H Tolerance increase after a 3 day break?

[pokin' canadian]

well rachamim18, [EDIT- Removed personal insult]
-Pdx

first of all, how can you say that the method of administration doesn't matter?!?!?!??! people who IV heroin have been known to suffer MUCH worse than those who insufflate. this is WELL known, and before you claim that people who IV probably have a bigger habit; it is not always true. people who IV are making a MUCH more efficience use of their drugs, thus requiring a lower dose, therefore offering evidence that the person IV'ing would use less. also, do you not agree that mode of administration effects how fast/big tolerance builds? come on, you must agree to this, and if you do, then you must realize that it also must effect everything else to do with it, no?

anyways, please get your facts straight, don't just blab shit that you've read on your little dare site which you so faithfully quote. you've had a heroin addiction for 24 years? you take 160mg of meth down from 180? or was it 190? really? you have an addiction THAT big and can say that w/d's aren't as bad as ppl make them, and that they're over in 3 days? 4 max if your a freak? come on buddy, a habit like that you'll be hurtin for a week if not longer unless you do a medically assisted detox w/ naltrexone (not narcan btw.....naltrexone is longer acting and can be swallowed....i guess they don't want detoxing junkie's to be associating with needles ), and if medically helped then you MAY get away with a 3-4 day w/d, but it sucks ballz and is the only way u'll be out of the woods that quick with habits like that. i have a really hard time believing you, it just seems wrong, you can't have gone through w/d's and not think much of them, they're hell

 

[rachamim18]

More verbal diahrreah.

Altitudes: On psychological and emotional issues, I will be the first to offer that it is completely subjective. On physical issues where there has been a great deal of research, I tend to rely on scientific proof. In this case, aside from the things I have personally experienced and seen in others, there is a great amount of work that proves my assertion. I offered the Merck because most people consider that the Bible of physiology [and the chem Merck for chemistry, and so on]. If you feel physical symptoms for a month I would say that you have other issues besides withdrawal.

Papaver: Now you are more authoritative than the Merck? I am not suprised that you would THINK so. Do you really want me to sidetrack this thread with a hundred other sources that say the same? I thought that you would at least reexamine the issue and fade into obscurity in the world of lurkers, as you did after your previous hissy fit.

"All over the internet with my misinfo..." If you say so Papaver. It would be nice though, if you would simply provide ONE piece of peer reviwed material that says you are even half right. I mean, you make alot of talk, but don't do much of anything else. What is the English language saying about "opinions?" The problem with you is that you confuse opinion with fact. To be considered fact, there has to be evidence. Where is yours? I have offered mine...and yet instead of dealing with it you resort to playground histronics.

"Physical withdrawal is nothing..." Please provide the post and thread so that I can show how you lie. If you had actually read anything by me on the subject you will have seen that as time goes by I am more and more scared of going through the experience. I have not only withdrawn from heroin many times, I have also withdrawn from methadone [190 mgs. and 200 mgs., except for the first time which was only 100 mgs.] four times and currently am doing it again. For your authoritative info., I am doing an AMA detox at 10 mgs. every 3 days...so its safe to say that I know just a tad bit about the process. I will say this though, physical withdrawal from opiates/opioids does NOT kill. Even cold turkey from 200 mgs. of methadone will not permanently injur a person.

[Edited for spelling and grammar]

 

[rachamim18]

Canadian bacon...

Pokin: You have been here for what, a couple of weeks if that? Of course you might have lurked for years [I certainly did], but I tend to think otherwise. You feel that Diacetyl and Papaver offer more accurate and valuable info than I do? Good, this is not a popularity contest. This site is a harm reduction site and as such it aims to offer relevant info in place of misinfo and opinion. In that vein, I try and back up any thing I claim to be fact with third party sources where applicable, as in this thread. I would suggest that you do your own homework instead of relying on Papaver, Diacetyl, or even Rachamim. In this issue, if you actually take the time to do the footwork, you will come to a different opinion.

