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Flag desecration, and how about it?

-=SS=- said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the right to be able to do it without being punished. I just don't see why a citizen of the country would want do it.. I mean surely you're protesting because you're unhappy with some element of the government or how things are being conducted right? The flag represents the nation and an ideal/model we're all trying to help build together, right? So why burn the flag that represents what we're all working towards, when the problem is some douchenozzle in office who's screwing things up?

I understand why people in other nations burn America's or GB's flag, I just don't get why people in the actual nations would do it.. I mean even though I disagree with a lot of what my country is doing and has been for a long time I still wouldn't burn the flag. Not because I'm a patriot or care that much, not at all.. but I still recognize this country affords me something that I take for granted every day.. certain personal and economic freedoms.. and burning the flag just feels like I would be pissing on all the people who make this country what it is (and those in the past), you know?

The flag/nation to me is like a wider family. You wouldn't burn your own family crest would you? If someone in the family was being a dick and ruining the name of the family you'd challenge them and do something about it wouldn't you? I guess what I'm getting at is that flag burning by a citizen seems like a failure of pride in ones wider context.
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Which do you feel would be a better family member?

Someone who donates and volunteers most of their time to the citizens of this country, but burns the flag nightly or someone who only cares about themselves, doesn't really donate or volunteer, but praises the flag nightly? How people treat each other is really what matters at the end of the day, not how we treat a piece of fabric or what we do to an inanimate object. People do stupid shit that we don't agree with, as long as it's not harming another person, what does it matter?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying you can't be upset about other people doing it but in the end, if they are a good person that does good things, it doesn't really matter does it?
 
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LuGoJ said:
Which do you feel would be a better family member?

Someone who donates and volunteers most of their time to the citizens of this country, but burns the flag nightly or someone who only cares about themselves, doesn't really donate or volunteer, but praises the flag nightly? How people treat each other is really what matters at the end of the day, not how we treat a piece of fabric or what we do to an inanimate object. People do stupid shit that we don't agree with, as long as it's not harming another person, what does it matter?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying you can't be upset about other people doing it but in the end, if they are a good person that does good things, it doesn't really matter does it?
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Does it matter? No, I mean the world won't stop turning if someone burns coloured cloth. I just think it's a reflection of social decline when citizens resort to burning their nations flag. It's good to have it as a symbol of something to contribute towards in a positive way, to build a better society and so forth.. I see it as a talisman of sorts, something we should be trying to pour soul into rather than destroying out of frustration.

If someone burns the flag I won't be personally offended but I understand why people do get upset by it. Aside from the blind patriots there are people who I think see it as that sort of talisman, a symbol of something to works towards, and someone burning it communicates a lack of pride and cohesion. It just comes across as childish to me and not really that constructive. I'd rather see people marching with the flag, with a sense of pride and purpose to set things right, than those just burning it out of frustration.
 
I thought people fought for civil liberties and such not for a piece of fabric. Freedom of expression sometimes means doing things that piss people off so this guy is just being a Nationalist arsehole really
 
-=SS=- said:
Does it matter? No, I mean the world won't stop turning if someone burns coloured cloth. I just think it's a reflection of social decline when citizens resort to burning their nations flag. It's good to have it as a symbol of something to contribute towards in a positive way, to build a better society and so forth.. I see it as a talisman of sorts, something we should be trying to pour soul into rather than destroying out of frustration.

If someone burns the flag I won't be personally offended but I understand why people do get upset by it. Aside from the blind patriots there are people who I think see it as that sort of talisman, a symbol of something to works towards, and someone burning it communicates a lack of pride and cohesion. It just comes across as childish to me and not really that constructive. I'd rather see people marching with the flag, with a sense of pride and purpose to set things right, than those just burning it out of frustration.
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I can identify with part of what you are saying. I just think these sort of things irk me less for whatever reason.
 
I wonder what the reasoning behind the actual flag-standing is.

In a way, people standing on the US flag as a way of- what?- disrespecting it? Questioning authority? Mocking its apparent sanctity? are also reinforcing that sanctity or, at least, the misperception of its sanctity. For me, I would be unable to mock or desecrate a flag simply because they have no meaning for me. If I stood on a countries flag, it would simply be me standing on a piece of fabric; I could know more mock it then I could my own socks. Australia has a very different idea about our flag; it is for many an empty symbol. There has been a slightly disturbing trend whereby people get the Southern Cross tattooed on themselves- something I find pretty absurd but its a good and quick way of determining whether I'll engage a person or not:\. Patriotism can be a refuge for the weak and ignorant, and can conceal negative prejudice behind a positive, pro-country stance. Its often a way of disliking The Other rather then claiming bond with fellow countrymen. Or at least its easily perverted into bigotry.

The test of a strong and useful nation is its ability to take mockery, dissent, satire, parody and contrary views in its stride without either censure or excessive placation. A true progressive nation would be encouraging that sort of behaviour as a way of further defining itself and its values. After all, in a democracy, the government serves the people. How else can it reflect upon itself if criticism isn't tolerated and the people are unable to communicate to the government they chose?
 
-=SS=- said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the right to be able to do it without being punished. I just don't see why a citizen of the country would want do it.. I mean surely you're protesting because you're unhappy with some element of the government or how things are being conducted right?
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I don't think one even has to be unhappy about the current state of affairs to do it. But sometimes our rights have to be tested, otherwise they whither and die, don't they? Some people may do it out of spite, but it's not always the case. Until 1990 (I believe) it was actually illegal to desecrate the flag, as in it was against the law to show discontent or to even make a point by destroying the flag. In the same way that 2nd amendment proponents openly carry their firearms into public establishments (perhaps offending or frightening other patrons), it's important to test the public's perception of free speech. There are other ways to test the freedom of speech, but none so symbolic.


