AddictRecon
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2017
- Messages
- 199
I would argue that Jesus is not the way.
For now.
I would argue that Jesus is not the way.
Religion is personal and if God is not willing to get personal then he is not worthy of us.
That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity because it does speak to the personal of man's Godhood.
If we, gods creation, are unworthy of him, why is that our fault? I make music but if I make a shit tune, I don't blame the shit tune.
Nice response, exactly why I don't bother trying to have civil discussions with religious people.
Personally, I've little interest in rephrasing my argument just so you'll deign to answer me. You could just answer my original question and ignore my analogy. Why does god blame His creations for their flaws?
God created us with an innate, intrinsic knowledge of right and wrong.
Without God, there is no foundation for right and wrong, which is why people invest so much time in convincing themselves God doesnt exist, so they can do as they please.
I'll have to stop you there. What makes you think this?
It is hard for me to imagine that a baby has the capacity to steal when a baby does not understand that an object it can no longer see still exists. It does not really have the ability to recognise ownership of objects.
in the face of the overwhelming probability that the Christian god does not exist
Which system? American? or the Muslims? Or perhaps the countries in Africa?To the contrary, from my perspective the fact that we have a system of morality
Ah so you agree, that we as humans can relate to how we want to be treated, thus allowing us the knowledge of our own morality to justify our actions and how we treat others.For me, I do not do things I find immoral because that is how I expect others to act
Didn't read any of it, you're much too abrasive to waste time on.
^Why place yourself below? Curious.
As above...
Do you think the strong should serve the needs of the weak? Or do you think the weak should serve the strong?
Regards
DL
Christ said he came to serve, not to be served
After reading the bible, I dont see how God is limited by anything accept logic itself, which I feel exists because God exists.
You do not see how because you have swallowed a lot of B.S. thanks to your feelings, instead of your intellect.
Go back and think like the ancients did and as Jesus would advise. Seek God and stop believing B.S. said of him by those who have no way of knowing anything about God.
http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
I seems more like men are forming questions about God as if God is limited by the same things humans are, but there is a major difference between men on earth, and God.
AddictRecon;14086578[QUOTE said:]Exactly, God can only do what is logically possible for God to do, for example, God couldnt cease to exist, and exist at the same time[/QUOTE
Explain to us then how Jesus could die a real true death and then return?
You say God is logical. Put logic on that bare bone.
a]e, if that were possible, nothing could be true. Its tantamount to philosophical absurdity. Another example in the bible says God cannot lie, meaning that God cannot propose something that is outright not true,
Selective reading I see. Your God is the Father of lies.
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth ofthese thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth ofthese thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord havedeceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believea lie.
Thessalonians 2:11
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. - Jeremiah 20:7
To me, God’s worse lie was toAdam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then renegedand in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.
That pesky God sure works in mysterious ways.
nd then pass it off as true, this is a violation of logic as it would require an attribute of God to be self contradictory which isnt an attribute that is logically possible for God to possess.
Yet scriptures and Christians call God good, when it is obvious that any God who uses genocide and kills when he could take the moralhigh ground and cure is definitely not a good God.
The only limitations God has is that God cannot sin,
Is genocide not a sin in your view?
His very existence necessitates this ontologically speaking, but then that isnt a 'limitation' but a measure of His perfection, maximal greatness. God cannot be "not perfect" where as we can, and in fact arent, moreover, we do things every day to prove we arent perfect.
If genocide is a trait of perfection, would you say that Hitler was more perfect tyhan most of us who recognize the genocide is what a satanic God would use and not a good God?
We couldnt even know we arent perfect without a standard of perfection, which is God.
Would a perfect God use genocide or have his son needlessly murdered?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg
It truly is amazing to think about and Im so thankful for my existence to even be aware of these fundamental truths, truths that are often overlooked, incidentally, by people with 'lack of knowledge'..
Christ is righteous I have no doubt, and I believe in the power of Christ consciousness to transform the world for the better.
I agree but you have to cherry pick as most of what Jesus preached, the Roman created Jesus that is, has a lot of immoral tenets.
I do not mind the esoteric mystical Jesus though.
