H Tolerance increase after a 3 day break?

[lee harvey]

I've taken a handful of "breaks" over the last year of my habit. this week I gave it a rest for 3 days and when I came back I suddenly found that i needed more for each shot and at shorter intervals. usually a shot will last me 8 hours but suddenly I was needing one every 5 hours or I was practically shitting my pants. Same batch so it's not a qualitative issue. It's been like this for 2 days now. This has never happened before, Is this normal or did I just fuck myself again?

 

[Rosclot]

Do you know for sure that it is the same stuff?

 

[pokin' canadian]

^^^ yea, i'm going to have to agree. there is no physical way that your tolerance could have increased, if you have actually taken a break. if you took a break only from heroin and took other opiates as a replacement, then your tolerance would go up or stay the same, definetly not down, however i dobut it would go up much if at all because H is pretty strong in comparison to many other opiates one might take on a break. if you took a real break, then there is NO way your tolerance went up, chances are it didn't go down either. 3 days isn't much when you're talking about a heroin habit, 3 days will just make u feel like shit until you finally take your next dose, not much point. if you aren't "hooked" yet, i don't know how if you've been doing it for a year, but you're tolerance still wouldn't go down much over only 3 days. i think that for sure your dope isn't as good. maybe the guy you got it from started running lower than he liked, and cut it extra. or maybe he got some new stuff that looks similar but is more cut, you never really know unless he pulls it out of the same bag both times (which i dobut you even saw?)

 

[anthropod]

Any chance of there being a "deficit," so to speak, and a certain amount being "used up" just to reach baseline? And, is three days really long enough to reduce tolerance significantly?

I've heard of a similar phenomenon before with stuff said to be fairly consistent. Don't know whether this could be the case with H, but it seems to be with things that take longer to be metabolized or take awhile to be completely absorbed. Just a theory.

Granted, the implications of this, if so, aren't too great for anyone tapering.

 

[rachamim18]

Answer...

Heroin is excreted within 72 hours [3 days]. therefore, if one were to stop for that period, even after prolonged and regular use, they would be like any other non-tolerant person. tolerance would only increase if they were to use other opiates/opioids during that period or if they were to resume usage with an inferior [per purity] substance. Of course, the author might be looking at it from a psychological viewpoint. Most long term users will tell you that effects change after prolonged usage.

 

[ChemicalSmiles]

Sounds like you got weaker shit my friend. Hit up some raw

-weez

 

[diacetyldeath]

Re: Answer...

Heroin is excreted within 72 hours [3 days]. therefore, if one were to stop for that period, even after prolonged and regular use, they would be like any other non-tolerant person. tolerance would only increase if they were to use other opiates/opioids during that period or if they were to resume usage with an inferior [per purity] substance. Of course, the author might be looking at it from a psychological viewpoint. Most long term users will tell you that effects change after prolonged usage.

This is only true for someone who does not have a long-term opiate use/abuse habit. While heroin is physically out of one's system/body within 72 hours, tolerance is a different animal entirely.

Take a person who has been using heroin daily for one year. He stops taking the heroin. 72 hours later, he will be at the peak of acute withdrawal. Any trace of heroin will have left his system entirely. However, his tolerance, while it has decreased, has not markedly decreased. His brain is used to an external source of opiate agonists, so it has gotten used to producing fewer endorphins to serve this purpose internally.

It takes 7-10 days to finish acute withdrawal, but even then, a person with a lengthy daily habit will not have returned to baseline.

Some people say it takes approximately 30 days to return to baseline from a short-acting opiate such as heroin. Others claim that one has not returned to baseline until he has completed long-term withdrawal, which lasts around 31 weeks. Some people claim that after a lengthy daily opiate habit, the brain is not the same, and can never return to baseline in terms of tolerance.

Regardless, tolerance has no relationship to the amount of heroin currently in the body. Instead, it has more to do with the habits surrounding long term opiate use/abuse.

As to why the person believes he has an INCREASED tolerance after three days, I'm not sure what could be going on. Maybe there's some longer acting opiates in this batch? Someone put methadone in it or something (I couldn't see the point, since methadone is fairly expensive, but I guess it could happen)? My first reaction would be that it was a different batch and is just worse in terms of quality, but apparently it is the same batch. Not sure.

Anyway, be safe.

 

[rachamim18]

Peak of withdrawl...

Diacetly: That is incorrect. Scientifically and subjectively, that is bad info. Generally, even the most acute habit will withdraw in this manner: Day I] Yawning, uneasiness, towards the end of the day, stomach rumblings. Tiredness all day, most sleep a good deal. Day II] Major stomach problems, cannot eat, hot and cold flashes accompanied by major sweats, depression and great anxiety, eyes running, no sleep whatsoever, DayIII] things begin to subside, the worst is over. By the end of the day you are just worn out, but you realize you WILL make it...Day 4 is a relief, you feel like a new person...ready to pick up a bag and go crazy.

