Gnostic Christianity MEGATHREAD

[RDP89]

What proof or evidence of God do you need? I know you wont answer that, but the question is there if you want to try..



Ok, so you admit there are things in the bible that we can prove empirically. Just so everyone is clear you are in fact backpeddling on your original statement where you said, and I quote..."I simply stated the fact that there isn't any empirical evidence supporting the Bible's version of things."

I like how you word everything to make it seem like its something its not. For example, you say "I realize 'some' of the people in the bible existed' when in reality, you cant show me one person in the bible who didnt exist, you literally have nothing to offer the class, but you come in here making absolutist statements about stuff you have absolutely no clue about.

I bet you havent even studied out the evidence for creation, and if you said you did that would be interesting because I would love pick your brain.. See, I used to take the biased mainstream 'science only' approach, but then I started looking at other evidence, just to make sure I wasnt missing something.. I went back to the debates where I wrote off the Christian proponents even before the debate began and started listening to what they were saying.. You have a one sided view because youve only investigated one side, but you lack a complete picture because you feel somehow that science and God are mutually exclusive, when that is a lie.. Science gets things wrong all the time, and it changes to adapt.. God is never wrong, God is never changing and truth is something that isnt malleable..

Nah, your issue isnt that you want evidence you arent willing to search out the evidence we already have, thats just intellectual laziness, bias and dogma at its finest.

You wanna go after people for their beliefs but you cant even support the beliefs you have yourself.

Once again, where is this supposed "evidence" of creation? It doesn't exist. What proof or evidence of God do I need?? Well how about any at all, that would be great for a start.

 

[AddictRecon]

You attack the messenger and ignore the message because you know you cannot refute what I put.
DL

You havent attempted to answer anything Ive said, just gave a few anecdotal responses that dont clear anything up.. This is my experience with gnostics, they never actually attempt to answer for what they claim..

 

[AddictRecon]

So you are such a slug that you have yet to accomplish anything on your own.

Attacking my character because you cant defend your views isnt an answer

And you are proud of that. Wow.

Im thankful, please dont misquote me or put words in my mouth.

Why did your omnipotent all knowing God create what he knew would rebel against him?

This is a question atheists ask.. the fact you are asking it while claiming knowledge disquised in the veneer of Christiantiy is rather telling.. God created us out of the abundance of His love. If you deny sentient creatures have a will of their own, including the ability to reject the very God that created us, then you are struggling with questions that tell me you know nothing of our theology, yet attempt to criticize it.

Do you really think that Satan would try to change the mind of a God which scriptures say never changes his mind?

Satan couldnt change the mind of God, thats part of why he was deluded with himself. Satan was Gods most anointed angel, yet he sinned.. God knew this would happen, which is why the redemptive plan for grace and salvation through Christ was also foreknown by God, its not something God was surprised by. God is omniscient, there is nothing that can be known that God doesnt know.

Search the scritpures, the answers you seek are there.

Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
Eze 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
Eze 28:18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
Eze 28:19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever.”

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms,

You follow Yahweh. Let's see if his morals are God-like or Satan-like, --- and whose morals you follow.
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs youhave done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them,--- is immoral. Right?

Jesus Christ is YHWH incarnate

Exo_3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Joh_8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”


Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

Joh_10:30 I and the Father are one.”


Joh_14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So tell us please, who is more likely to see justice in the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty? God or Satan?

The only person you are claiming God punished who was innocent was Jesus Christ, but Christ Himself is God incarnate, His will is Gods will, so that the redemptive plan of salvation from sin would be accomplished.

Isa 53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

So yes, satan, the father of lies, the adversary, the murderer, will meet justice when the appointed time comes.

That was my bad spelling/grammar. You are not a genocidal God, but scriptures say that you are to emulate God which is why you support a genocidal God. Right?

We imitate what is good, God is good. 3Jo 1:11

You are quite a literal reader. Should you really trust a book that, if read literally, forces you to believe in talking serpents and donkeys and a water walking God?

I understand its your job to dissuade me from the living Word of God, but its not going to work, and yes, because I trust fully in Christ, I trust His written Word as well.. Serpent is one of many metaphors for satan, and satan in fact can speak. Read Isaiah above if you are still confused as to who he is. Do I believe in talking donkeys? no, did God open the mouth of a donkey and make it speak to rebuke Balaam? yes.. All things were created by Jesus Christ, the Word, who is God.. Walking on water really is a trivial matter, not that impressive compared to the more impressive act of creation.


Please dont parade yourself around these forums pretending to be some follower of Christ, you simply cherry pick what you like about Christ and throw away the rest. Gnosticism has been, is and always will be antithetical to Christianity, its new age philosophy trying to be like Christianity without the submission to the will of our Creator, who is Jesus Christ, God incarnate, and the everlasting Father.

 

[AddictRecon]

Once again, where is this supposed "evidence" of creation? It doesn't exist. What proof or evidence of God do I need?? Well how about any at all, that would be great for a start.

