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Flag desecration, and how about it?

Well not so much as stirring shit as taking a view I disagree with and seeing if I can make a decent argument on its behalf. Shame on you for thinking my pride in the US would overcome my beliefs in small government and freedom. I usually cant do this bc of my views on things are usually pretty clear but this one is a gamble with patriotism in a bare knuckle match against freedom of speech.
 
Droppersneck said:
Almost every other country has laws in its books against flag desecration. It is a abhorrent act and I would venture to say 99% of the people that desecrate the U.S. flag have no idea about how lucky they are that they were born here and not in n Korea or Scotland ffs.
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That's what pisses me off too... Some people don't even appreciate the amount of freedom they have here. It's cases like this that do unfortunately make me question whether too much freedom is a bad thing sometimes because people just want to abuse it. I think overall freedom is important, but no one is truly free to do whatever they want that lives as a part of society in any country. Every country has laws and regulations. Either way, here we have people crying about their right to desecrate the national flag, while over in North Korea someone's being executed for watching the wrong movie. :\ If you don't like it here do something constructive about it or leave. Burning the flag isn't accomplishing anything other than making yourself look like a fucktard.
 
nuttynutskin said:
Some people don't even appreciate the amount of freedom they have here.
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like the freedom to burn the flag? that kind of freedom? i am sure you're right - some people probably do take their freedom for granted. but that doesn't mean that freedom is any less their right than yours.
nuttynutskin said:
Either way, here we have people crying about their right to desecrate the national flag...
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why do you choose to characterize it as 'crying'? it's a discussion of a controversial subject and you just devalue it when you reduce it this way. are the people on the other aside of this debate crying about the flag being burned?
nuttynutskin said:
...while over in North Korea someone's being executed for watching the wrong movie.
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let's hope the u.s. doesn't urn into n. korea then. you know what's illegal in n. korea? you got it - burning the flag. it's also illegal in china, cuba and iran. that's a list you want to get the u.s. on to? nice.
nuttynutskin said:
If you don't like it here do something constructive about it or leave. Burning the flag isn't accomplishing anything other than making yourself look like a fucktard.
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more nice attitude. maybe it does accomplish something, you just don't understand what it is? maybe it's patriotic in a way you can not or will never understand?

alasdair
 
Ironic picture undermines flag desecration amendment
that piece said:
Ironic picture undermines flag desecration amendment

The picture underneath the headline "Honoring our flag and our veterans" in the November 12 Herald-Times presents an ironic challenge for those who propose a constitutional amendment to ban flag burning, or more broadly, flag desecration. The large picture features several flags being burned, a practice outlined in the U.S. Flag Code regarding how to properly retire a flag.

And yet, if those same flags were burned as part of a political protest criticizing American foreign policy, a flag desecration amendment would make that burning illegal. So what makes a "good" flag burning different from a "bad" flag burning? The answer is simple: whether a flag burning is good or bad - or in the case of a flag desecration amendment, legal or illegal - depends on the motivation and thoughts of the person doing the burning. If the intent is to respectfully retire a flag, you are fine. If the intent is to dishonor the flag, you are on the wrong side of the law.

Despite the argument made by some that a flag desecration amendment would ban conduct rather than speech, the contrast between burning a flag to retire it and burning a flag to disrespect it proves that argument to be false. Clearly, the purpose of a flag desecration amendment is to criminalize a message that many people find offensive. Even if the vast majority of the American people agree that the message is offensive, do we really need to undermine the principles established by the First Amendment by censoring that message?

The beauty of the Bill of Rights is that it was written not to grant rights to the American people, but to make it illegal for government to restrict the rights that our founding fathers assumed we had by nature of being human beings. In fact, when our founding fathers seceded from England, they wrote; "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights." The Declaration of Independence goes on to state that the purpose of government is "to secure these rights."

This is why it is such a bad idea to amend the Constitution to restrict the right to dissent against the government, even with an offensive message. A flag desecration amendment would pervert the purpose of the Constitution, which is to limit government, and instead use the highest law in the land to limit the rights of individuals. That has been done only once before, with Prohibition, and the results were less than ideal. That amendment was repealed within a generation.

Let's be honest here. There is no compelling state interest that justifies a constitutional amendment to ban flag desecration. Given the small number of cases annually, this is little more than politicians exploiting patriotism to gain a few votes and attack their opponents. While feelings might be hurt, no one's rights are violated when someone desecrates an American flag. There is no right to not be offended, and political correctness is just as destructive when practiced by the Right as when practiced by the Left.