Endorphin depletion is not responsbile for either addiction OR withdrawl. It DOES contribute to the psychological component but never the physical. The addict might not be able to achieve as many natural peaks but it has nothing to do with their tolerance to opiates/opioids.

Some substances operate on a resevoir system, methadone is a great example. Heroin does not. Length of habit has no bearing on its excretion. Once it is out of your system, you are good to go.

"Tolerance has nothing to do with serum levels..." WRONG. That is just bad info. However, there IS a definite psychological componentbut it is not the impetus behind anything.

The "7 to 10 days" stuff is the stuff of "DARE" and "MAD." It is not reality. I do not want to be a stick in the mud or spawn a pissing contest but have you ever had a habit? If so, you can honestly say that you were sweating for a week after stopping usage? In 24 years of heroin use/addiction, I have NEVER seen anyone even come close to that. More to the point, I have never seen a single shred of scientific proof that would even suggest such a thing. Of course, if we were talking about methadone...[not to say that I would ever bet any amount of money that anyone would sell a methadone/heroin combo].

 

[diacetyldeath]

Re: Peak of withdrawl...

Diacetly: That is incorrect. Scientifically and subjectively, that is bad info. Generally, even the most acute habit will withdraw in this manner: Day I] Yawning, uneasiness, towards the end of the day, stomach rumblings. Tiredness all day, most sleep a good deal. Day II] Major stomach problems, cannot eat, hot and cold flashes accompanied by major sweats, depression and great anxiety, eyes running, no sleep whatsoever, DayIII] things begin to subside, the worst is over. By the end of the day you are just worn out, but you realize you WILL make it...Day 4 is a relief, you feel like a new person...ready to pick up a bag and go crazy.

Your habits must not have ever been very large. I kicked from a 10 bag/day IV habit and I felt like shit well into day 7, long after the heroin left my system.

Which pretty much invalidates the rest of your post, so I won't bother responding to it. We've simply had different experiences.

 

[diacetyldeath]

Re: Peak of withdrawl...

Endorphin depletion is not responsbile for either addiction OR withdrawl. It DOES contribute to the psychological component but never the physical. The addict might not be able to achieve as many natural peaks but it has nothing to do with their tolerance to opiates/opioids.

This is also simply incorrect. Endorphin depletion is directly responsible for withdrawal. The pain threshold decreases, the sweating, chills/hot flashes, etc. are all due to a lack of natural endorphins/endogynous opiate agonists.

"Tolerance has nothing to do with serum levels..." WRONG. That is just bad info. However, there IS a definite psychological componentbut it is not the impetus behind anything.

If that is indeed a direct quote of mine, I concede that it is incorrect. There is a relationship between tolerance and serum levels, but it is not linear, and it is much more subtle and complex than you are proposing.

The "7 to 10 days" stuff is the stuff of "DARE" and "MAD." It is not reality. I do not want to be a stick in the mud or spawn a pissing contest but have you ever had a habit? If so, you can honestly say that you were sweating for a week after stopping usage? In 24 years of heroin use/addiction, I have NEVER seen anyone even come close to that. More to the point, I have never seen a single shred of scientific proof that would even suggest such a thing. Of course, if we were talking about methadone...[not to say that I would ever bet any amount of money that anyone would sell a methadone/heroin combo].

As I said, I have kicked countless times... From a small, insufflated habit, you're right -- Day 4 I'm good to go. From a large, IV habit? Not a chance. Day 4 is LESS physical pain and LESS other physical symptoms, but still full on lack of motivation/will to do much of anything, all of which is caused by a lack of endogynous opiate agonist action.

I did want to respond to the rest of your post, since I was incorrect with respect to serum levels and tolerance having no relationship, and I did want to make sure I corrected that. My apologies for posting twice.

If you'd like, I can post some sources for you to read over if you are still in a state of shock and disbelief, as your caps and exclamation points indicate. I would suggest that you try to calm down -- life's too short to get worked up over a couple of posts on a forum full of people that you will never meet or with whom you will never interact in a meaningful way.

 

[CreativeRandom]

Funny post, nice info.

 

[ChemicalSmiles]

Re: Re: Peak of withdrawl...

Your habits must not have ever been very large. I kicked from a 10 bag/day IV habit and I felt like shit well into day 7, long after the heroin left my system.

I hear that!

-weez

 

[Dr.groveller]

Re: Peak of withdrawl...