"Mode of administration." "People who i.v. have been known to suffer much worse than those that insufflate." Really? Provide a reference. Let me explain something to you. Overall physiology, the way your body operates, does not change with different modes of administration. If you insufflate a gram, or mainline a gram, it is still excreted in the same manner.Mode of administration WILL effect the way initial onset is experienced, it will effect how a person feels while under the influence, BUT it will NOT effect how your body goes through withdrawal.

"Much more efficient dose, thus requiring less of a substance [to achieve the same overall effect]. Yep, that is true, but what in the world does that have to do with withdrawal?

"Mode of administration effects how rapidly someone will develop tolerance." No, that is not true. How would that ever happen? If you take two people with nothing in their system, with the same or approximate metabolisms, and let one insufflate regularly for a month, and let the other inject the same dosage regularly for that same month...then let both stop cold turkey, who will experience more withdrawal symptoms and who will suffer them the longest? Their withdrawls will last the same amount of time and they will experience indistinguishable [from each other] physical effects.

"DARE site." There you go again confusing yourself. If you actually take the time to read my posts you will see that it is DARE that claims what you, PApaver, and Diacetyl claim!

As for my addiction. Again, I was on 190 mgs. until last Monday. I am currently on 160 but will go down to 150 tomorrow. I am detoxing at a rate of 10 mgs. every 3 days. As for length of my addiction, I first used heroin in June 1982. there are literally thousands of heroin addicts in my neck of the woods [Mott Haven, South Bronx] so that I also get to see how other people have fared. More to the point, I rely on scientific evidence to arrive at my conclusion. Do with it what you will.

Also, my statements are on heroin addiction only, not methadone.

"Narcan, etc." 3 to 4 days [almost always 3] is cold turkey, without any type of meds to soften the blow.

"Not think much of withdrawals." Again, you are confused. I never said that. I said that it only takes 72 hours for physical withdrawal, after which you will have the tolerance of a new user. You really need to reread [if you even did more than glance or skim] my posts.

[Edited for spelling]

 

[lee harvey]

Well, at least some good info is coming out of this pissing contest.

 

[rachamim18]

And...

some bad info as well...but that is the nature of the internet I suppose.

 

[diacetyldeath]

Re: Now the slam dunk...

Forgive me, I tire easily. Remember, I said that I hate pissing contests.

If you kindly take out your Merck and open up to chapter 195, you will find the section entilted "opiate/opioid dependance." In it you will see that it says about heroin withdrawal: "symptoms appear 4 to 6 hours after last usage. Withdrawal symptoms for heroin peak within 36 to 72 hours..." Even being extremely kind and saying that if you were one of the tiny percentage with freakish metabolism, you would still be fine on your 4th day.

PEAK. They PEAK within 72 hours. Do you know what the shape of a bell curve looks like? The peak is hardly the end. Symptoms do not simply drop off and end after their PEAK.

Acute opioid withdrawal lasts 7-10 days for opioids like heroin/morphine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, and the others with similar half-lives and lengths of action. Your Merck seems to agree.

Anyway, if my withdrawal symptoms were psychological or psychosomatic, they should occur when I switch to a partial agonist/mixed antagonist like buprenorphine too, right? I'm still technically withdrawing from the heroin, or at least my delta and kappa receptors are. But I don't. I feel better on day 2.

Method of dose doesn't matter AS LONG AS THE DOSE ADJUSTED PROPORTIONALLY FOR BIOAVAILABILITY. 100mg insufflated and 100mg IV will not affect the user in the same way, since 60mg are absorbed one route and 100mg are absorbed the other route.

If your withdrawals truly last only 3 days, consider yourself lucky and stop trying to crusade.

I'm not going to dignify the rest of your swill with a response, since the people here seem to know what is truth and what is fiction.

Kind regards

 

[Partykid12]

Although I would like to agree with some people on this thread I believe that Rachamim18 is right in this case. Everytime I was addicted to opiates, whether it be heroin, oxy, whatever... the withdrawl only lasted 4 days TOPS. I think the reason people feel bad after the 4 day withdrawl period is because they are weak. I mean your body went through some hell going through the heroin withdrawl, of course it's going to be weak, tired, etc. Psychological withdrawl lasts much longer as well - that's not something that goes away in 4 days and maybe that's what some of you are talking about.

