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gang rapes in sydney - please read.

Hehe fanx BK...actually that's the one I'm reading....I just forgot the first part of the title *LOL*
Oh gawd I could on forever bout this stuff, but for once I am gonna bite my tongue!!!
 
Thoth, the opinions on criminality I've espoused here are based on what I've learned during my education, and on the conclusions drawn by the type of people you mentioned...those who've spent their careers investigating this stuff.....just wanna make it clear I dun base my opinions on airy fairy cotton candy unfounded crap
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True, true BMW... I was not adressing anybody when I said that, just making the point that it is easy to get caught up in the easy 'moral majority' viewpoint. I always argue as the devil's-advocate (thats what too many history essays do to you). I think the point I want to make is that there is a great difference between justice and revenge. It is not the judicial systems role to dispense revenge, it exists as a mechanism to deter crime and protect innocent members of society. Revenge is an ultimately selfish ideal. This is a terribly blunt (and some would say offensive) statememt to make when examining the more hideous crimes (particulary ones within this context) yet nonetheless remains true.
If we accept that the role of the judicary to punish offenders and deter crime as I said before, it is clear that that revenge achieves neither. Rather, I beleive such measures would increase the level of social problems within our society through the result of such measures contributing to the formation in the first place.
Look at America, where families of victims cannot get closure unless they have seen the offender die in front of them. Such a fixation on death and the notion of an eye-for-an-eye seems disturbing. One needs to witness the suffering of another before they can accept their own? Another example is Israel vs Palistine... These two nations have been engaged in decades of bloodshed due to some selfish notion that they must avenge each others acts. How long will it be until they show some kind of acceptance of their mutual losses instead of attempting to constantly take the petty righteous highground while letting the killing continue? Probably never, thus they remain locked in a vicious circle of perpetual senseless struggle.
One must always draw the line somewhere. Criminals can commit hideous crimes, with flagrant disregard for life. However, as a society we must maintain a basic respect for humanity that shows no bias. Otherwise, the lofty moral values we so profess to uphold cannot exist in the first place.
[This message has been edited by -Thoth (edited 29 August 2001).]
 
BMW... are you telling me that someone who rapes hasnt got a mental problem. I think they are "sick" because 1. They are dirty little chicken shit motherfuckers 2. They must be mentally unstable to rape a girl at knifepoint 3. THEY ARE FUCKING SICK LITTLE BASTARDS who a probably insecure about the size of their little dicks.
So... YES.. THEY FALL UNDER THE TITLE OF SICK.
And I dun care if you say only people wha r mentally ill are "sick" CAUSE that's what they fucking ARE!
SICK
SICK
SICK
 
ummmmmmm, let's not get into semantics or make wild generalisations now.......
rape can take many forms, and while it is the same crime it does not mean that all those who commit it are the same. not all people who commit rape are mentally ill, and this is what BMW was referring to by the term sick.
bfb - what about a husband raping his wife? he might think it is his RIGHT to have sex with his wife whenever HE pleases..... i don't think that makes him "sick" - it certainly says something about the way women are sometimes still conceptualised in our society (ie. as property)
 
*pulls out dictionary*
ah....now this thread makes sense.
wink.gif

------------------
Shut up. If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I would have farted.
 
being date raped or raped by your husband is horrible enough - but being raped over and over by up to 30 different men - i can't find words to decribe how horrific that would be.
What really disturbs me is that these guys who got easy sentences probably didn't just rape this one girl - they were probably involved in many other gang rapes. So far, there have been something like 40 reported cases of these gang rapes, and they're all likely to be by the same offenders.
As for them being 'sick' - i don't know if that's the right word. sick is someone who murders someone then mutilates the body. But for somebody to believe that it is acceptable to violate a woman like that - i can't believe that they can be 'psychologically sound'.
here's another issue - the press are saying that these are racially motivated crimes. What do you all think of that?
 
"Sick" and "monster" is a word we use to discribe criminals whose actions leave us in distaste. Its a defence mechanism to distance ourselves psychologically from the perpitrators of these acts. We cannot deal with the fact that potentially within all of us could lurk such a demon.
 
