General Election 2015

[Vurtual]

Bob crow had it right on the EU too (No2EU) - all the proper left (you know, the lonely ones (signposts not weathercocks we can tell ourselves )) are against the capitalist eu - the association between the 'left' and the EU is pretty widespread in the public though - confusion comes partly from the difference between the EU parliament (which can be a bit lefty, but has no real power) and the commission (like the cabinet with all the power, but unelected) - added to this the ECB is pretty dominant these days, and is pretty much part of the vampire squid of banking. It's not about being against a european union in principle, just being against the current neoliberal form (which is pretty baked in).

The 'left' really needs to make its arguments against europe clear to prevent being lumped together with xenophobes who just don't like foreigners or change (i think sinn fein and the irish 'no' people managed this to a degree) - this is difficult because the arguments require lots of detailed background about international politics which people just don't know about, and this loses lots of people (the patronisation can't help either ). And you're fighting against an entire tide of cradle-to-grave propaganda from the other side (i mean the overall capitalist side rather than the conventional yes/no forces (which are both capitalist))

Apparently after the militant purges kinnock and mandy and co didn't really have any idea of what economic policy to adopt (lots of the proper economists/marxists had been booted out i spose) - so they decided to just go and ask the city of london what economic policy they should have - they city told them they should support the ERM and so they did - despite how bad this went, ever since labour has had city-friendly economics (this is what robin ramsay says anyway) - they were 'new labour' long before blair.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Hahahahahahahahaha! Boris has bought three second hand water cannon off the German police for £218000 and Theresa May wont let him use them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33538171

You can't make this shit up.

 

[felix]

Felix, fuck the loft yo, we need space lasers and robots. Now.

The EU (EEC anybody?) has always been largely nothing more than a capitalist wet dream, a single market for business not international socialism for the workers. It's why the Left opposed staying in in 1975. At that time we had people like Michael Foot on the same side as Enoch Powell. They never shared a platform so perhaps we shouldn't worry about potentially lining up with UKIP nutters now. It's unfortunate that in a black and white yes or no vote that we appear to be on the same side as neo-fascist idiots but that's just an accident of reasoning - and our reasoning is far removed to what the right believe. And if anything the real danger now, the real new fascism is the corporate single state entity that seeks to steamroller all opposition (see Greece, see Spain next) to a business elite that is creaming off the profits through nothing more than banking fixes with rules bent cruelly to benefit only one side.

The EU has nothing to do with internationalism. We don't need it. Owen Jones is right.

It's not just a loft; it's a secret fortress where we're going to hide when Emperor Osborne's Cybermarines come looking for us in 2017. I'm thinking of doing an Anne Frank diary, with an amusing Scottish twist. Looking for a publisher at the moment.

I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance over the EU issue, because the SNP want an independent Scotland to stay in the EU, while other people I like and respect and agree with say they want out. I don't understand why such a major decision has been foisted on the electorate. It seems such a complicated issue that I don't think people on the whole will know what they're voting for and why. If they even bother.

I've almost stopped reading anything about UK politics nowadays cos it's all so fucking horrific. No wonder I spend so much time upstairs listening to 80s music, hammering & screwing, avoiding it all.

 

[Vurtual]

...I don't understand why such a major decision has been foisted on the electorate. It seems such a complicated issue that I don't think people on the whole will know what they're voting for and why. If they even bother.

That's dangerous technocratic thinking there and a wet dream for the authorities who've always thought that way: "if only we didn't have to involve the great unwashed, they just don't understand the critical issues properly" - this is eddie bernays thinking. I think it was einstein who said if you can't explain your ideas to a reasonably intelligent 10 year old, you probably don't understand it properly (or something like that) - i won't believe that economics and politics issues are beyond average people - just get Yanni Varoufakis to try explaining it first before making a judgement (he did a book where he explains economics to his teenage daughter) - economists, governments and experts of all types have a strong interest in keeping their field incomprehensible or else we don't need them anymore.

Our whole consumerist culture and education system pushes people towards an unquestioning dumbed down state of mind - i don't think mass ignorance is inevitable but it is intentionally encouraged by our system. As you've seen in scotland normal people can become engaged in complex politics when it actually means something and they can discuss it openly without too much guidance of establishment 'experts'.

 

[felix]

I know, and I agree.

I'm not saying the electorate are stupid. I'm saying that we will be fed a load of simplified propaganda from both sides, and there are hidden agendas and vested interests all over the place. I genuinely don't know how I should vote.

