to argue that our morality is flawed.

 

[DeathKitty]

The Americans sterilised 64, 000 people deemed "unfit to breed" in the 1920s. Darwin himself was obsessed with genetics and after some long and tedious experiments (on flowers, not Jews). Some guy with a silly facial hair-do going on reads The Origin Of Species and decides Darwin was talking about "Survival of the fittest". Darwin never originally wrote that phrase and only added it in later copies. What Darwin talked about was "survival of the best adapted". Which is completely different. Scientists took this saying and ran with it. A few decades later Winston Churchil was trying to pass this eugenics bill through parliament. It was rejected. But in a country not so liberal, like Germany, it was not the government's usual position to ask for permission. So away they went. 6 million Jews. Well, since

 

[Psychedelic Gleam]

People with AIDS, spread AIDS - FACT
People with AIDS, can and usually will die from AIDS - FACT
The spread of AIDS at this point in time cant be stopped through any other means than eradication - FACT
Eradication at this point in time, means letting people with AIDS die, or ending there life prematurely - FACT

This is fucking moronic.

The way to stop aids is proper funding of information and education about the epidemic to EVERYONE. Just as needle exchanges have helped halt the spread of aids through injecting drugs in certain areas so could proper sex education and condom dispersal and std testing in the ENTIRE world. It would probably cost less than killing people. Plus by killing people there would be a fear of getting tested for aids or asking for information etc thus this would actually help promote aids. This idea of eradication would just turn individuals with AIDS into enemies and would halt our ability to alter the course of this disease. EDUCATION and PROPER FUNDING would help, killing people wouldn't help enough to justify killing people. People like the Pope are fucked up murderous assholes who believe that condoms/sex information are a source of the problem not the solution. Sorry but your "facts" are total shit.

 

[Papa1]

Re: Hitler - He was trying to strengthen the human race by removing elements that weakened it. As someone else said, he executed mentally handicapped people for the same reason he executed jews, and the same reason you're saying we should execute HIV positive people - to strengthen society.

Re: AIDS can't be stopped except through execution - That's not a fact. First, there are many ways to stop HIV, even though none of them are perfect. The main reason for transmission, especially in sub-saharan africa, is lack of education about the disease. (The former S Africa president was an HIV-AIDS denier for fucks sake.) Second, your idea for eradication by execution is flawed if only for practical reasons - you can transmit the virus during the acute infection stage, that is one month after infection, whereas the virus shows up on blood tests only after 6 or so months (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2614120). Even if there were a test that could detect virus one minute after infection, and note that that's a hypothetical, it still wouldn't work since you'd never have a non-time lagged representation of who's infected - that is, you'd always have people would get tested, transmit the disease, then find out they were positive. Execution is not a good way to stop the disease. Your views are based on prejudice and not fact.

Re: Historically ousting diseased people - This is called quarantine. You quarantine people who can passively transmit a disease. This makes sense with leprosy and TB since those diseases can be transmitted just by inhabiting the same space i.e. passively. This doesn't make sense with HIV since HIV needs active transmission; that means HIV positive individuals can inhabit the same space as HIV negative individuals and, with specific precautions such as no fucking without a condom, never transmit the virus. Also note that societies never executed members with TB and leprosy since that would be insane.

Re: Executing those 10 people - Maybe. Executing 33.2 million people I would never condone. Can you see the difference?


I encourage you to try and answer Jamshyd's question.

 

[daysonatrain]

my whole tribe has received SOoooOo so so very much from my 'retarded' cousin who will most likely not bread and really doesn't do much to provide for himself...

think about that

what have we received/learnt from this 'retard' in our family who drains our resources (pffft)

... what is it ?

LOVE

over-flowing ... sweet.. simple.... LOVE

I have worked with this population for 2 years now and I wholeheartedly agree iwth you.

moonyham, you dont seem to have any compassion at all. its people like you that will cause the downfall of our civilization, not "retards" or people with AIDS.

 

[moonyham]

Moonyham, in hopes of getting you to take responsibility for your thread and continue the discussion instead of pretending like nothing happened, I have a question for you.

Why is the survival and procreation of humanity so important to you?