Or you reject the evidence for what it is, writing it off as something other than evidence in order to keep yourself from having to confront it?

I could give you the bible as evidence, but you would say that isnt evidence, so that wont work for you. I personally think there are philosophical arguments that are good evidence, like the Kalam cosmological argument, though I still think that could be simplified.

Ill be up front with you, the reason I asked you what evidence for God would suffice for you is because I know you cant answer that question without shooting yourself in the foot.. The reality is that if you start telling me what it would take to convince you, you would have to end the conversation with me because you would realize that what you are looking for only God himself can give you, making discourse with me pointless.. I am not God, I am not His event coordinator, if you want answers, do like I did and start a dialogue with Him.

If God has distanced Himself from you, I dont have the ability to force belief on you, God is far greater than I am, and I dont have the ability to usurp Him, or His decisions.

 

[RDP89]

Or you reject the evidence for what it is, writing it off as something other than evidence in order to keep yourself from having to confront it?

I could give you the bible as evidence, but you would say that isnt evidence, so that wont work for you. I personally think there are philosophical arguments that are good evidence, like the Kalam cosmological argument, though I still think that could be simplified.

Ill be up front with you, the reason I asked you what evidence for God would suffice for you is because I know you cant answer that question without shooting yourself in the foot.. The reality is that if you start telling me what it would take to convince you, you would have to end the conversation with me because you would realize that what you are looking for only God himself can give you, making discourse with me pointless.. I am not God, I am not His event coordinator, if you want answers, do like I did and start a dialogue with Him.

If God has distanced Himself from you, I dont have the ability to force belief on you, God is far greater than I am, and I dont have the ability to usurp Him, or His decisions.

Yeah, I don't think you're familiar with what "evidence" means. Why the fuck wouldn't this god show herself? I mean come on, is that so fucking hard for an omnipotent, omniscient being?

 

[AddictRecon]

Yeah, I don't think you're familiar with what "evidence" means

Attacking my ability to reconcile what evidence means doesnt make your position correct, it just shows me you reject the evidence I am willing to share before I have even done so.

But if it helps, Ill give you the definition of evidence that I subscribe to, because as a philosopher, of the many positions one could take, I am a staunch evidentialist, meaning I will review any evidence without bias and form my opinions after I review it. I am not a presuppositionalist and I tend to argue against that philosophy.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Why the ___ wouldn't this God show Himself? I mean come on, is that so _____ hard for an omnipotent, omniscient being?

He did, they nailed Him to a cross..



Why are you on defense? You think it bothers me that someone is a muslim, or Hindu? Why get upset simply because you dont believe what I believe? Relax a bit, sheesh.. If you cant have a rational discussion without getting emotional, then I can assure you I simply wont engage with you, if you are however interested in polite discourse, then Ill spend as much time discussing this with you as you want. Fair?

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Once again, where is this supposed "evidence" of creation? It doesn't exist. What proof or evidence of God do I need?? Well how about any at all, that would be great for a start.

You are talking to a guy who cannot form a decent apology for his God. That is quite apparent from his deflections into the supernatural where he can hide his ignorance and lack of logic, reason and especially his poor morals that have him adoring a genocidal son murdering God.

To be like him, you -----



Faith, as our friend has, is the faith of fools.

That is why he cannot argue or justify his beliefs.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

You havent attempted to answer anything Ive said, just gave a few anecdotal responses that dont clear anything up.. This is my experience with gnostics, they never actually attempt to answer for what they claim..

This from you who deflects and hides behind the supernatural.

Go suck up to your genocidal son murdering God and leave moral people to follow more moral avenues and Gods.

Regards
DL

 

[AddictRecon]

This from you who deflects and hides behind the supernatural.

Go suck up to your genocidal son murdering God and leave moral people to follow more moral avenues and Gods.

Regards
DL

Why are you so upset? Instead of getting emotional and throwing a tantrum, back up your claims..

 

[AddictRecon]

That is why he cannot argue or justify his beliefs.

Regards
DL

I just laid out a rather concise, cited argument that you apparently wont touch, lets face it, if you had a rebuttal, you would have submitted it.

Your faith is far greater than mine, at least I have something to rest my faith on, yours is entirely in your head, its why gnosticism is widely regarded as nonsense, you guys never actually put up a defense of your beliefs, just subjective ramblings..

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

I just laid out a rather concise, cited argument that you apparently wont touch, lets face it, if you had a rebuttal, you would have submitted it.

Your faith is far greater than mine, at least I have something to rest my faith on, yours is entirely in your head, its why gnosticism is widely regarded as nonsense, you guys never actually put up a defense of your beliefs, just subjective ramblings..

This from someone who believes in talking serpents and donkeys and who runs for the hills the moment morality is mentioned.

How droll.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Why are you so upset? Instead of getting emotional and throwing a tantrum, back up your claims..

