Harm Reduction GHB - possible health concerns

[Giulietta]

Hello,

I'm considering going back on GHB after a one year break from it. I'm in my mid 20s work out daily and eat healthy. I used to dose about 12ml almost every evening for about 4-5 years. Stopping the use was pretty easy and hard at the same time. I had no physical withdrawal, but it felt pointless, like breaking up with a good friend for no reason. I know an actual good friend would be a healthier alternative. I'm working on it.

My three questions:

1a) what are the long term dangers I'm exposing myself to? Assuming the substance consumed is pure like prescription Xyrem.

1b) what risks are involved with consuming GHB synthesized from GBL acquired from either the dark web or legally operating companies in Europe that sell to private customers? (Keywords: technical grade, heavy metals and other impurities)

3) Can harmful impurities always be identified through e.g. a governmental drug-testing institution that usees gas chromatography, mass spectrometry and spectroscopy - analysis (UHPLCMS, UHPLCDAD, MALDIHRMS, ATRFTIR) ?

Have a great day.

 

[skitzo23]

When you are in deep addiction you aren't going to give af about point 1b and 3, you're just goin to get what you can

 

[Giulietta]

I get what you are saying. It sure is an addiction. But at the same time i have at least some respect for these substances and a good measure of discipline. Otherwise I would not have been able to quit for a year or keep my use strictly confined to 7-10 p.m. each night for years with only a handful of exceptions.

And getting the materials to the lab is as easy as dropping off an envelope at the post office.

I appreciate the warning. Things could always go wrong for anyone including me. But I'm only interested in finding out more about the biological/ chemical factors in this risk assessment.

The rest of it is my own responsibility.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

You used to dose 12ml just to sleep? Were you dependent?

5 or 6ml is enough to make me involuntarily black out and wake up on the floor... (and I have a very high GABA tolerance). GHB can be dosed differently but approx 1g/1m is common. 12g or 12ml would potentially kill the average person in overdose.

This makes me think the GHB you used to get was underdosed, and dosing these days may be much stonger than you are used to.

Taking 12ml every night for years and no withdrawal?? That doesn't sound correct at all. A person taking 6g or 6ml of GHB per day would suffer withdrawal after just weeks.

Anyways... long term danger is definitely the effects of GHB abuse or dependence more than any potential impurity. GBL is usually fairly pure. Other chemicals like 1,4 BDO are much harder on the body and not suitable for daily use.

 

[Giulietta]

I spread it out over a couple hours. Initially dosing 4ml then 2-3ml after dinner and 2ml every 60-90mins.
The initial 4ml dose was always enough to start a nice buzz. Not enough to feel drunk just a nice mood lift and relaxed state.

On the weekend if it was a long night out i occasionally use up to 18ml. This happened about 6x per Month.

Whenever i decided to take a break for a week or just a day (which happened rarely) i couldn't feel any withdrawals. I slept as per usual, the days felt normal.

Yes my GHB was most likely a bit diluted. I always got GBL and converted it myself. Usually not evaporating all of the water.

I always tested a new batch at home for a couple days. Finding the lowest initial dose to give me the buzz i like and then taking 50% of that every 60-90mins.

By withdrawal do you mean sleeplessness?

 

[CFC]

1a) what are the long term dangers I'm exposing myself to?

Death: vomiting while semi-conscious or unconscious, inspiring it, and choking 'till you're dead. Just don't do it would be my honest advice.

RIP Richard C., I still miss ya, and please work your magic to save these peep from themselves

 

[Giulietta]

I appreciate the concern but I'm not looking for life advice or for anyone to save me. I can go to my therapist, doctor or parents for that. There are endless sources to hammer home the point that drugs can kill you. Just like you can get hammered on booze, trip down the stairs and break your neck. There are risks and humans mess up.
I get it.
I accept it.

The reason I came exactly here is because I know there are knowledgeable people here and I'm seeking to better understand this substance. That way I might be able to make more informed decisions and reduce some risks.

Stuff like @Snafu in the Void wrote. Great! Without that information maybe I would have gone out and gotten BDO thinking it's no worse than GHB.

You can tell kids to not have sex because it's the surest way to not get pregnant or catch an STD or accept their reality and impulses and give them advice for the path they are on.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

We are a harm reduction forum. Sometimes we may get redundant with "that's dangerous" advice, but it's essentially what we do here.

 

[CFC]

I appreciate the concern but I'm not looking for life advice or for anyone to save me. I can go to my therapist, doctor or parents for that. There are endless sources to hammer home the point that drugs can kill you. Just like you can get hammered on booze, trip down the stairs and break your neck. There are risks and humans mess up.
I get it.
I accept it.