Because i think people, should they choose not to be a negative influence, be allowed to experience this wonderful planet and what its got to offer. This simply wont be if 95% of the world ends up being infected with AID's and other diseases which we will end up choosing to decide are 'Ok as long as they dont spread it' which is stupid because people spread there diseases whether they like it or not, it really isnt up to them.

I would be pretty fucking pissed off if i was born with AIDS into a world that is super shit when, had we taken measures to prevent it, i wouldnt have this disease and be living in this slum, and the planet and our society would be much better/stayed at its peak and gone beyond.

People like i described are already experiencing it. That is truly what is inhumane. Not my rationale, not my theory's, but the fact that because of people like you, babies are being born into slums with diseases and grow up malnourished and relative to what 'could be', have a pretty fucking shit life.

Oh and why is it that these babies are being born into such a shit life? Because we are allowing society to be too moral. Africa is fully capable of surpassing the rest of the world in education, healthcare, crime management, and so on - but you know why they havnt? Because we arent letting them naturally 'strive to success'. You see, when people are cornered, when people have no other options but to fight - they will. But we are not letting them fail - when they run out of food we send some over. We are letting them get it into there heads that its OK to fail because someones gonna be there to support you. This isnt how humans got to where we are now and this is why our society is heading down the shitter. We got to where we were because we would fucking starve to death if we didnt strive to always have some sort of food source, we didnt have some nice white man in a red cross truck who'd come and give us a sack of rice if our crops got wiped out by floods.

we NEED to let people fail, we NEED to let people learn from there mistakes the HARD way. We simply become lazy and arent too fussed about skipping work now and then because 'oh fuck it, if i lose my job i can just go on the benefit'. This is the exact mentality people have and you all know it. This is why it use to be so common that people had just 1 or 2 jobs there whole life, because they couldnt rely on the govt to give them tea and biscuits while they wait in line to get there handout for doing NOTHING so they made fucking sure they got up every single day no matter what and went into work.


'The way to stop aids is proper funding of information and education about the epidemic to EVERYONE.'

Because this has worked oh so well so far hasnt it? People with education about AIDS still spread it, so that obviously isnt the solution. Its not like all the homosexuals in the US etc who are getting AIDS dont know about it, they are more fully aware and educated about this than most other groups but still choose to practice unsafe sex.(just as an example, not trying to target gays)

Re: Executing those 10 people - Maybe. Executing 33.2 million people I would never condone. Can you see the difference?


HAHAHA 'maybe'... Just say it man, stop being chicken shit - you'd kill em and you know it. As for 'can i see the difference' well yes and no. Because at the end of the day, if we dont kill those 33 million, its gonna turn into 66 million, and if we dont kill those 66 its going to turn into 122 and so on. This is exactly whats happened - it was once upon a time a very low number but we've ALLOWED IT to become this huge one and we are STILL allowing it to become even bigger.

And you know what? Id rather see 33million people die from aids than 122million, wouldnt you?

If you think seeing 33million people die from aids is better than seeing 122million, then isnt that the same as rather having 10 people die instead of 33million? Its the same thing just on a larger scale.

a short lesson of life : before declaring that there is only one solution to a problem, you first have to ask yourself if there are other better ones
seems pretty obvious, no?

Oh ok so what are the better ones? You all tell me my method is stupid and wouldnt work and is wrong, but dont provide a solution that would actually work and or is better.. the best one ive heard so far was education etc but even that is just pussy footing around the issue and it wont prevent the disease from spreading because like i said, educated people on this disease still spread it and get infected with it too!

A short lesson in life: Dont dismiss the only current working solution to a problem when you dont have one to replace it with that would also work.

Seems pretty obvious, no?

Swillow: 'Oh, I forgot- he killed himself. Weak, no?

I said 'weak, fucking WEAK' in that other thread because he killed himself to avoid a pussy ass sentence of 18months. that IS weak.

However, not all instances of killing yourself is weak.. id say killing yourself to save your family is pretty strong of you, or killing yourself to avoid an agonising slow death. Or, killing yourself to avoid being captured and tortured for who knows how long by the enemy resulting in eventual death.

 

[mr_p]

~


get real, 95% of the world isn't going to get inflicted by AIDS, it is a problem but it is by no means our greatest challenge ~

coming from an ecological worldview I could say we need to shoot people who don't care for our environment ... but then unfortunately my footprint is probably much larger than those filthy aid infested africans. so i'd have to kill myself .. and that's just not going to happen

Moonyham, try another angle ~

 

[Jamshyd]

but the fact that because of people like you, babies are being born into slums with diseases and grow up malnourished and relative to what 'could be', have a pretty fucking shit life..

