Flag desecration, and how about it?

[Bardeaux]

So I found the video below which explained that there's a new "challenge" trend on social media that I was unaware of which calls for people to stand on the US flag. This guy's response:



What do you think?

Personally, I couldn't disagree more. The flag itself is just a piece of fabric. If the ideals represented by the flag do not allow me the freedom to burn (or even stand on) the piece of fabric as a statement, then the flag represents nothing. It's the perfect test. Banning flag desecration is a direct contradiction as it disallows me to do exactly what the flag is supposed to stand for.

I would ask this guy, what was he fighting for exactly? A piece of red, white and blue stitching, or the freedom to express one's self even if he disagrees with it?

 

[nuttynutskin]

I agree with him. It's disrespectful and a slap in the face to anyone who's served or has family that have served or god forbid lost their lives. Whether you agree with what's going on politically with the U.S. at least have some fucking respect. Just like any other country the U.S. isn't perfect, but like he said, if you hate it here so much move to a different country. I'm mostly in favor when it comes to things related to freedom of speech and expression but sometimes the morons that want to push it make me reconsider. What exactly is stomping on the flag going to accomplish anyways? It's about akin to a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum. If anyone thinks they're making some great political statement in doing so I think they've greatly deluded themselves.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Meh. It's just the internet. Personally I was more offended at the water being wasted by idiots pouring it on themselves.

 

[socko]

Is the US the only country where the flag is considered to be a sacred artifact? Especially in Red States, people have the flag on their houses, cars, even motorcycles. They wear it on their clothes and on pins. But it's just a piece of cloth. Just like "Draw Muhammed Day," I like the idea of standing on the flag.

 

[Bearlove]

What exactly is stomping on the flag going to accomplish anyways?

A response. Same as all these other pathetic challenges that circulate (water bucket, ice, neknominate, paracetamol) etc.

It's not what it stands for or what it means, its just the 'herd' mentality or the need to fit in.

 

[laugh]

we have the same sort of uneducated, small minded, neanderthal type 'bogan' in australia.

not sure if despairingly sad or righteously hilarious.

said people usually get their knickers in a knot when 'their' countries indigenous folk are mentioned.

god bless.

I agree with him. It's disrespectful and a slap in the face to anyone who's served or has family that have served or god forbid lost their lives. Whether you agree with what's going on politically with the U.S. at least have some fucking respect. Just like any other country the U.S. isn't perfect, but like he said, if you hate it here so much move to a different country. I'm mostly in favor when it comes to things related to freedom of speech and expression but sometimes the morons that want to push it make me reconsider. What exactly is stomping on the flag going to accomplish anyways? It's about akin to a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum. If anyone thinks they're making some great political statement in doing so I think they've greatly deluded themselves.

and yet it appears to have rustled your jimmies. respect where respect is due. i wonder how much the Vietnamese respect, or the afghanis, etc etc etc the list goes on..

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

but like he said, if you hate it here so much move to a different country. I'm mostly in favor when it comes to things related to freedom of speech and expression but sometimes the morons that want to push it make me reconsider.

You could always fuck off to Afghanistan like?

 

[Deleted member 210577]

I agree with both sides. If the foundations of the nation were based upon freedom then that includes the freedom to see it as just a piece of fabric and do what you wish with it. On the other it's pretty disrespectful to those who've died fighting to protect said freedoms, and more than that assuming you're not some jihadi nutbar and are a proper citizen then take some fucking pride and affect change if you're so angry at the country.. the flag doesn't have feelings and neither does the government, but your family friends and neighbours might.. in the end you accomplish nothing and potentially offend a lot of people.

 

[alasdairm]

^ we have a constitutionally protected right to freely express ourselves. there's no amendment which says you have a right to not be offended.

IOn the other it's pretty disrespectful to those who've died fighting to protect said freedoms...

like the freedom to burn the flag? i think it is a respectful act - it respects the freedom for which the flag stands.