Diacetly: That is incorrect. Scientifically and subjectively, that is bad info. Generally, even the most acute habit will withdraw in this manner: Day I] Yawning, uneasiness, towards the end of the day, stomach rumblings. Tiredness all day, most sleep a good deal. Day II] Major stomach problems, cannot eat, hot and cold flashes accompanied by major sweats, depression and great anxiety, eyes running, no sleep whatsoever, DayIII] things begin to subside, the worst is over. By the end of the day you are just worn out, but you realize you WILL make it...Day 4 is a relief, you feel like a new person...ready to pick up a bag and go crazy.

This is too funny... not to mention completely WRONG. You're correcting someone- diacytal that has lived it. I've lived it. What you describe above is the typical withdrawl from a small, habit. Trust me, it gets a whole lot worse.

I've had acute withdrawls that have lasted a full week after a 2 gram a day IV habit. My last cold turkey kick from a gram a day... I was still puking on day 4. I went and scored that day, and my tolerance, while slightly less than it had been, was still quite large.

So, are you saying I imagined the puking, chills, sweats, shaking, leg tremors on day 6? That's too funny. And post acute withdrawls are due to what exactly? Four months and I still sweat like I'm a faucet, can't sleep more than 3 hours or so a night, I haven't shit right in a long time. You're passing over a lot of unknown's, but verified evidence that withdrawls can last a lot longer than the "72 hour" elimination time quoted for Heroin. Oh yeah, that 72 hours depends on a lot of things that are person specific.

"Tolerance has nothing to do with serum levels..." WRONG. That is just bad info. However, there IS a definite psychological componentbut it is not the impetus behind anything.

Uh... tolerance, and the full mechanism behind are are not exactly completely understood.

The "7 to 10 days" stuff is the stuff of "DARE" and "MAD." It is not reality. I do not want to be a stick in the mud or spawn a pissing contest but have you ever had a habit?

Uh... many... see above. I've kicked more times than I can remember. I've gone through hell on a medical detox, I've quit cold turkey most other tims. I've had kicks like you describe originally from a decent, but nothing too serious smoking habit- I miss those easy kicks. I've had others that damn near killed me- or atleast, I wished I could have died. But you know, I guess I imagined it all.

If so, you can honestly say that you were sweating for a week after stopping usage? In 24 years of heroin use/addiction, I have NEVER seen anyone even come close to that.

Yup, I've lived through it. I picked up my habit 6 years ago- 1/4 of your stated experience. Doesn't have much impact on the fact that I have personally experienced withdrawls that are completely counter to your "stated fact."


doc

 

[rachamim18]

Diacetyl: I really hate pissing contests. As for ,y habit... I am probably one of the most open people to ever post in any forum on BL. Everything from my place of employment to my actual address is available in my many posts...to say nothing of my actualy name [whcih is actually Rachamim]. the point is, everything you would ever want to know about me is here for the taking [and quite a bit more that you would ever want].

For brevity's sake I will repeat alot of my personal info. For those who have heard it all before, please forgive me. I began using heroin in 1982. At my height, I was using 3 to 4 grams of approximately 60% pure heroin. I had a monster habit. I have been on 190 mg.s of methadone since 1994 but am currently in the process of detoxing quite rapidly [as opposed to rapid detox] and am currently at 160. That might also offer you an idea of my habit.

You kicked a bundle a day habit? I wish I had that chip back in the day. I had far worse and received only Clonidine, and still only fel pain until the 3rd day. I have NEVER met a single addict who has ever made the same claim as you. Might you be confusing pyschosymatic with physical? It happens to the best of people.

Diacetyl, I would only offer that you need to brush up on your physiology as well as your addiction theory. Tolerance is not related to endorphin depletion, as stated in my earlier post.

I am glad that you at least concede that your comments about serum levels was incorrect.

You are now implying that mode of administration is somehow related to severity of withdrawl symptoms. This is again bad info. Whether - or - not you insufflated or injected, your body's physiology remains the same. The psychological component is undoubtedly up for discussion...just not duration of physical symptoms.

About posting twice, don't worry about it. I do it alot.

"References?" I would love to. As for "worked up," never. I use exclamatiuons and capitalization as a way to suggest emphasis. There are too many people that look to sites like BL for their only source of life and death info. Although this subject is not a life and death issue per se, addiction can be. It is important that all users and potential users fully understand the ins and outs of it. I don't get angry over a difference of opinion...certainly not with a facelsee entity in cyberspace. I am sorry if you though that but I applaud your effort to maintain civil. that is how all differences of opinion should be.

As for "People youwill never meet." I have already met several people from this site, perhaps I might meet more. That is neither here nor there...it is all about ACCURACY with me.

 

[rachamim18]

Dr. Grovellor...