^^^ very true
But I look at it this way, selfish to an extent I know.
I strongly believe in the death penalty for serial murder offenders and any extreme cases. I don't believe in rehabilitation. It's not so much an eye for an eye, more that they're a risk and a burden on society. They shouldn't have a chance to ever get back to society, and yeah they might not have a good time in prison but they cost us an astromonical amount, both during their time in prison and going through the courts system.
As for sex offenders and pedophiles (sp) they should be castrated, have I am a rapist/pedophile tatooed on their forehead and be forced to have a sign outside their house at all times. These people are the lowest of the low. No excuses. Their lives should be as miserable as possible. It's unthinkable that they have a chance to live a normal life.
Now I know it is an extremist view and I respect that this is not the view of many others. We all have some evilness inside us, nothing is black and white, we're all grey. But we should know the difference between right and wrong. These offences are unacceptable in our society, no matter the origins of the person.
Yes these offenders are also loved ones to somebody but even if it was a family member, my views would remain the same. I wouldn't try to excuse their behaviour by saying they were insane.
 
I don't know... The death penalty fails on logical grounds even if the humanitarian ones are not convincing.
It costs far more to execute criminals than a lifetime of imprisonment due to the court processes that are neccesary.
Also, I think deliberately fostering hate amongst the community for certain criminals is ultimately flawed aswell. In Britain the house of a paediatrician (specialist child doctor)was burned and defaced due to the fact that the ignorant vigilante mob was under the mistaken impression that a paediatrician was another word for paedeophile... At the end of the day, I do not see the rational basis for revenge, it uncovers a cruel side to our personalities that seems to share more similarities with the criminals actions themselves (causing misery). Despite the fact I have never been religious... Old JC and the Dali Lama have a lot to teach us about tolerance and compassion.
Hate only breeds further hate.
 
interesting comments about the difference between justice and revenge Thoth...
however, stepping into the shoes of someone who has been raped, i am going to be scarred for the rest of my life. i am going to be tormented by one night of my life for a damn long time - if not for my entire life.
one in a situation like this is not going to be 'cured' or ridded of the pain when the offenders suffer a lifetime of imprisonment.
i believe the concept of revenge is what will spring to mind on many circumstances... its natural... think about it. youre a father, youre daughter is in her early-mid teens. she goes out with her boyfriend to a party for the first time. she doesnt come home when shes supposed to, and in the morning you find out that in a drunken stupor, he raped her. <-- looking at your daughter, watching the pain that is undoubtly tearing her apart - how are YOU going to feel? correct me if im wrong, but justifiably or not, what sort of parent is not going to feel an overbearing sense to obtain serious revenge?
i know i would.
then take the picture that it wasnt a young male with the wrong ideas in his mind, pushed over the edge by too much alcohol - it was about 30 adult males, perfectly capable of understanding the rules of society, and if not COMMON FUCKING SENSE, savagely assaulting your daughter on numerous occasions, leaving her in a damaged state mentally and physically, possibly infected with STD's, afraid of sex (something which should be based upon passion, enjoyment, love and sensation - NOT power and assault) for a deal of time, afraid to walk down the street alone... and many many more.
depending on the severity of the occasion, it could even be said that the detrimental effect upon someones life caused by rape is worse than death. granted a death will affect the persons friends and family in a worse way, yet, is that person not free from the suffering?
i do not understand the variety of punishments and sentences that can possibly be dealt to criminals enough to give a knowledgable suggestion about what sort of sentence these people should recieve... yet personally i feel that revenge is necessary and to a certain extent justifiable. the offender should suffer, not just do time or pay fines. money is time and time is life, yet, is 3 years in prison going to change the headspace of someone who made such a disrespectful and utterly wrong fuken decision in the first place? if capable to make that sort of decision, then they will always be capable of doing so. in my opinion the only way to control people is fear. a little off the topic, but the reason children arent anywhere near as disciplined as 50 years ago is because they dont fear a teachers lecture, a parents smack, a detention and i think the same logic is applicable here. criminals are not afraid of the justice system, because to do such detrimental damage to a girl - and most likely enjoy it, they recieve two years in prison. they do not fear revenge because of the extent of their gangs etc.
oh my god ive waffled on..
basically, i think that causing so much pain is inexcusable and should be met with a severe punihsment. severe meaning painful.
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ill sullup now!
 