If I have to identify with one of the world's major religions I choose Christianity to remain true to my heritage, baptism and teachings. The thing is though I love entertaining all possibilities because there is so much mystery.
Only to the unenlightened.
That and a dark underside of the church has existed for a long time, and man's corruption has made its way through 'The Word' in many ways. You are right; many Christians do not apply Christ's teaching which is a crying shame and one reason why I don't actively identify as Christian, other reasons are the church as a corrupt institution of Man. The whole thing has a murkiness, and I seek clarity. I attended catholic high school and was quickly taught a contextual interpretation of the bible, so I don't take scripture as 100% literal truth. Why didn't the editors of the bible or just lay the word out plain as day to not make any room for interpretation? Why has the modern day bible eliminated some of the most powerful and empowering messages of the original bible? (Gnositicm is my most closely aligned denomination because it seeks to restore these repressed teachings) My answer is because the church did not want the peasants to know the whole story. Keep it simple to keep the masses more easily controlled, keep telling them to give their riches to the church or thou shalt not enter the kingdom of heaven, stuff like that I can go on and on.
A fair description of the corrupted church. They have lied from the beginning.
But I appreciate your comments, and you are correct, if God is one who is omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent , it is hard to see how God could be any less than perfect.
I think I may have set the wrong precedent for this conversation, and while I do have reservations about the Church, to write it off because it has some bad adherents is tantamount to cheating yourself of the health benefits of going to the gym because there are people there who are out of shape, it just isnt a rational approach.
I disagree.
Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed intointolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grownthemselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoralways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works anddeeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as hispeople, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudlycontinuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation.
If you support Christianity in any way you are showing support for homophobia, misogyny and intolerance.
I havent abstained from going to Church, or working with other Christians, rather I try to keep true to teachings of Christ, and while many Christians may be misrepresenting Christ, I take that as an opportunity to share with them what Christ has done in my life in hopes they turn from bankrupt doctrinal views, or bickering over who has the best translation of the bible, it simply isnt the crux of the problem, yet they make it out that way.
Yes and that is what prevents them from looking at scriptures from a moral POV so that they can forgive their God for the same infraction that they would condemn men for. Like genocide and having a son needlessly murdered.
Im not really on board with Gnosticism as a sect or belief system, as I find it antithetical to Christs teachings.
I do not and see myself quoting Jesus more than many Christians.
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...-Gnostic-Christian-way-Not-Christianity’s-way
Spiritual enlightenment, or having the 'mind of Christ', as it is written, is only attainable from a place of humility, perhaps one of mans greatest struggles and that only happens with the help of God, we simply cannot do it on our own.
Since God does not interfere with our free will, so Christians tell me, then he is not allowed to help.
As to your notions of humility. Garbage.
Gnostic Christian humility is not why early Christians tried to decimate us all and burn all of our scriptures. It was Christian egotistically trying to claim their God as the true God, or lack of humility, that had them kill us for our better ideology which Christianity could not refute then or now.
The last thing a Gnostic Christian wants is to have humility, as that would show we are no better than the Christians who think that a good trait, while we think it just shows someone who lacks confidence in what he is talking about.
We think very highly of ourselves which clouds our ability to see Gods glory,
Yes because there is no glory in being a genocidal son murdering God.
Tell us about how genocide deserves glory.
and this leads to pride, something more in common with satan,
Did Satan order us to not put anyone above her?
God did. W
Who is shown as the most prideful in scriptures if not God?
who attempted to exalt himself above God ,
She was in heaven and you were not, but do you see an immoral tyrant like God is said to be to be worthy of you?
Would you like to live in a tyranny here on earth under a God who is a genocidal tyrant?
Remember that even the 1/3 of all angels sided with Satan.
Seek the Lord while He may be found, this is what is written. It is also written that if you draw near to the Lord, He will draw near to you, but if that is true, then conversely, through sin against God, you are forcing God to distance himself from you, these are fundamental truths you can make an equitable investment in.
Wow. I can force an Omni-present God to restrict where he will go.
Thanks for pointing out how man can manipulate your God.