You have had acute witrhdrawls that lasted a week after a 2 gram a day habit? Funny, I had a bigger habit and mine still faded by the end of day 3. Number 1: I am speaking subjectively as well as scientifically. Dr., mind if I call you by your first name? Dr., how long does heroin last in your system? All detectable traces? IF, as Diacetyl maintains, withdrawl is directly related to endorphin levels and not serum levels, then you MIGHT have a leg to stand on. WAIT! Diacetyl did just admit that he/she was incorrect about serum levels....stlll he/she maintains that withdrawl lasts far longer than 72 hours. You need to look at the issue of "tolerance." You are NOT going to defecate all over yourself over depleted endorhins. you are NOT going to have runny orifices over those same depleted endorphins. Physiology shows us this. Endorphins have to do moods and the mechanism of pain [which could lead to alot of PERCEIVED pain during withdrawal, but not diahrreah, etc.], but not tolerance [of a paticular substance].

"IS Rachamim saying that you imagined your withdrawl pains on day 6?" YEP, I am. The mind is an amazing thing Dr.

Your sweating can be attributed to any number of things. Your lack of sleep could certainly be psychogical. When we use a substance for a prolonged period their are alot learned behaviors that go hand in hand with it. In prison I knew a young man who would sweat and get stomach "butterflies" everytime he heard or saw a match being striked. He associated matches being struck with cokking up his heroin. RITUALIZED BEHAVIOR.

"Tolerance is not completely understood." Correct, as I believe I have stated on many occasions here...probably even within this very thread. In any event, there ARE SOME things that ARE known for sure.

"Imagined it all..." Although the question was not directed to you... People can imagine alot of things. As I have gotten older [38 now] I have become more and more terrified of going cold turkey. I should not be as I have done it umpteenth times. However, the mind is an amazing instrument. There are people that can will themselves to die, as in people that have become convinced that they are being cursed, etc. There are also people that can withstand incredible pain. Yet, you expect everyone reading this to believe that it is impossible for you to have imagined being sick days after any and all heroin has left your body?

A fine example of that would be your related statement that " [some detoxes] damn near killed me." Are you suggesting that a person coul;d actually die from a heroin detox? Benzos? Yep! Alcohol? Yep! Opiates? NOPE!

Here is a hint Dr.: "Facts" have nothing to do with opinion or subjective experience. "Facts" are the product of scientific examination. Not my 24 year habit, not your 6 year habit [damn I am getting old!].

 

[CreativeRandom]

Ooooo burn

 

[rachamim18]

Now the slam dunk...

Forgive me, I tire easily. Remember, I said that I hate pissing contests.

If you kindly take out your Merck and open up to chapter 195, you will find the section entilted "opiate/opioid dependance." In it you will see that it says about heroin withdrawal: "symptoms appear 4 to 6 hours after last usage. Withdrawal symptoms for heroin peak within 36 to 72 hours..." Even being extremely kind and saying that if you were one of the tiny percentage with freakish metabolism, you would still be fine on your 4th day.

 

[altitudes]

Why can't you guys agree that it just depends on the person(as well as length of habit and route of administration)? I've seen plenty of people with LONG withdrawls but I've also seen people kick like it's nothing. It always varies for me, I've wound up in the hospital before due to WD's, but other times its a piece of cake. I do know that once I kick, I sweat for at least a month while the other symptoms subside in 3-6 days.

The point is, there is no set out timetable for WD's that everyones body follows. Everyone is different.

 

[PapaverPrisoner]

Re: Peak of withdrawl...

....The "7 to 10 days" stuff is the stuff of "DARE" and "MAD." It is not reality. I do not want to be a stick in the mud or spawn a pissing contest but have you ever had a habit? If so, you can honestly say that you were sweating for a week after stopping usage? In 24 years of heroin use/addiction, I have NEVER seen anyone even come close to that

Are you all over Bluelight with your misinformation ? The statement above is fantastic in it's ignorance - just the way you would understand things if you had only read about heroin addiction. Because one of the great agonies about opiate addiction, is that the heroin 5-days detox is a first-year-only happening. For every year and every WD it will get more and more horrible. Sweating for a week?????? Soaking wet every night for months is nothing unusual. The horrible legache often goes on for 2-3 weeks, driving you almost insane - it used to be at most 3 days in the beginning...

I saw that one of your statements was that "physical WD is nothing" or something similar. If you ever had one you would never say such a thing...

 

[lee harvey]

Interesting. I don't know who to believe but I can attest to feeling like shit for well beyond 72 hours.

On my strange tolerance situation: After 3 days of use my tolerance was right back to where it was before the 3 day break. I think what happened was my brain had to reacclimate to being soaked in opiate. then my tolerane equalized and leveled out again. I can only describe it as my tolerance is based on my opiate tank being full all the time. When I took the 3-day break, it totally emptied my opiate tank and the tank needed to be filled up again to the top before I got back to my standard tolerance.