The reason I came exactly here is because I know there are knowledgeable people here and I'm seeking to better understand this substance. That way I might be able to make more informed decisions and reduce some risks.

Stuff like @Snafu in the Void wrote. Great! Without that information maybe I would have gone out and gotten BDO thinking it's no worse than GHB.

You can tell kids to not have sex because it's the surest way to not get pregnant or catch an STD or accept their reality and impulses and give them advice for the path they are on.

The trouble with GHB/GBL is it's one of a select few recreational drugs where the difference between having a good time one minute, and then passing out/vomiting/choking/dying, is disconcertingly slight. Even people who've used for years can make just one single silly dosing mistake and then they're passing out in the street, choking, or dead. I think I've directly experienced the deaths of 7 (1 close addict friend) and quite literally seen hundreds of hospitalizations from my 20+ years experience with this drug (FWIW I used to provide HR/support in gay clubs, and the gay community go mad for the stuff.

Unfortunately, you don't really learn much of a lesson from being just fine 99 times and then dying. So I say to you again, the realistic long term danger you are exposing yourself to is death. And I strongly encourage you to actually take my experience seriously and make the informed choice to never use it the way you used to in the past. Every time you do that, you're playing Russian Roulette, whether you choose to accept that reality or not.

 

[drick]

You used to dose 12ml just to sleep? Were you dependent?

5 or 6ml is enough to make me involuntarily black out and wake up on the floor... (and I have a very high GABA tolerance). GHB can be dosed differently but approx 1g/1m is common. 12g or 12ml would potentially kill the average person in overdose.

This makes me think the GHB you used to get was underdosed, and dosing these days may be much stonger than you are used to.

Taking 12ml every night for years and no withdrawal?? That doesn't sound correct at all. A person taking 6g or 6ml of GHB per day would suffer withdrawal after just weeks.

Anyways... long term danger is definitely the effects of GHB abuse or dependence more than any potential impurity. GBL is usually fairly pure. Other chemicals like 1,4 BDO are much harder on the body and not suitable for daily use.

Is there a source for BDO being harder on the body?

I'm here for BDO harm reduction. An old friend with a wild side gave me some "ghb" when I stopped drinking. I'm certain it's BDO, however. Freezes just below room temp, clear glycol taste if I lack a drop off my finger.

So I decided to research it before trying it.

Everyone here agrees that GHB is safest. Everyone seems to agree that GBL is the most fun. But people have states that GBL is hardest on thr body, and that BDO is hardest. One poster stated this had been studied and BDO was ~= GHB while GBL was dangerous.

So I'm confused and was hoping to find a source.

 

[drick]

In theory... bdo is broken down by alcohol dehydrogenase then aldehyde dehydrogenase to ghb.

The aldehyde is 4-hydroxybutylaldehyde, said by psychonaut to not have as high organ toxicity as acetaldehyde, which is what ADH makes out of ethanol.

A can of domestic (us) beer would have ~12 grams of ethanol which has ~1/2 the molecular weight of BDO. So 2 grams of bdo would yield 12x less molecules of s less toxic aldehyde.

So 25x less toxic than 1 beer? (Assigning an arbitrary value of hydroxybutylaldehyde vs acetaldehyde of 0.5)

What am I missing?

 

[Kizaru]

You used to dose 12ml just to sleep? Were you dependent?

5 or 6ml is enough to make me involuntarily black out and wake up on the floor... (and I have a very high GABA tolerance). GHB can be dosed differently but approx 1g/1m is common. 12g or 12ml would potentially kill the average person in overdose.

This makes me think the GHB you used to get was underdosed, and dosing these days may be much stonger than you are used to.

Taking 12ml every night for years and no withdrawal?? That doesn't sound correct at all. A person taking 6g or 6ml of GHB per day would suffer withdrawal after just weeks.

Anyways... long term danger is definitely the effects of GHB abuse or dependence more than any potential impurity. GBL is usually fairly pure. Other chemicals like 1,4 BDO are much harder on the body and not suitable for daily use.

I don't know what you are talking about but ghb ain't physically addictive if you only take 6 grams . It is fda approved for the treatment of narcolepsy/cataplexy with a indication of 9 grams . I have been addicted to ghb for years and i can honestly tell severe dependancy only forms with 24/7 around the clock use no matter how long u use . Ghb is only moderately physically addictive . Its far less then benzo's the amount you can use thats why it can be a slippery slope .

 

[Kizaru]

The trouble with GHB/GBL is it's one of a select few recreational drugs where the difference between having a good time one minute, and then passing out/vomiting/choking/dying, is disconcertingly slight. Even people who've used for years can make just one single silly dosing mistake and then they're passing out in the street, choking, or dead. I think I've directly experienced the deaths of 7 (1 close addict friend) and quite literally seen hundreds of hospitalizations from my 20+ years experience with this drug (FWIW I used to provide HR/support in gay clubs, and the gay community go mad for the stuff.