Yes... I would have to agree.
We can sit and discuss the death penalty and all that and how it's wrong ot it's right. But when something this horrible happens to home it changes everything, as some of you may know.
A husband raping his wife? Rape is Rape. If a wife does not consent to sex, doesnt mean the husband has any right to rape her. Just because they are a couple doesnt mean they can o anything they want to each other.
So I don't think the death penelty would be appropriate. Sometimes we can become as evil and twisted as the criminals we try to catch. But this is mainly due to a desire for revenge. Castration..yes.. I can see that. I always think public humiliation is they key. Let them suffer. Tattoo RAPIST on their forehead.......... and for those of you who think that is wrong because it will bring lifetime humiliation and degrades that person as a human.... well.... just think of the girl.
And think of my friend who can't prosecute the guy because he is to rich and will do MORE than rape her if she tries......
 
I beleive these rapes are racially motivated, the mentality DOES exist in SOME young arab males from muslim backgrounds of superiority and coupled with their gang mentality, the victims of these rapes ARE targeted because of their race... in the paper a victim said that her attackers during the assualt were saying things like "how do you like being fucked LEB style" and "how do you like LEB dick, its much better then AUSSIE dick"
they dont rape their own kind for they feel all none muslim women are whores and are allready going to hell (i think someone has said this allready)... even in lebanon a white women will be harrassed, leered at... now please dont think im generalising, im only stating that this mentality does exist.
its also been mentioned that its also some part of gang intiation, which wouldnt suprise me. ive grown up in and around the inner west of sydney, Ive never heard of anything like this happening in the inner west, where the lebanese population is predominantly catholic, where further around bankstown alot more of the newer muslim immigrants have settled, and the majority of these people are on the most part law abiding citizens. but there are rotten eggs in every bunch and in this case they happen to be pack rapists with callous regard for others and a lack of respect for the people of the country they live in....
while discussing punishment, i beleive that the issues surrounding WHY this sort of mentality exists and HOW we can stop it from happening furtherare even more important, its not just rapes, its harressment of caucasion youths, its the general anti australian feeling held by not just arabs youths, but the elder's as well. with issues like this, its important not to let political correctness get in the way. NO ONE is saying that every leb is a rapist. what they are saying is that the criminals are of lebanese-muslim extraction, however i feel its wrong to mention muslim, because its not like we say a "caucasion catholic rapist"... while the people who are doing it may be muslim, that is irrelevant... and its upset a whole community and it was stupid to mention muslim and turn into a much bigger issue then it is, its turned the situation of US and THEM, its pittet community against community, which stops the intial problem from being solved as quickly as possible
my $2.98c
[This message has been edited by Stylin (edited 30 August 2001).]
 
(Posted on behalf of ~ChuppaChup~: apologies on the formatting CC - I just cut and pasted. BigTrancer
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)
~ChuppaChup~ posted:
BFB: it is important not to call people who commit these kind of crimes as 'sick'. for those of us in the field of psychology and/or criminology 'sick' refers to someone who has a mental illness or some kind of neurological disorder and its about time the public takes this view point as well as ppl with mental illnesses deserve this recognition (and disctinction) from ppl who commit these types of acts. as they are not the same.
now i don't know the particulars on how old the perpetrators were at the time of the offense. but i think its horrific that they aren't even serving out their sentances in an adult prison. what you all talk about of them getting raped in prison would well and duely happen in adult prison...but VERY unlikely in a youth one.
youth prisons (usually not even called a prison) are much more free then a real prison would be. you generally get to go to school..even tafe courses/uni paid for out of tax payers money..HSC ect all out of out pockets. some even have swimmin pools/big screen tv's. more then an avg person would have.
i'm not sure that i agree about the death penalty for any crime..cept those involving psycopaths/sociopaths. but the prob that lies there is finding out if they are truely one or not as many have IQ's higher then avg (high enuff to qualify for mensa generally) and therefore can fool anyone into thinking anything. its a very scary thought.
sex offenders generally are not 'ill' and therefor 'can' be habilitated (i agree wif you bmw that they never learned what they needed to from the beginning). however earning somefin after the age it is generally learned requires a lot of effort on the participants part of wanting to learn it and generally takes a lot longer. so then the question is raised...what do we do if they aren't sincere in wanting to habilitate?
do we keep them in prison until they are? do we use the death penalty then? or what happens, as it does in the US a lot, that they just do what they need to do to get let out of prison? so that they can go reoffend yet again?
rape is a very touchy issue. and i beleive it is prolly more serious then murder. this is because once a person is murdered their personal pain and suffering is gone as they are now none existant,yes it does continue on for family members and loved ones BUT this is also true of those close to someone who has been raped. yet the rape victim is stil alive and dealing with the torture they once endured for their entire life.
i'm not sure that anyone can fully get over such a thing. it is always there and it affects all facets of your life whether you are aware of it or not.
i think the criminal justice system needs to look at (and pay) for the treatment of both the criminal and the victim in most cases such as this. todays' society is still so focused on the ciminal and not yet much on the victim and its the victim that needs the help yet no money is spent there.
this is starting to turn around in places like canada and the US but its a slow process.
i think that the justice system here is soo new to many of these types of crimes (As well as those of that drunk driver who keeps getting his liscence back) that they need to, rite from the beginning, site cases of precidence from countries such as england and canada
(this is perfectly legal and is used in england and canada all the time when they cant find a precendece already existing in the country where the case is) to create a good preceidence here as soon as the first case comes up. otherwise you end up with situations like this one where the sentances ARE a complete joke!! anyone 16 or over who commits an 'adult' act(behavoir) (and yes sex is an adult behavoir) should AUTOMATICALLY get sentanced in an adult prison.
~ChuppaChup~
 