My approach to counteracting bad knowledge isnt to finger point, or tell someone they are wrong, but rather explain why God is right, the rest comes on its own.
So you do not follow the bibles wise teaching shown here? Is that because you do not love your fellow man enough to correct him?
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; evenas a father the son in whom he delighteth.
I look forward to you showing how God is right to kill so many so often in scriptures, even innocent children and babies.
True knowledge, or 'gnosticism' begins with humility and a reverence for God,
Eh. No.
Believe it or not, apotheosis is generated by a love generated hate for corrupt religions and governments.
OHe will sort out the rest from my experience.
If you see a supernatural God at work, then you are delusional.
our wisdom is foolishness with God,
This is an outright lie as God directs us to use what wisdom we have to test all things.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what isgood.
which is why we should seek His knowledge, and His wisdom, and be content with what Hes willing to impart, ever so graciously I might add.
Hope that makes sense.
I get the feeling that as you see other's misunderstand God in the way that you understand "him" you misunderstand the teaching of gnosticism and individual god-realization as well.
I can tell you are passionate and devoted, you make a lot of points that would make for a great real-time exchange (seriously, send me a PM and we will talk if you would like). I also sense a darkness in Gnosticism. i read from a distance but do not practice.
Darkness is good to show where the light is required.
When you learn to practice it, then you will understand the greatness of Gnostic Christianity as compared to Christianity.
Gnostic Christianity recognizes good and evil and that good should be loved and that evil should be hated. Christianity is so eager to show a more loving God that they invented unconditional love, and then quickly give all the conditions required to get that love.
Gnostic Christianity is more honest in that we place goodness as a condition for love and place evil as a good reason to hate. I see that as better than lying about unconditional love.
Their respect for the ways of Lucifer for instance as you mentioned is troublesome.
As it should if true. You might remember that Gnostic Christianity holds no supernatural beliefs.
Satan and hell are a Christian invention. Bishop Spong is never wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc
Humility is very important for spiritual growth, that I agree, but I respectfully disagree that you think humans are not capable of touching upon Christ consciousness.
Ditto.
Your comments on meditation are curious...and made me think, and sure I guess it is possible that emptying ones thoughts in meditation can open a channel to unwanted spirits, bit it can also open channels for healing spirits- its all about tuning in my verbiage. I had a mantra-ish message that came to me spontaneously,
'empty your heart
In this stillness you will find clarity'
I don't believe it came from a spirit of ill intention
It helped me clear up deep emotional tangles, see things a little more objectively, and unify my channels (again in my verbiage).
I do believe there are spirits that work through humans when those doors are open, and it may not be as simple as a black and white, dark and light sides...I believe that is a gross oversimplification.
More reponse later...
You may actually be right about that, my experience with gnostics is limited, I must admit.. If you guys have any recommended resources that you could point me towards to give me a better understanding of what you believe, id be grateful![]()
Only Christ Himself has the full measure of the Spirit,
So you deny what Jesus and the bible say about Jesus' brethren then, do you?
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amongmany brethren.
All the new age self centered nonsense that is so pervasive in the world, is chief among those deceptions, yet its taking off like wildfire in a world of self worship. This is very sad...
https://www.amazon.com/Not-His-Image-Gnostic-Ecology/dp/193149892X
I don't have the space to reply as I quite honestly disagree with almost everything you've written there. Our flesh is not corrupt, attachment to it is. Christ was not perfect, and we will never be either, he was human. He was the son of God only in that he aligned his consciousness with that of the Creator, and thus lost himself. But not through denial of his divinity. Jesus was not special, he was only successful. Any of us may be as well. The idea that we are imperfect because we are imperfect is the greatest lie propagated by the false god of mainstream Christianity. The ideal of perfection creates a perpetual and neverending cycle of failing/falling because humans cannot achieve it.
I agree.
Christianity invented the fall by reversing the moral of the story of Eden. Jews saw Eden as where man was elevated, not where man fell. This did not help Christianity discredit the Jews, the many serpent cults of those days, as well as women, so Christianity reversed our elevation to our fall.
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/
the Pentateuch and Haftorahs, observes, ‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.