As for the method of use for the opiates: I don't think that it has anything to do with the duration of withdrawl symptoms. First of all I don't think that there are many people who snort 2 grams of heroin a day for over 2 years... usually people start out by snorting and then quickly move up (or down depending on your views ) to injecting. I think that people who inject tend to do more heroin than those who snort - because usually the ones who snort are the ones who are starting out and they do only a couple bags/vials but then they start shooting and start using more. I think it just has to do with the amount of time you have been using but since most shoot it just seems like it is much worse.


Just my $0.02

 

[rachamim18]

Bell Curves...

Diacetyl: Instead of picking and choosing, try reading the actual book. you will see that the vast majority PEAK WITHIN 36 hours. Using first form mathamatics, that tells us that a subject almost always finishes in 72 hours. Very simple really Diacetyl, it took 36 hours to get there, it takes 36 to end. RESULT: 72 hours. Of course, if a person had freakish metabolsim, and was part of the lowest percentile worldwide, they could conceivably suffer for those 3 days, and then get markedly better for the next 3. That is not what you [and Papver] say. You say that a person suffers for up to a week. If a person peaked at 72 hours then they would hardly be suffering on even the 5th day.

Merck does NOT say that heroun withdrawl lasts for 7 to 10 days. in fact, to show how you are lying, you just claimed that it peaked at 72 hours! What kind of curve would allow a peak of 72 hours and 108 additional hours of symptoms!? you do not even make sense.

Then you have the audacity to try and use the issue of half life to prove your case. Were you not the person who expertyl claimed that it had nothing to do with a substance being on one's ssystem but with endorphins? Half life is a term trelated to excretion. Therefore, you have just lost your own argument...even though your statement is again bad info.

Do you even know the half life of heroin? Obviously not. If you did, you would have never mede the argument even if you agreed with me that withdrawl is directly related to serum levels.

"IF your symptoms were psychological or psychosymatic they should persits when you switch to a mixed agonist..." No, not at all. A person can alleviate symptoms by taking a sugar pill...if they believe in that placebo.

The whole philosophy behind bupe is to alleviate the physical symptoms, while leaving an out via the antagonist [subsequent to the inital stage] should psychological addiction persist. Furthermore, what would a person with a "1 gram a day habit" be doing with bupe? Surely you are well awre that it is specifically designed for less than moderate habits?

"Bioavailability, etc." Noone raised that issue. The point made was that should a person insufflate the same dose injected by another, both will undergo very similar withdrawals [assuming similar metabolism of course]. Don't you remember your own argument?

"Consider myself lucky..." I consider myself very average. In fact, as staed, I have never met anyone who has suffered for more than 4 days , and that was only one person. Everyone else says the same as me. My only "crusade" is for accuracy, perhaps you would be well advised to take it up as well.

"Dignifying my swill, yadayada and yada..." See the post after yours please.

 

[diacetyldeath]

Re: Bell Curves...

Diacetyl: Instead of picking and choosing,

I only know my experiences and others'. Since it is clear you choose not to believe me, there is no point to continuing the discussion. You are implying intent from my words where there is none, and continuing that process would simply be counterproductive for both of us.

 

[axl blaze]

in my experience it is safe to say the majority of the symptoms of withdrawal were subsided substantially in four days... HOWEVER perhaps due to my large habit I would feel some certain symptoms (like inability to sleep) for a good 7 days.

it's apples and oranges folks.

 

[rachamim18]

Apples and Oranges...

Not exactly Axl...it is more about accuracy. Physiology is an exact science. In subjective issues like "euphoria" or "rush" it is all about perception. When you talk about physical withdrawal however, it is possible to talk in certainties. People should be offered accurate info.

Anyway, as stated in the beginning, it is all good.

Diacetyl: I appreciate your mature repsonse.