If you ever want an honest chat without introducing all your fantasy garbage, I am here for you.


You will have to start explaining why you adore a genocidal son murdering God first though.

Regards
DL

 

[AddictRecon]

If you ever want an honest chat without introducing all your fantasy garbage, I am here for you.


You will have to start explaining why you adore a genocidal son murdering God first though.

Regards
DL

Im a bible believing Christian, if thats a problem for you then we are most likely at an impasse.

The bible is resolute on the matter, and if you dont like that, then your qualms are with the Bible, not its adherents.


Youve literally offered nothing to challenge it, which is worse than a concession, you forfeit the discussion entirely..

 

[AddictRecon]

This from someone who believes in talking serpents and donkeys and who runs for the hills the moment morality is mentioned.

How droll.

Regards
DL

Regardless of my beliefs, you still havent presented a counter argument, in fact, you keep making my argument about me instead of addressing the argument, its cowardly in my opinion.

Im perfectly content with my beliefs, at least I can defend them. Its better than what you are doing, which is cherry picking the bible and then disagreeing with the very texts you are claiming to get your information from.. Your position is incoherent and self contradictory at best, and utter nonsense at worst.

 

[AddictRecon]

who runs for the hills the moment morality is mentioned.

I ground my morality in the Jesus Christ of the bible, not the false christ you paint, cherry picking aspects you want and discarding the rest.

The bible resolutely teaches that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, a subject you cant argue because its resolutely supported with scripture.


You arent omniscient, nor could you be, you are the created, not the creator, lower than God.

True knowledge comes from the acceptance of this.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Regardless of my beliefs, you still havent presented a counter argument, in fact, you keep making my argument about me instead of addressing the argument, its cowardly in my opinion.

Im perfectly content with my beliefs, at least I can defend them. Its better than what you are doing, which is cherry picking the bible and then disagreeing with the very texts you are claiming to get your information from.. Your position is incoherent and self contradictory at best, and utter nonsense at worst.

I know you are content to follow a genocidal son murdering prick of a God.

As to the rest, it is un-evidenced as you do not show the quote you are talking about or the argument against it.

IOW, you are a piss poor apologist.

I ground my morality in the Jesus Christ of the bible, not the false christ you paint, cherry picking aspects you want and discarding the rest.

The bible resolutely teaches that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, a subject you cant argue because its resolutely supported with scripture.


You arent omniscient, nor could you be, you are the created, not the creator, lower than God.

True knowledge comes from the acceptance of this.

Tell us, did Jesus say he came to serve or be served?

Does scriptures say that God does not change or that he can change?

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

You will have to start explaining why you adore a genocidal son murdering God first though.

Regards
DL

 

[AddictRecon]

You will have to start explaining why you adore a genocidal son murdering God first though.

Regards
DL

Your premise begins with an assertion, namely that you think I believe God is a 'genocidal son murdering God'.. The only way to respond to that is if, and only if I though God was in fact a 'genocidal son murdering God', which of course I do not.

God did not murder His son, as that would mean Christs death was not in fact meant to save mankind, but rather to serve Gods selfish needs, which I obviously reject because its just bad theology and no where taught in scripture.


Your argument is the very definition of attacking a strawman, you are intently and purposely misrepresenting my position in order to attack it. There is nothing to defend because you refuse to acknowledge what I actually believe, and instead are creating a fictitious narrative and then attacking that. A narrative that I do not subscribe to.

 

[AddictRecon]

I know you are content to follow a genocidal son murdering prick of a God.
As to the rest, it is un-evidenced as you do not show the quote you are talking about or the argument against it.
IOW, you are a piss poor apologist.

Why do you keep misrepresenting my position with vacuous assertions and then attack the misrepresentation youve fabricated? Im tempted to simply report you as you are violating the principles of this forum.

The basis for my theological position is scripture, but when I cite it, you refuse to provide a valid counter argument and instead attack me with insults, attack my character and name calling, again, something I am tempted to report you for.

Tell us, did Jesus say he came to serve or be served?

Does scriptures say that God does not change or that he can change?

Regards
DL

Jesus came to serve, this is written, but this is also in the context of His incarnation in the flesh, Jesus is no longer incarnated in the flesh, He sits at the throne of God, in the Spirit. It was the entire point of His ministry, something you conveniently leave out of your argument. You give half facts and cherry pick what you want to support your position, but refuse to acknowledge the entire body of facts.

God does not change, His incarnation was forknown, something scripture resolutely teaches and something that you refuse to acknowledge, even in the face of irrefutable evidence.

Im not here to prove anything, Im sharing my understanding, but you wont even engage the subject, rather you are throwing a fit, resorting to name calling and generally being an unkind person in general.

If you cant handle someone challenging your position, you are in the wrong place.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

God does not change, .

That is all I asked and not your delusional follow through.

Now.

That being the case, what makes you think God/Jesus would change from servant to a master who demands that we serve him and follow his commandments?

Regards
DL