actually, reintegrative shaming has been shown to be a successful method in dealing with some criminals and some crimes - one example being domestic violence. but i still feel the focus should be the reintegration - thus tattooing would not be desirable (IMFHO) because it would never allow the person full integration back into society - and that leads us to ask what it is we really want to achieve with criminals - rehabilitation (or "habilitation" as BMW pointed out), is is justice, is it revenge..... (and if so revenge - what does that really achieve?? - serious, i'm interested to know what people think).
it is very easy to dismiss theory and statistics on the grounds of emotive arguments - and believe me, i am not trying to negate or diminish in any way any person's experiences of rape - words cannot describe how i feel about this issue. i DO have some very close friends who have been raped (there, have i established my credibility to discuss this issue now????) BUT - it is important to realise that while the ramifications of rape spread not only from the victim but to his/her family, friends etc. it also spreads from the assailant and to his/her family/friends etc. - the act is not limitted to the two (or more) people involved.
an example (although not about rape) - my mother used to be a director or a child care centre and there was a case where a woman had to withdraw her child from the centre because she could not afford the fees. the woman's husband had been sent to jail for robbery (i think, don't quote) leaving the woman with no means of support. instead, the woman had to turn to prostitution to support herself and her very young family. what this demonstrates is how there are other victim's of crimes that are never talked or thought about - do we think about the rapist's family? his/her friends? or don't they deserve mention at all.....
righto, i'm off to work now - but in closing, i would like to say that theory IS very important - it drives, informs and shapes our policies and laws.... dun dismiss it just coz it doesn't fit with emotions or certain experiences and/or beliefs (no personal dig there, just a plea for understanding)
bk
 
you people are so off the point its not funny..... why are you trying to analise these people... everyone knows what your saying, and the greater issues are WHY this happening and HOW you can stop it, true punishment is relevant, but i dont think classing them etc. is relevant, whats relevant is that there are racially motivated gang rapes occuring...
people often try to look at the bigger picture at the neglect of the smaller issues, which are part of the big picture....
these rapes are different to normal rapes
its a bit similar to in the 1970's black panthers were raping white women to make a political point, now of course im not saying that these youths in sydney are trying to do this, but this is an example of racially motivated gang rapes.....
im semi brain dead now
will write more probably
 
^^^
Sorry Stylin, you seem off the point. I cannot even fathom what you are driving at. That post is incoherence... What was your problem with theory again? Give us something to work with.
So far we have only one documented incidence of gang-rape, which you feel must be race related. What is the deal about talking about 'rapes' in the plural sense like there is more than one, and comparing it to some organised broader racial hate crime being committed by members of the Arab community? Your reference to the black panthers seems particulary unusual... Jesus, you are making half this shit up as you go on a mish-mash of assumptions you don't even know!
[This message has been edited by -Thoth (edited 30 August 2001).]
 
look at my earlier post, your trying to analyse rapists and appropiate punishment
but isnt the issue "gang rapes in sydney"
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???
or was it never to begin with and you guys were just talking about rapists ???
and im wayyy off topic
*shrugs* hehehehe
ahh welleties
 
"these rapes are different to normal rapes"
Stylin....that statement horrifies me.....there is no such thing as a "typical" rape (cos it seems ur using normal in the "typical" sense of the word)...there are lots of different classifications and categories which rapes and rapists can be put into.....but I think once you start talking about them in terms of "typical" or "non-typical", you start treading in some pretty dangerous murky water......
Methinks we all need to think carefully before we use certain terms.......
 
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