You limit yourself if you tell yourself you will never be like Christ. Did he not himself say that you too can know the kingdom of Heaven? Why then would you put him on a pedestal of perfection and unattainability? That goes directly against his word. The reason is that you've listened to this bullshit that perfection is attainable, and until you attain it, you are in some way wrong or less divine than Christ or the Creator. That is the biggest lie ever told.
Especially given that Jesus himself said that any true believer could do what he did and more.
I apologize for being unable to continue but I quite frankly thought this was a much different conversation than it is.
Further discussion on the subject is pointless, Id have to die before I give up the truth of who Christ is, my life is just not that important, its who God is that is important to me.
Your God is an immoral genocidal God.
Are God's morals not important to you?
If they are, why are you following a God with satanic morals?
Tell us, from your moral standpoint, who is more likely to promote the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty as good justice?
Satan or your God?
Religion is personal and if God is not willing to get personal then he is not worthy of us.
That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity because it does speak to the personal of man's Godhood.
The bible does indeed and shows the way Jesus taught. You will know that that way is never taught by the church.
God created us, If He distances Himself from us, it is because we are not worthy of Him. The arrogance of man, limited in knowledge, is ever trying to equate himself to an omniscient God..
Only because you have accepted a description of God that is man made and wrong as no one can know anything of the supernatural.
The irony..
For sure.
Ok, now thats more like it, direct and to the point. Now the answer to that is simple. (keep in mind, this is Christian doctrine, you asked, so Im giving you our perspective)
God created us with an innate, intrinsic knowledge of right and wrong.
?? Which scriptures tell you this lie?
Then why deny A & E the tree of knowledge that you say they already had?
We are born without sin, clean slate.. But inevitably, we as humans sin against God, we choose immoral behavior that is in direct contradiction to our own given nature.
Wow. So man can somehow go against his own nature. That makes no sense at all. We have a sin nature that God gave us just as he gave Satan hers. If we are to believe biblical B.S.
Have you ever lied to someone? God hasnt. Have you ever stolen something? God hasnt..
See above where I show God as the father of lies.
Your last could be correct but God has coveted another man's woman and that is as good as stealing as God put the coveting commandment with other possessions that we are not to covet. That is quite close to stealing and a sin.
Without God, there is no foundation for right and wrong, which is why people invest so much time in convincing themselves God doesnt exist, so they can do as they please.. But sin will always lead to negative affects on ones own life.
What did the great sin of genocide lead to in terms of negatives for God?
Simply disagreeing with God isnt an argument against His existence.
True but it might show how unworthy he is and should not be called God.
As a Christian, its impossible to prove or disprove god to a person. The Bible states clearly that God hides himself, God hates the proud, the wicked and those who reject Him, so He removes all sense of His presence from that person, allowing them to fall into a deception, this is something the person initiates, not God.
Yet Jesus/God was chastised for hanging with the publicans and saying he came for the sick, not the well, which refutes what you put.
you simply cannot imagine the joy of salvation,
What were you condemned for and did the penalty fit the crime or sin that God imposed on you?
and know true joy..
How can you have true joy when you are following a genocidal God who, in the King David story even tortures a baby for 6 days before finally killing it? All because of anger with the father.
The profundity of what Ive just said to you is truly incomprehensible, I simply cannot put it into words adequately enough.. Once it happens, you will say the same things I am, and you will likely be hated for it.. As I am.
If you are hated it is because you follow a God who does not deserve respect.
Gnostic Christians have been telling you that forever and that is why Christians have always hated Gnostic Christians.
That and Christians could not refute our moral positions while we could make mince meat of yours.
Regards
DL
Jesus couldnt be more thorough about why with this very topic, He quite literally explains the failure of Christianity, but He himself doesnt identify these people as real believing Christians, its a title they carry only, its what the new testament is about, Paul himself warns of falling from true saving grace, getting caught up in false christs, of the which there are many people are deluded with.
"These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" -Jesus Christ, our Lord
I would argue that Jesus is not the way.
Those who follow Jesus yet remain in Christianity are adding to the corruption that Christianity is