Maybe I'm saying that it's me who's stupid. Or uninformed. Or even uninterested. I suspect I'm not alone.

I do need to get a grip and read up on the subject a bit more. What do the Tories want? Should we just want the opposite out of principle because they're up to something?? :D

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance over the EU issue, because the SNP want an independent Scotland to stay in the EU, while other people I like and respect and agree with say they want out. I don't understand why such a major decision has been foisted on the electorate. It seems such a complicated issue that I don't think people on the whole will know what they're voting for and why. If they even bother.

p

This resonates. While Vurtual is right and things CAN be explained (populace ain't totally thick yo) its also a near certainty they WON'T be explained. The 1975 referendum voted YES (we'll stay in) because the YES campaign had roughly 7 million pounds spent on it while the NO campaign had a budget of £7.85 and a half pence (remember half pence pieces?). And this is only a slight exaggeration. Ask David Steele. He was a young Liberal MP at the time and was thrust into the Yes campaign alongside top Tories. He tells a story where he was busy in London one day and was asked by the campaign to go to Brussels to pick up some canvassing tips/materials/propaganda. He explained he didn't think he could do it because he was due at a meeting (for the Yes campaign) in Scotland later that evening (he'd planned on getting the train up).

"No worries Mr Steele, we'll get you a private jet"

And they did. While Michael Foot was probably cycling to hustings in Islington.

That's a true story and a good illustration of how the 75 referendum was bought.

They'll buy the "right" result this time too.

EDIT Fuck, just remembered another one he tells. He goes to Willie Whitelaw, or some Tory grandee prick, and announces "we aren't short on manpower (which is ironic because he meant female secretaries) but we are short on machinery..we're about 100 typewriters short of what we need right now"

Whitelaw "No problem, I'll just call IBM"

Who, of course, donated for free.

That's how this shit works.

 

[Vurtual]

I agree with both of you that's where we are. The only battle that matters in politics is the battle for information/media as it largely determines how people think about everything else.

'What do the tories want?' is a good question - once they get into the higher echelons of the party they know full well that they have to support the EU because this is what america and the city want; but at the same time they need to appear as if they don't to retain their more xenophobic voters. Added to this the cabal of the elite who do spend money campaigning to leave (eg goldsmith) - it's hard to know if this is just theatre on part of the elites to play both sides against each other and stir up the right, or is the expression of some ultra-rightist group who want to bring back the physical british empire (or just want an oceania/airstrip one/eurasia type setup).

EDIT: Did you see old jeremy corbyn losing his rag at krishnan guru-murthy on C4 news? Bit shouty but i'm still with him - the labour establishment are pooping themselves at how popular corbyn is (2nd to burnham so far in nominations from constituency labour parties) - they're now campaigning to eliminate him by getting other voters to close him out with second preferences - this is exactly the sort of behaviour that loses them core voters - as frankie said (better) they should stop trying to win tory voters by being right wing and concentrate on all the voters that didn't vote or voted green. If that's still not enough to win a particular election sobeit - better a signpost than a weathercock and all that (but i suspect that having obvious genuine principles may be very popular with voters given half a chance)

 

[felix]

Did you see old jeremy corbyn losing his rag at krishnan guru-murthy on C4 news?

Just watched it. I was literally covering my face with my hands at such a fucking train wreck at the half way point. I had no idea Krishnan Guru Murthy was such a fucking idiotic tosser. Who the hell is pulling his strings, to make him act in such a retarded manner??

I can't believe that anyone could attack Jeremy Corbyn's views on anything that was dicussed. What the fuck.

 

[Vurtual]

I've been looking for polling of labour members for the last few weeks after the online poll showed corbyn way out in the lead - strangely it seems they've been keeping the polling data quiet. Well according to this new statesman article, private polling shows jeremy is the clear leader link. "One survey has Corbyn ahead by more than 15 points. Another puts him in what one campaign staffer called "a commanding position...he is on course to win"."

I've had the strong feeling that corbyn was favourite from people i've talked to, but assumed i just hang around with dinosaur lefties - i do, but it looks like most labour members are the same. I bet the labour elite wish they could ditch their core voters/members and replace them with people who understood the neoliberal realities better (ie tories).

I just think that, regardless of policies, people respond to someone who they detect is genuine and sticking up for his principles, as opposed to some blairite whose opinions have been meticulously focus grouped into bland mush.