The American flag does not represent a people or a territory. The American flag represents a set of values that makes this country unique. The United States of America is more than just a nation. America is an idea and a standard of freedom. Limiting political speech, no matter how offensive that speech might be, is a far more serious desecration of the American flag than a childish individual who lights a flag on fire to get attention and make people angry.
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(my emphasis)

alasdair
 
nuttynutskin said:
If you don't like it here do something constructive about it or leave.
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my way or the highway?

"Our democracy is strong because we tolerate all peaceful forms of expression, no matter how uncomfortable they make us feel or how much we disagree. The U.S. Supreme Court has affirmed and reaffirmed that the right to desecrate the flag is included in the Constitution’s protection of speech.

Flag burning and desecration is offensive precisely because it is political. Experience shows that the way to fight political expression with which one disagrees is not to outlaw it, as Congress has repeatedly sought to do, but to express disapproval." (my emphasis. source)

i'll be over here preserving, protecting and defending the constitution of the united states, nutty. what are you doing?

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
let's hope the u.s. doesn't urn into n. korea then. you know what's illegal in n. korea? you got it - burning the flag. it's also illegal in china, cuba and iran. that's a list you want to get the u.s. on to? nice.
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In North Korea I'm pretty sure the punishment is death, I'm not sure about the other countries. But I would be perfectly fine if it were just a fine and maybe some community service you know? Then they would actually be accomplishing something. Either that or they could just pour gasoline on themselves and set themselves on fire instead of the flag as a statement.
 
^ i guess the moment something makes you uncomfortable or you disagree with it, freedom's out of the window? pretty weaksauce for the land of the free...

freedom of expression is great when a guy's talking about how awesome bon jovi are. it's when it make you uncomfortable or offends you that it really starts to mean something. it's being able to embrace the freedom even when you disagree what it's being used for that makes it great.

alasdair
 
You can express freedom without desecrating your country's flag. Someone could come up to me and tell me a political opinion that I don't agree with and while I might debate it I wouldn't care, but if I saw someone burning the flag I would undoubtedly have a problem with them and want to throw bricks at their head. I would bet money that the majority of Americans would feel the same. If I went outside right now and lit an American flag on fire I think it would be safe to assume I would have a bunch of neighbors wanting to kick my ass, and that's how it should be. All of this is just my opinion of course.
 
nuttynutskin said:
You can express freedom without desecrating your country's flag.
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of course you can. but how gloriously you totally miss the point.

we're starting to go in circles now. thank goodness the constitution and the u.s. supreme court disagree with you.

which other constitutionally protected rights do you think u.s. citizens should have taken away, nutty?

the irony of the anti-flag burning opinion is totally lost on its proponents, obviously.

alasdair
 
-=SS=- said:
I think the fact people see it as OK to burn in protest (in the USA/UK) shows how far we've slid in the past 2 generations to be honest. No real pride in ones nation any more
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Well, how have the actions and cultures of our respective countries changed in the previous two generations? Are the US and UK the same states they were previous to the second world war? The UK (as an outsider looking in) seems to have changed quite a bit for the better and for the worse. Much of it's former empire is now independent and not subject to brutal repression and iron-fisted economic exploitation, health services have improved dramatically. On the other hand, austerity has been slowly eroding the worker's and social rights that were once an example for Europe to follow. The US has a very similar but much more drastic history over the past 60 years. It's not the same shining example of freedom it once was. It's gone from a mostly isolationist foreign policy to a globally dominant military force. The rules keeping capitalism in check have been slowly stripped away and the very small ruling class is now a functioning oligarchy. We've constructed the most elaborate and invasive system of domestic surveillance that the world has ever seen (Stalin would have a field day with this sort of system). Culturally, reality TV and celebrity gossip has largely replaced substantial literature and film. I can find many things that would have made me a proud American if America were still America.

This is all beside the point, of course.

(To me) A purposeful demonstration in burning an American flag in public is a demonstration that the country still fucking stands for something, not to show that it no longer does.
 
My view on this is reaaal simple. If you care about what the flag represents, then you should be against criminalizing the burning of it. That doesn't mean you have to LIKE that people do it, disagree with what you say but defend to the death and all that stuff right?

It's a matter of free speech and the right to protest, and agree or not, this is a form of protest. That there are other ways of protesting is immaterial.
 
I have a couple of questions I think are relevant.

Do American school kids swear allegiance to the flag every day? If the answer is 'some of them' can someone quantify roughly how many? How does opting out on an individual student basis work in practice? What states opt out totally (and why) if it's done on a state by state basis?