Unfortunately, you don't really learn much of a lesson from being just fine 99 times and then dying. So I say to you again, the realistic long term danger you are exposing yourself to is death. And I strongly encourage you to actually take my experience seriously and make the informed choice to never use it the way you used to in the past. Every time you do that, you're playing Russian Roulette, whether you choose to accept that reality or not.

This mostly has to do with people combining it with other downers . You don't get into a coma of just taking a little bit to much . The sleep dose is way under the od dose so if you are not a complete moron ghb is actually pretty safe on its own .

 

[Kizaru]

Death: vomiting while semi-conscious or unconscious, inspiring it, and choking 'till you're dead. Just don't do it would be my honest advice.

RIP Richard C., I still miss ya, and please work your magic to save these peep from themselves

Ghb is alot more safe when taken by itself . Opioide's od are much much more dangerous .
Ghb is also approved for the treatment of narcolepsy which can be used from age 7 years .
Why exactly does ghb get this insane reputation ? Don't get me wrong its indeed a little bit more of a tricky drug ,but simply buying a syringe doesn't take much brain power .

You used to dose 12ml just to sleep? Were you dependent?

5 or 6ml is enough to make me involuntarily black out and wake up on the floor... (and I have a very high GABA tolerance). GHB can be dosed differently but approx 1g/1m is common. 12g or 12ml would potentially kill the average person in overdose.

This makes me think the GHB you used to get was underdosed, and dosing these days may be much stonger than you are used to.

Taking 12ml every night for years and no withdrawal?? That doesn't sound correct at all. A person taking 6g or 6ml of GHB per day would suffer withdrawal after just weeks.

Anyways... long term danger is definitely the effects of GHB abuse or dependence more than any potential impurity. GBL is usually fairly pure. Other chemicals like 1,4 BDO are much harder on the body and not suitable for daily use.

Most street ghb is between 400/700mg/ml , while xyrem contains 500mg per ml . You need like a 1.5/2.5 grams for a decent high .

 

[Giulietta]

@Kizaru thanks for the input!

I have one more question and I know it's impossible to answer with any certainty:

- What do you guys figure is the risk of getting "visitors" when purchasing GBL legally from the Netherlands into another EU country?
Maybe @jc101 has some input on this

All I have to go on is this:

- I had a chat with the support of probably the biggest onlineshop for GBL in the EU (the inventors of the "Gel") and they answered: ,,every customer can randomly be visited by the police to make sure the product is used only for it's intended purpose"

- They fulfill about 800 shipments per month.

- They have lots of ratings which don't look fake and no one is complaining about surprise visits.

- I assume they have mainly "legit" customers, how else could they still be up and running?
And if even 5% of their legit customers had to explain to their neighbors the cop car in their driveway or in front of their workplace I assume they would get a lot of backlash. + The whole idea behind keeping the sale of GBL to private customers legal was to get rid of B2B paperwork and bureaucracy. If that was to be replaced by the authorities knocking on doors I'm not sure that would constitute less of a hassle.

What are your guys thoughts and experiences on the matter?

 

[Kizaru]

@Kizaru thanks for the input!

I have one more question and I know it's impossible to answer with any certainty:

- What do you guys figure is the risk of getting "visitors" when purchasing GBL legally from the Netherlands into another EU country?
Maybe @jc101 has some input on this

All I have to go on is this:

- I had a chat with the support of probably the biggest onlineshop for GBL in the EU (the inventors of the "Gel") and they answered: ,,every customer can randomly be visited by the police to make sure the product is used only for it's intended purpose"

- They fulfill about 800 shipments per month.

- They have lots of ratings which don't look fake and no one is complaining about surprise visits.

- I assume they have mainly "legit" customers, how else could they still be up and running?
And if even 5% of their legit customers had to explain to their neighbors the cop car in their driveway or in front of their workplace I assume they would get a lot of backlash. + The whole idea behind keeping the sale of GBL to private customers legal was to get rid of B2B paperwork and bureaucracy. If that was to be replaced by the authorities knocking on doors I'm not sure that would constitute less of a hassle.

What are your guys thoughts and experiences on the matter?

Hey i saw your reply . Its been more difficult to obtain ghb in the Netherlands also . Before it was insane easy and was practically around the corner everyday . We apperantly also suffered from bans . While you can still obtain ghb fairly easy the prices increased with like 30/40% . I have long history of ghb addiction and unfortunately my dealer got caught a year ago . This was kind of a big fish in my small town. Fortunately i came across a very Trustfull vendor which sells gbl gel (red and blue) both are very good if you make ghb off it. I have been using the last 6 months from this vendor and is 1000% legit . I can't name prices and or sources unfortunately duo to forum rules i believe . So you have to pm me if you want .the synthesize of gbl gel works exactly the same as normal gbl . We have no concerns here for "visitors" but then again this is the Netherlands and you don't rlly have to take anything serious here so i have no real information in other country's . It depends on its system .