I suspect the labour heirarchy is well pleased (if not directly implicated) in the torygraph campaign to vote corbyn to wreck labour. I also suspect that the they'll pretend that the telegraph campaign is the only reason corbyn gets the support he does and just disallow him from the contest. It would be so good if the telegraph helped elect corbyn and he went on to actually bring in socialism down the line (maybe i'm a dreamer...).

 

[felix]

That Telegraph "campaign" is some shameful shit. Hopefully it'll backfire on them, some day...

Glad to see Corbyn in the lead though, which surprised me.

 

[Waterfall]

That's fantastic to hear Vurtual. I happen to be one of the "new, younger" members mentioned in the article, having joined the morning after the election angry, pissed and despairing. I'll definitely be putting Corbyn first on my ballot, as will most of those I know who are able to vote. There's a great story about Corbyn and Tony Benn sneaking a power drill into Westminster during the Thatcher years a putting up a plaque in honour of an obscure campaigner for universal suffrage. It's apparently still there, having become something of a Parliamentary legend.


I honestly don't give a toss about how electable he is; the pessimist in me thinks Labour don't have a chance in 2020 in any case, so we might as well go out in a blaze of Michael Foot-style glory.

 

[felix]

^ That plaque is definitely still there. It's in a cleaners' cupboard.

 

[Chemical Samile]

Just watched it. I was literally covering my face with my hands at such a fucking train wreck at the half way point. I had no idea Krishnan Guru Murthy was such a fucking idiotic tosser. Who the hell is pulling his strings, to make him act in such a retarded manner??

I can't believe that anyone could attack Jeremy Corbyn's views on anything that was dicussed. What the fuck.

I had no idea who Jeremy Corbyn was before I watched this video. I can't believe how much I agreed with everything he was talking about - especially his views on corporation tax evasion - I don't know how anyone could say this was a bad way to run the world.... It would be incredible if he was PM and actually managed to implement half of what he was talking about here. I wonder if he would be able to even if he was PM though?

Aye, Krishnan Guru Murthy is an utter cunt. Did you see his recent interview with Robert Downey Jr promoting Iron Man (fuck knows why KGM was even doing this type of interview, doesn't seem like a fucking news story...). KGM suddenly starts acting the cock and asks him some really awkward questions and Robert Downey Jr bails on him... Real cringe-worthy stuff...

 

[Smiley91]

Sorry for interrupting but I have got to ask...
Anyone seen this?

http://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/police-scotland/armed-policing/armed-policing-in-scotland

Fair enough for combating terrorists, but theres pictures of them walking around the street as casual as you like. Already problems with police abusing their power searching weans, youngsters illegally. I thought it was a UK-wide thing but it's just up here. Anyone know who is responsible for this decision?? First time I've seen this but I know it's been happening for a while. Pure disgusted.

 

[Ceres]

they were seen breaking up a fight at a mcdonalds in inverness while carrying glock 18's if i recall correctly. stupid move.

also Nelson Mandela day

 

[pinkpapaver]

Sorry for interrupting but I have got to ask...
Anyone seen this?

http://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/police-scotland/armed-policing/armed-policing-in-scotland

Fair enough for combating terrorists, but theres pictures of them walking around the street as casual as you like. Already problems with police abusing their power searching weans, youngsters illegally. I thought it was a UK-wide thing but it's just up here. Anyone know who is responsible for this decision?? First time I've seen this but I know it's been happening for a while. Pure disgusted.

The snp. They're in charge unless the Tories sent em up.

 

[Ceres]

actually its the head of police scotland who is responsible, and he is a well known arsehole.

 

[pinkpapaver]

Who directs the head police of Scotland?

 

[Ceres]

The Chief Constable of Police Scotland did not consult his top civilian watchdog before the decision to put permanently armed officers on patrol throughout Scotland, MSPs were told yesterday.

The move meant there was no risk assessment of the policy, which has proved particularly controversial in Inverness and the Highlands, where levels of violent crime have traditionally been low.

Vic Emery, chairman of the Scottish Police Authority (SPA), said he was only made aware of the move when it was given a one-line reference in a report to a public meeting.

He told MSPs it was not discussed in any detail at the talks in Selkirk on June 25 last year – two months after officers armed with handguns were deployed – and was waived through.

he did it off his own back and doesnt seem to care about what anyone else thinks.

 

[Smiley91]

That's well bad. Why was he allowed even to make the decision thats what confuses me.