Erm, "people like [me]"?

1. I had sworn off having children of my own, having seen the state the world is in. That said, I see no need to annihilate those who are counterproductive. All I know is that I feel pain, and so do they. The only thing each of us can do about it is help each other out, the future of humanity be fucked. Now is more important than tomorrow when it comes to empathy.

2. I'm gay anyway.

I really hope you're actually reading what others are telling you. I think you have a lot to learn from what everyone here has said.

 

[Jamshyd]

id say killing yourself to save your family is pretty strong of you

That right there, sir, is a "hardcore moral" statement.

 

[moonyham]

Mr p: So what % are we going to reach when everyone says 'ok, i think we've had enough now, lets stop spreading AIDS'???? Because at this rate, its never going to happen.

Jamshyd:
I use 'people like you' because all of you are disagreeing with me. You're all basically telling me that im immoral and wrong in that you think people with AIDS should be allowed to live to go on and spread there disease and i dont. Good on you though for being educated enough and responsible enough to make the decision to not bring more humans into this world.

And yes of course i am reading what people say, im not so ignorant that i dont atleast listen to what others have to say.

As for the the 'that right there is a hardcore moral statement'. Well, i myself dont have morals, not in the sense that there is a set list of dos and donts i have that are influenced into every agenda i face. I make decisions based on the situation and information at hand, and dont let some set rule(s) that were created before a situation was even invented to warp the outcome.

The 'Id say killing yourself to save your family is pretty strong of you' is based on logic and reasoning. Your family is pretty much the sole reason to thank for your birth, so giving your life to save them is only logical, as atleast thanks of them you got to experience some life. Morals dont even come into it.

A materialistic comparison would be, if someone gave you 10$ when you really needed it, it would only make sense to give them 10$ when they really needed it, assuming you had the ability too. Unless your a negative member of society, then you can just be greedy and never do a favor in return.

 

[noone1]

I don't think you're immoral I think you're retarded. Drop the bong and the philosophy 101 classes, dude.

 

[swilow]

I just think your plain and simply a person with a massive cruel streak. Have you ever had the 'flu Moony? Did anyone else catch it- as we know, influenza has killed more people then AIDS, so next time you get some symptoms, according to your "morals", you should...well, no I won't stoop there.

Because i think people, should they choose not to be a negative influence, be allowed to experience this wonderful planet and what its got to offer.

I would be pretty fucking pissed off if i was born with AIDS into a world that is super shit when, had we taken measures to prevent it, i wouldnt have this disease and be living in this slum, and the planet and our society would be much better/stayed at its peak and gone beyond.

Make up your mind man.

I bet you have never voiced these opinions in real life/off internet. Basically, most sane people would consider you deranged for wanting to kill people WHO ARE GOING TO DIE ANYWAY. You seem to forgot that human mortality is 100%. Sure, some peoples lives might be bad for them to experience, but they still have the RIGHT to experience it. Why do they have the right? Because they exist and thats it.

No wonder you can't look people in the eyes. You essentially hate humanity- yet, fact is, your human (most likely).

As for the the 'that right there is a hardcore moral statement'. Well, i myself dont have morals, not in the sense that there is a set list of dos and donts i have that are influenced into every agenda i face. I make decisions based on the situation and information at hand, and dont let some set rule(s) that were created before a situation was even invented to warp the outcome.

Yes, you do have morals. Morals aren't good or bad in themselves- they are merely values. Like how Hitler disvalued Jews....Your moral viewpoint is that people who are ill/handicapped/diseased/etc. should be killed to protect the rest of the world. Thats a moral standpoint, if not one completely unethical.

I want you to adress me directly- I am considered disabled, and recieve government payments to assist me. Keeps me just above the poverty line, and damn, I'm glad. What would you do with someone like me? Should I be killed because I spend taxpayers money, or becuase I am "disabled"?

Anyway, one thing this thread has made me aware of- I am SO GLAD I am not you. Your world must be so dark....Hopefully, you can one day feel some compassion, because, you know, your dying right now and your time is running out. Hate never bred anything worth paying heed to- I sincerely pity you.

