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God given rights. Do you really have any?

Gnostic Bishop said:
God given rights. Do you really have any?
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Do you have any real god given rights, or are god given rights just a feel-good lie that we tell ourselves we have so as to ignore that we have none?
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I think we should have no rights whatsoever and that all aspects of our existence should be specified and determined by him. By Snoopy I mean. Or Beastman. Fuck knows.
 
Deru said:
It's simply really, religion was what was used to govern human behavior prior to most governments. Once governments started making laws, they had to incorporate religion at the time to create the bridge between the two for the people at the time. Now it's mostly laws that govern our behavior - which was the inevitable process.

Laws or religion, doesn't matter much, different means to the same end.
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We mostly had feudal societies before, and animistic religions. Technically there are still tribal groups and they're often protected by a modern government

Religion doesn't protect anyone by itself. It's the way of life, like tribalism that does
 
Gormur said:
Religion doesn't protect anyone by itself. It's the way of life, like tribalism that does.
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Neither do laws by themself, though.

It's only when other homo sapiens agree to abide by them does it work.

This is for any social construct. They don't exist outside of the collective whole of our minds.
 
Deru said:
Neither do laws by themself, though.

It's only when other homo sapiens agree to abide by them does it work.

This is for any social construct. They don't exist outside of the collective whole of our minds.
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Society is built on laws though. I think what I argue is when it's claimed that values, probably religious ones form and keep a society together. This is faulty thinking because it doesn't take into account peoples' surroundings or individuality which shape a community as well
 
Gormur said:
I think what I argue is when it's claimed that values, probably religious ones form and keep a society together.
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But that's exactly it, they did early on (many, many, many years ago). Current society built upon those values and created governments with constitutional rights and laws and everything else.

It was all meant to keep a society together.

Actually, further and more simply put, it was meant to make you trust a random person you don't know. That's what separates us from other animals - no other animals have the ability to trust and build friendships, at the most extreme, of 150 people.

There had to be a mechanism to be able to trust smaller groups of people unknown to your own - and that mechanism early on was religion.

If more than 150 could agree on religion, now that created the bridge to what would otherwise be every other species built in limitations - and allowed us to create civilizations.

Look at wolves, for example, they can't handle anywhere close to 150. Normally they max out around 10. They have no mechanism to trust other wolves outside of their pack.

If you're trying to compare this to the society you see today, then religion plays a much smaller role today. Laws have evolved from that early mechanism, so of course, today religion doesn't uphold those values as much anymore.

They are more of a supplement to laws, or a reminder of what once was.
 
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How could religion affect a group of living humans if they're not religious?

After all, religion isn't an animated thing; note how I mentioned animism before, but traditional religions come from written words and nobody knew how to write at first, so it was orally transmitted information. That requires a history of human presence

Animism is based on noticing and worshiping things related to nature that are living, not so much abstract ideas

I fail to see how you get religion out of thin air. Unless you're proposing that it was transmitted directly from a sage to everybody at the same time but as for me I'll pass on that idea as there's no evidence either way
 
Gormur said:
I fail to see how you get religion out of thin air
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You don't. As with literally every social construct, someone needs to say it to multiple people - and then those people need to accept it.

You don't even need everyone to accept it.

Anyone that accepts it is part of the social construct - and if that social construct helps the species survival - then the people who didn't accept will, to some form, accept it if they want to benefits of the social construct.

If you don't want to be part of it, that's fine. You can live like every other animal on this planet does, but that can be a brutal way to live compared to the comforts our constructs provide us.

Literally nothing happens out of thin air when it comes to our social constructs. We make them. That's why our species went from middle of the food chain to the top.

Is your issue with religion the problem with the spiritual or religious portion of it? Because that is completely irrelevant. If you can agree a law is real (it's not physically real, it only is real in our minds) then you, by extension, have to agree religion as a means to govern human behavior is real as well.

Neither of them are physically real - you, nor any living being, can touch a law, a right or a religion. They are myths homo sapiens came up with to govern behavior and ensure our species' survival.

Back when our biggest concern was getting our next meal and running from being eaten alive, someone at some point realized, "Hey! If that other group of homo sapiens over there helps our group we can kill these bigger animals, have more food and more protection!"

And thus, the social construct was born. It was a way to convince a group of unknown homo sapiens to work with your group and other groups, together, because we were probably being eaten alive everyday at that point. The people who accepted the social construct had a better chance of survival, and evolution takes care of the rest.