The flag/nation to me is like a wider family. You wouldn't burn your own family crest would you? If someone in the family was being a dick and ruining the name of the family you'd challenge them and do something about it wouldn't you? I guess what I'm getting at is that flag burning by a citizen seems like a failure of pride in ones wider context.
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I understand that there are many nationalists, and that they may be offended. Personally, I don't feel that my country in particular is my wider family or "team" anymore than I do the rest of the world, I just happen to live here. At the same time, I understand that I run the risk of catching a lot of shit, either verbally or physically for doing such a thing.
 
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I really don't get why Americans treat the actual material flag itself like it's sacred. Unless it actually means something such as the right to desecrate it because many Americans died trying to protect peoples right to do such things then it's not really worth that much.

Then again Canadians can be uptight about it too. When we took down the Canadian flag over the House of assembly here Canadians that never noticed us before at all went off their head. So i guess we have our rabid nationalists as well and it is a good way to get attention.
 
nuttynutskin said:
I agree with him. It's disrespectful and a slap in the face to anyone who's served or has family that have served or god forbid lost their lives. Whether you agree with what's going on politically with the U.S. at least have some fucking respect. Just like any other country the U.S. isn't perfect, but like he said, if you hate it here so much move to a different country. I'm mostly in favor when it comes to things related to freedom of speech and expression but sometimes the morons that want to push it make me reconsider. What exactly is stomping on the flag going to accomplish anyways? It's about akin to a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum. If anyone thinks they're making some great political statement in doing so I think they've greatly deluded themselves.
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I have never burned a flag and never plan to, but I want the option to do so without a bunch of blindly patriotic people forming a lynch mob. It might sound ironic, but one of the reasons I hated living in the US and wanted to go to another country so bad was this reason. Too many people have attitudes like this. Half the country goes apeshit when somebody expresses their freedom of speech by burning a flag. Too many people hate the freedoms the flag is supposed to represent.
 
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I also don't feel the compulsion to stop where I am (be it an elevator, hallway etc) to stop and hold my beating heart for 50 seconds while a pop diva shows her impressive range during the national anthem or double decker Taco Bell Halftime show. I feel a lot of life long psychological conditioning at work here. If we really wanted to support the troops we should stop sending them to fight frivolous wars in the first place, bring them home and take the utmost care of them upon returning. It's so easy to plaster a yellow ribbon on your bumper or say "god bless the troops" without doing a goddamn thing to prevent such support from even being necessary to begin with, like I dunno, protesting the war from the start?

I remember being a 13 year old child pointing out the holes in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan despite the clear pro-war media bias and being pretty much isolated by my peers regarding the position at the time.
 
nuttynutskin said:
...if you hate it here so much move to a different country.
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what makes you and shane lawler think you have some monopoly on what it means to love america?

maybe people who burn the flag - exercising their constitutionally protected right to freedom of expression - love america just as deeply as you do, they just choose to express themselves in a different way?

what kind of freedom is your freedom when it means the moment you're troubled by what somebody is saying, you seek to limit it? it's all so ironic, it would be funny if it wasn't so damn sad.

just because somebody burns a flag doesn't mean they hate america. freedom of expression is enshrined in the first amendment. the very first one. i'm not so arrogant as to imagine i fully know what the framers intended but it seems obvious they thought this one was pretty important. again: "It is poignant but fundamental that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt."

Bardeaux said:
If we really wanted to support the troops we should stop sending them to fight frivolous wars in the first place, bring them home and take the utmost care of them upon returning.
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amen.
Bardeaux said:
It's so easy to plaster a yellow ribbon on your bumper or say "god bless the troops" without doing a goddamn thing to prevent such support from even being necessary to begin with, like I dunno, protesting the war from the start?
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i agree - it can be such an empty gesture.

alasdair
 
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nuttynutskin, you and i seem to disagree on, well, just about everything. can't we agree that it's great where we live in a country where we're free to disagree? where we're free to express that disagreement publicly? where we're free to express our dissatisfaction with our government - and with america - in ways that some might find offensive?

it can be hard sometimes but abandoning our beliefs and throwing in the towel just because things get a little challenging doesn't seem, to me, well it just doesn't seem very american...

alasdair
 
I do not give a flying fuck about a damn flag. I've printed out paper flags just so I could burn the damn things. I would not waste my money buying a flag to burn though. And that is all I need to say. Like who gives a fuck? If I want to express my dislike and anger toward the corrupt political system by burning a flag I'll do it. I might go burn a paper flag later just for the Hell of it.
 
i do give a fuck about the flag. it's a powerful symbol. a symbol of freedom. like the freedom to burn the flag in protest.

"It is poignant but fundamental that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt."

alasdair
 
Liberals/ the far left typically equates patriotism with blind ignorant nationalism. The idea of having respect for cultures is not to be applied domestically Bc we are the problem we always have been the problem. Have a drawing contest of Allah of course people deserve to be killed over it. Take away my right to burn our flag that's just plain fascist we do not deserve that respect look at what we have done to every other country. I will burn a flag after I get done eating my cheetoes and playing my Xbox Bc whiney millennial adult children moochers will one day run this piece.

End rant
 
if "because the second amendment says i can" is an acceptable answer to the question "why do you have a gun?" then "because the first amendment says i can" should be an acceptable answer to the question "why do you burn the flag?"

alasdair
 
It's just a flag. Getting angry at its desecration perpetuates the very reason for doing it. The flag is not a totem, and it kind of annoys me that there are people who want to ban flag desecration who couldn't list the Bill of Rights, to say nothing of the way the government and the people it leads thumb their noses at the Constitution daily, intentionally and unintentionally. But hey, we gotta protect the flag, right?

I would never do it, myself. But with everything else on our society's plate, this is not the hill to die on.
 
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