Though, as a fellow human, I would embrace you given the chance- maybe your life has been hard. I don't know.

 

[moonyham]

LOL dont take this shit like im attempting to take over the world. Im just voicing an idealology and promoting dicussion, dont shoot the messanger. These are just words on a forum, chill. This thread is not what i believe in my everyday life dude

World and planet are two different things Btw, world being what we create it and planet being the physical structure.. 'our world' is a bit different from lets say, a dogs world yet we are both on the same planet na saiyan.

 

[swilow]

LOL dont take this shit like im attempting to take over the world. Im just voicing an idealology and promoting dicussion, dont shoot the messanger. These are just words on a forum, chill. This thread is not what i believe in my everyday life dude

Hmm, well your promoting and defending of these things made it seem so. Why did you start this thread with what you must admit is pretty ruthless if you don't believe it? All you've done, then, is effectively created a fuss for the hell of it. Unless you are simply trying to back out of the messy theory you surround yourself with....

Anyway, if this doesn't matter to you, I guess I'm out.

*scratches head in puzzlement- why?*

 

[moonyham]

Yeah i guess i like to find out why people act like they do in this modern society, in a slightly less conventional way.

 

[Izabella]

Yeah i guess i like to find out why people act like they do in this modern society, in a slightly less conventional way.

Yes and I read some posts somewhere, where you play within the grey area between intelligent and goofy....and set booby traps with people, like claiming to have a view which is not a real view but that of a hard against morals and pushing the issue hard enough that makes you sound callous; but you are stepping on dangerous grounds when you bring such issues or high sensitivity yet play around them in such a way, so as to just get people to respond to your posts....obviously!
Engaging them, Yes, in a constructive humanistic way? Well yes and no.
The humanistic way is craned out of the others but that is expectant with such way you constract your argument, what else would it be expectant? You bring out their reactions!

You may play light heartedly with serious issues, but you expect people to not take it seriously>at least you are couragious .....or foolish enough to place yourself out there, and receive the poisoned arrows thrown at you! Perhaps your heart has not bled yet, to make you change your ways!

 

[vegan]

Because i think people, should they choose not to be a negative influence, be allowed to experience this wonderful planet and what its got to offer

what are the objective criterions for "negative influence"?

because i see you having a much negative influence than people with HIV
you propose the kiling of millions
the huge majority of hiv positives don't spread the virus willingly, but because they are unaware of their own case, not well enough informed about the subject by authorities

they are victims to be helped
you are a potential murderer to be helped

people spread there diseases whether they like it or not, it really isnt up to them

Because this has worked oh so well so far hasnt it? People with education about AIDS still spread it,

don't take it badly
but how old are you?
have you travelled?
have you met people from different backgrounds?
have you questionned anything about what you've be fed by either television, your relatives or your friends?

because anyone with an open mind who thinks about it for one minute knows that the efforts put in prevention and information about aids are absolutely ridiculous compared to the importance of the disease

as an example, there's a south african movie that came out maybe 3 years ago in which a kid goes tp the big town because everyone is dying in his village and know one knows why

do you understand the message?
especially in africa, many people have no clue about the truths and myths surrounding the disease.
many people have no idea what it is
are they to blame?
or is the lack of information (=the governments) to blame?

I would be pretty fucking pissed off if i was born with AIDS

another reason to be pissed is that you'd instantly be on your own "to execute" list

actually, do tell us about yourself

did you get good grades at school?
because if you were (are?) not in the leading group, your genes are certainly a disgrace to humanity
and we absolutely have to prevent you from breeding sub-humans who won't be the elite of the world

once again, what are the criterions and were do they stop?
who brings more to society, that crippled hawkins? or the genius who you are and who hasn't learned any lesson from what history has shown us?