 

[Kizaru]

@Kizaru thanks for the input!

I have one more question and I know it's impossible to answer with any certainty:

- What do you guys figure is the risk of getting "visitors" when purchasing GBL legally from the Netherlands into another EU country?
Maybe @jc101 has some input on this

All I have to go on is this:

- I had a chat with the support of probably the biggest onlineshop for GBL in the EU (the inventors of the "Gel") and they answered: ,,every customer can randomly be visited by the police to make sure the product is used only for it's intended purpose"

- They fulfill about 800 shipments per month.

- They have lots of ratings which don't look fake and no one is complaining about surprise visits.

- I assume they have mainly "legit" customers, how else could they still be up and running?
And if even 5% of their legit customers had to explain to their neighbors the cop car in their driveway or in front of their workplace I assume they would get a lot of backlash. + The whole idea behind keeping the sale of GBL to private customers legal was to get rid of B2B paperwork and bureaucracy. If that was to be replaced by the authorities knocking on doors I'm not sure that would constitute less of a hassle.

What are your guys thoughts and experiences on the matter?

Also tips when using . Avoid 24/7 usage as much as possible . Baclofen/pregalabine/diazepam will counter any heavy physical addiction . Ghb can be a bitch when CT'ing but with medication there is never a problem . Also kindling is much less with ghb compared to benzo's . Buy a syringe when using , do not combine with other downers like alcohol or opioides etc .

 

[Giulietta]

Thanks for the tipp! Fortunately I have never had an issue with 24/7 the past four years and I will try to keep it that way. Evenings only for me Good to hear you had a positive experience with the gel so far. Some people say it's hard to get good GHB out of it. I would really like to do a laboratory analysis on the gel to feel a bit safer (they offer it for free and anonymously here) but I'm not sure if they will be able to give useful results with the gel so I might go for another shop that offers regular GBL to private customers. If that one gets bad results then the gel it is. The manufacturers analysis of super grade (which is the GBL in the Gel) is tested with 99.78% purity which sounds promising.
I will most likely take the plunge and go for the clear net. I got busted once for a DN order which left a bad taste.

 

[Kizaru]

Thanks for the tipp! Fortunately I have never had an issue with 24/7 the past four years and I will try to keep it that way. Evenings only for me Good to hear you had a positive experience with the gel so far. Some people say it's hard to get good GHB out of it. I would really like to do a laboratory analysis on the gel to feel a bit safer (they offer it for free and anonymously here) but I'm not sure if they will be able to give useful results with the gel so I might go for another shop that offers regular GBL to private customers. If that one gets bad results then the gel it is. The manufacturers analysis of super grade (which is the GBL in the Gel) is tested with 99.78% purity which sounds promising.
I will most likely take the plunge and go for the clear net. I got busted once for a DN order which left a bad taste.

Nah i have used normal ghb for over 8 years and the gel is exactly the same . The red one contains 99% gbl and the blue one 97% , the red one is banned in the Netherlands but not the blue one . At first i thought shit the blue ain't gonna do good because its tech grade 97% but it seems the end result is exactly the same and there is zero potency difference between the normal ghb and this blue gel . Also the other added 3% contains out of stuff which ain't toxic to human consumption so side effect wise its also just the same been using for a while now . In my opinion all the stories about China gbl vs German gbl and 99.9%vs99% is just complete bs. There is no difference in feeling for the consumer , you ain't gonna feel difference between 99% or 99.9%

 

[Giulietta]

@Kizaru
Thanks for sharing this info! Mostly I'm worried that the "other" % that aren't GBL could lead to long term brain or organ damage where at first you don't notice a thing but after many months you feel something is off but it's already too late.

I admit my brain is great at coming up with such concerns but I have read one post where a person describes severe vertigo, their legs randomly giving out, slurred speech and other parkinson's type symptoms after consuming a bad batch, with the doctor clueless.
Another one from a german forum where a user reports his friend, who was absolutely healthy and he just talked to on the phone in the evening, just didn't wake up the next morning. The doctor ruled the cause of death as sudden heart failure (gbl obtained from eu clean web shop).
I'm not a chemist so I can't say if this is realistic or just coincidence and have no idea where the first guy got his GBL from.

Do you know what the non-GBL % are possibly composed of? I have read about traces of Water, 1,4BDO and also COLOR? But still trying to find out more about this.