And finally...for those who want to throw bricks at the heads of flag burners...how much do you believe your socialisation has led you to this belief? Or do you really think you thought up the allegiance to a piece of material (made in Taiwan) all by yourself?
 
JessFR said:
My view on this is reaaal simple. If you care about what the flag represents, then you should be against criminalizing the burning of it. That doesn't mean you have to LIKE that people do it, disagree with what you say but defend to the death and all that stuff right?

It's a matter of free speech and the right to protest, and agree or not, this is a form of protest. That there are other ways of protesting is immaterial.
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very succinctly put, jessfr.

i keep coming back to bardo's comment that it is the perfect test. it truly is.

alasdair
 
nuttynutskin said:
You can express freedom without desecrating your country's flag. Someone could come up to me and tell me a political opinion that I don't agree with and while I might debate it I wouldn't care, but if I saw someone burning the flag I would undoubtedly have a problem with them and want to throw bricks at their head. I would bet money that the majority of Americans would feel the same. If I went outside right now and lit an American flag on fire I think it would be safe to assume I would have a bunch of neighbors wanting to kick my ass, and that's how it should be. All of this is just my opinion of course.
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Agree with this. I just can not see how it is a productive act, it strikes me as very childish and an inverted way of dealing with whatever problem there is. Of course the right to burn it should be there, but why go there in the first place? Burning the flag in Iraq if you're a pissed of citizen, that I can understand completely.. you hate the nations government and its people for allowing such acts.. justified. Burning it if you're an American citizen? Unless you're a homeless person who needs some heat I just don't see the point of the act aside from wanting to cause a fuss/get attention.. in which case I don't have much sympathy if a brick comes hurtling in your direction.
 
-=SS=- said:
I just can not see......I just don't see the point...
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something on which you and i can agree.
-=SS=- said:
...aside from wanting to cause a fuss/get attention.
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there's a pattern here. you've decided you understand better than gays why they want to be married. their feelings and opinions are irrelevant because you understand the gay mentality better than the gays.

now you've decided that you know the motivation of somebody with whom you disagree exercising their constitutionally-protected freedom of expression better than they do. they just want to get attention. i don't see how it could be anything other than that therefore it can't be anything other than that.

who's up next? teachers hoping to get a paid more for the important job they do?

your insight into what goes on inside everybody else's head and heart is, well, it's unique, ss.

alasdair
 
I'm more interested in WHY people feel the desire to do it, my first instinct is that it's a deliberate attempt to piss people off, and by extension draw attention to their cause. But it seems to me usually their cause is dissatisfaction with the federal government, or the american people as an average. I think it's a slight difference in philosophy. I hate the federal government too, but unlike those that see the flag as synonymous with federal government, I see the flag in opposition to the way the federal government tends to behave, at least as far as congress and the executive goes. I feel the flag represents the ideals of the United States and the constitution, not the morons and assholes in the federal executive. I suspect those that feel the need to burn the flag however feel that the flag represents the horrible things the federal government has done. And as for the american people, well that's a failure to recognize that stupid people exist everywhere.

I think of it as a fairly immature way to protest, but I will always defend their right to do it.

Note: The above is expressed from an American standpoint, but having lived outside the US for a very long time, I'm well aware of how some of the outside world view these kinds of issues. For example StoneHappyMonday, I get what you're saying but I believe you're mistaken. I've lived in Australia a long time since I was moved here, and in Australia I'm fairly sure there is no pledge of allegiance equivalent, despite that however I have seen Australians get pissed off by flag burning too, as well as express patriotism on par with the US, especially in more recent years. It's a slightly different kind of patriotism, but it's still pretty intense sometimes. Speaking for only myself, my allegiance to the flag is to the principles of american philosophies of freedom and the constitution, not the country as represented by the boneheads in office. No the US does not have a monopoly on freedom, but one thing I have noted strongly from at least the Australian perspective, freedom means very different things to different people. And my beliefs are in the philosophy of freedom from an american viewpoint. Other cultures have different views. In either case it is likely a result of cultural socialization for most.
 
-=SS=- said:
Yeh, you trying to provoke a reaction after every one of my posts you happen to personally disagree with. It's really fucking tiring. Stop it.
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i'm not trying to provoke a reaction. we're engaged in a dialogue and that means posting your opinion and hearing the opinions of others. and that iterates.

if you only want to hear from people who agree with you or you just want to be told you're right all the time, the internet is probably not the place for you.

alasdair
 
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