Because we are allowing society to be too moral

your comments are exactly those of a moral extremist
if you can't see why, buy another mirror

Africa is fully capable of surpassing the rest of the world in education, healthcare, crime management, and so on - but you know why they havnt? Because we arent letting them naturally 'strive to success'. You see, when people are cornered, when people have no other options but to fight - they will. But we are not letting them fail - when they run out of food we send some over

maybe you don't follow the news
how can you say that we support africa when people are dying of hunger and disease every minute there?

sending a bag of water purifying pills for a population of millions is not exactly what i would call "preventing them from striving to success"

also, drop the "I and them"
in this world, it's "we"

we're all together in it and because you were born in a lucky family and never had to walk 5 kms to the next water well doesn't make you any better than those who have to every day

we NEED to let people fail, we NEED to let people learn from there mistakes the HARD way

where would you be if your parents hadn't taught you to eat?
you'd be dead

to teach you how to swim, did they trow you alone in the middle of the ocean? or did they hold you by the arm, one meter away from the shore?

in this world, people are not born with equal chances
many people are born in conditions that you may talk about but obviously don't actually understand
those people need others' help as much as you needed your mom to feed you


i'll stop here cause i'm spending time on this post while still not sure if you're a troll or a kid who would need to put his prejudices aside while waiting a few more years before having this exchange again

i wish you well
but no well at all will come to you if you don't start questionning your compassionless theories

 

[moonyham]

whoa whoa hold up, im not a 'potential murderer' you asshole. I dont push these views onto anyone nor do i plan to enforce them by any means. Im sharing a rather fuck up view yes(well by societies standards), but that doesnt mean i believe them personally or live my life to it. You have the choice to keep coming back into this thread and if you dont like it - then dont. Its up to you, im not following your around now am i? Im not knocking on your door with a book in my hand preaching this shit So stop taking this to a personal level because im not - just answer and query what im saying, dont question the poster behind it.

Now, to answer your post:

Deciding what is and isnt a negative influence? Ive already answered who is, and thats people who are counter productive, people who take but dont give, people who do more damage than they repair and so on. I guess it would be somewhat similar to how our countries currently process people who are deemed a 'negative influence on society'. I mean, we already chuck people into a little cell for 15 years for being in possession of a bottle of which just happens to contain a few pills because they are 'a negative influence to society'. The governments already decide for you that they can smash down your door and tackle and pin everyone in that house to the ground and arrest you - with no explanation at all till hours after. You think enforcing more realistic rules and approaches to what we actually are gonna need to keep society and humanity working is impossible? We've kept up thus far now havnt we with our police and their guns and fast cars, our court systems and prisons and so on.

What i think you guys need to understand is that the way we live, this society we are apart of, cannot continue to live like this. We ARE going to have to do something about it, and we can either choose to do something early, and get minimal losses, in comparison to if we just let it happen later which will cause alot higher losses.

We are eventually going to have to resort back to alot more primitive living if we dont do something about it, too, aswell as the higher losses. What do you think is going to happen when there is far more counter productive members of a society than productive? I mean really, what do you actually think is going to happen? Because if we dont say NO to these losers, these counter productive members of society now, then when will we? When are people finally gonna say 'enough is enough'? Like i said with the AIDS, in response to someone saying 'AIDS isnt going to inflict 95% of the population', then WHAT percentage ARE people going to stop? Is there just going to be some magic number we reach one day that every human in the world stops and says 'oh ok time to stop spreading AIDS now bro' ???


What do you all think we should do? You hound my ideas but provide none of your own. You refuse to answer questions in direct relation to this subject because you know that im right and you just cant fucking handle it. You want to continue living in your little bubble of sweet songs and lollipops and not see the world for what it actually is. Common:

If when we had first discovered AIDS and lets say hypothetically there was only 10 people with it, would it have been wrong to kill those 10 people then to stop what has now become an out of control epidemic ? Or would you just let them go and spread the disease to let it become what is has become today? If those of course were the only options.

now, moving on:

in this world, people are not born with equal chances
many people are born in conditions that you may talk about but obviously don't actually understand
those people need others' help as much as you needed your mom to feed you

You know WHY people in this world arent born with equal chances? Why is it that a baby in ethiopia might not(and most likely wont) have as high of quality of life as lets say, a baby from the UK. Answer that why dont ya and i dont mean the surface issue, i mean the deep rooted issue that causes this and how it came about.

I find it pretty amusing you guys are basically telling me to put myself in other peoples shoes etc when you yourselves arent. Put yourself in the shoes(or lack of) of some baby born with AIDS into a slum? How the fuck would you feel? To add to that, how do you feel knowing that the way you are living and the morals and shit that you live by is the (in)direct cause of this happening to thousands of babies every week?