Who knows what early social constructs were like, they were probably full of whatever crazy ideas we could think of because we had no clue how anything worked. So a mystical God was pretty easy for everyone to believe at the time

Look at Indian tribes and their beliefs, as an example.

Also, don't forget, we weren't always the only species of the genus homo around. So there was fighting between different species of the homo genus as well - and inbreeding too. 3 to 4 percent of homo sapiens DNA in the Asia region is still Neanderthal DNA.
 
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I don't buy the idea that religion was ever used as a survival mechanism. It's after all a conscious, intellectual endeavor to be religious. It's like when we're born, we're irreligious. So that point is moot in my opinion

All I'm saying is you don't get something from nothing. I don't have a take on it per se because how? I follow the footprints, the evidence. That's what interests me, not so much others' opinions on what could've been and now is
 
Gormur said:
I don't buy the idea that religion was ever used as a survival mechanism. It's after all a conscious, intellectual endeavor to be religious. It's like when we're born, we're irreligious. So that point is moot in my opinion

All I'm saying is you don't get something from nothing. I don't have a take on it per se because how? I follow the footprints, the evidence. That's what interests me, not so much others' opinions on what could've been and now is
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You do realize this is evolutionary theory, right? In regards to what religion was used as. We weren't born as irlaws either.

This is following the footprints and the evidence.

By no means take my word for it, I'm just explaining the widely held views in regards to how human beings came to be - by all means, research it yourself. This is not just my opinion, alone.
 
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Ah okay we're talking about two different things. No I don't believe in evolution. I just study what I know
 
In other words Its axiomatic that to love your neighbor as yourself is to love God with all your heart.
 
Gormur said:
Rights only exist when you exercise them. It's like religion. You only have religion if you practise

As soon as you speak, you make promises
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Exercise them, yes, but you also have to protect the rights of others. Tat is your first duty as a citizen.

If we do not all protect each others rights, we will lose them.

Regards
DL
 
Branggen said:
The right to experience life, yea it may be a temporary right (or maybe we re incarnate) but something is better than nothing
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Not when the something is a deceptive joke given to fool people.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, is great, --- as long as what makes you happy has been approved by committees and not by your free self.

Regards
DL.
 
novaveritas said:
You have that backwards, rights are not granted by any government, though they can be infringed by governments.

God has nothing to do with it.

The duty to ensure that rights are maintained are the responsibility of you, me and everyone. If you don't fight to maintain your rights then you are failing in your duty.
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I agree with your last.

If your rights are not being given by your government, who is defending the constitution in the courts?

Who gave you any rights if not a government?

Regards
DL,
 
Foreigner said:
It's not so abstract, idealistic, or even spiritual. The basis of the argument is formed on the historical knowledge of what humans will and won't tolerate, and that in turn is based on our nature itself. So yes, "nature" determines it, but not as some third party. It's enacted by the living who are compelled to prop up or tear down certain virtues.

Put another way... if you take away human rights, people will eventually rebel. People will not tolerate certain levels of oppression forever. Most oppression is tolerated because a status quo is being maintained. In other words, it's convenient for now, or the benefits outweigh the downsides. No matter how complex a human system of oppression is, people will outsmart it because they have inherent drives to do so.

Our rights and our nature are pretty much synonymous.
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What rights do you see as coming out of nature?

Regards
DL
 
Deru said:
The only right, as I see it, is the same right that every species on this planet has: a shot to reproduce and to pass on your genes in an attempt to keep your species alive. In other words, you have a right to try to survive.

If we're talking about rights in societal constructs only unique to homo sapiens, then we are given the rights that each individual is afforded by the country you are born into - but that deals with the rights we have in a social construct and only governs homo sapiens.

I'm not sure how to respond to "God given", so I'll just leave that be.



That's correct, religion was used early on to control human behavior. Nowadays, we have laws and religion, among other social constructs (both of them are not physically real - they are just something our species agrees upon and thus controls our behavior). Human beings have used religion of some sort for over 10,000 years for this exact purpose. It may sound nefarious, but it's really not. It allowed us to build societies and achieve something no other species has been able to.

Without it, we would be nothing more than animals trying not to be eaten alive every day for the many other animals that could easily kill and eat us.
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Inquisitions and Jihads.

Need I say more about the immoral mainstream fascist religions?

Regards
DL
 
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