If the ideals represented by the flag do not allow me the freedom to burn (or even stand on) the piece of fabric as a statement, then the flag represents nothing. It's the perfect test.

it is the perfect test. nicely put.

there are people who seem to support the idea of these freedoms in principle but, when a hard case comes along, that all falls apart. i've said it before and i'll say it again, it's the difficult cases that make these ideas worth anything at all.

it's like free speech. it's the easiest thing in the world to believe in free speech when somebody's saying a bunch of stuff you believe in. the monologue at the end of the american president says it far better than i can:

"You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours."

so it is with criminals. it's easy to talk about due process and innocence-until-proven-guilty when somebody's stolen a pack of smokes. it only becomes truly meaningful when you extend the same rights to the guy who assaults and brutally murders children. or carries out a terrorist act against the very country which extends him due process.

so it is with flag burning. some think it's lily-livered, pinko communism. another way of looking at it is that it's the very definition of freedom and patriotism.

talking about the importance of freedom then limiting somebody's right to controversial self-expression is called paying lip service...

so it is with many issues.

alasdair

 

[alasdairm]

btw, i think the flag standing challenge is stupid. but i think people should be free to do it.

alasdair

 

[LuGoJ]

I believe that any sort of symbolism that's attached to physical items is silly. Flags, the cross, books.. all silly and I don't understand why anyone cares about any of them more than a pair of socks.

BUT

Personally, I will respect another person's beliefs or attachment to said items. Out of that respect, I will not purposely do anything to a flag or religious idol etc within view of anyone that values those items. I will even keep my opinions to myself if someone around me believes in those things, and doesn't want me to talk about it. Does that make me.... gulp... politically correct?

 

[Jabberwocky]

About all the bugaboo
Concerning folks burning the flag
I'd always learned that burning was
The proper, respectful way to dispose of the flag
When it's become obsolete and worn out it's usefulness

Hell, being an American is all about getting things off your chest
And saying your peace
A visual aid can come in mighty handy for getting your point across
So don't be using up all your matches and lighters
Wavin 'em at those big concerts
Save 'em for the streets
Where they can express your true feelings
And those of our founding fathers

God Bless all you flag burning patriots
Exercising your rights as Americans

— Halo Benders

 

[Deleted member 210577]

^ we have a constitutionally protected right to freely express ourselves. there's no amendment which says you have a right to not be offended.like the freedom to burn the flag? i think it is a respectful act - it respects the freedom for which the flag stands.it is the perfect test. nicely put.

I don't personally care for our flag, patriotism doesn't really stir me so much. But a respectful act, burning the flag? Really? One is entitled to do so but it just seems like an attempt to offend.. why else would you do it. To test your freedom, when you know you won't be arrested for it?

 

[Bardeaux]

I agree with him. It's disrespectful and a slap in the face to anyone who's served or has family that have served or god forbid lost their lives.

There were fighting for our freedoms, though weren't they? Or were they fighting for something else?

Whether you agree with what's going on politically with the U.S. at least have some fucking respect.

Outside of the silly challenge (and I do agree it's silly), I believe demonstrating the freedom that soldiers have fought and died for is showing them the ultimate respect, by showing them that this freedom of speech is still in tact.

Just like any other country the U.S. isn't perfect, but like he said, if you hate it here so much move to a different country.

What if those were King George's words to the colonists?

If anyone thinks they're making some great political statement in doing so I think they've greatly deluded themselves.

This is probably true regarding this particular "challenge". However like I said, publicly destroying the flag (which has been done by people who truly love their country in the past) is probably the most poignant test in deciding what the flag really stands for. I think any demonstration of this act should really come with an explanation as to why exactly they're doing it. The flag represents my freedom to burn a piece of cloth, no? (aside from maybe citations for lighting a fire in public )

the flag doesn't have feelings and neither does the government, but your family friends and neighbours might.. in the end you accomplish nothing and potentially offend a lot of people.

Which is precisely the point. The idea (behind desecration in protest, not the challenge) is to gauge exactly how you, your friends, neighbors especially those in the armed service feel about this. I have members of my family who have served and have been wounded in Vietnam. If I had served personally, I may or may not disagree with the idea, but I certainly wouldn't be offended by this demonstration of freedom.

 

[alasdairm]

...why else would you do it.

right. you can only think of two reasons therefore there are only two possible reasons...

looking back historically, i think the most common reason people have burned the flag is as a form of protest.

alasdair

 

[LuGoJ]

why else would you do it

As part of a piece of art. Someone covered a statue of virgin mary in manure as part of an art installation back in the 90's and people lost their minds over it. They wanted it taken down, lawsuits were filed, the mayor freaked out on them. I found it utterly hilarious because it was in an art gallery somewhere, where people didn't have to go look at it.

To me it's the same as people getting upset over other people drawing the prophet muhammed. I believe that nobody has the right to tell anyone they can't draw a picture of him, just the same as I can't tell anyone not to burn a flag. You are either for flag burning and drawing the prophet muhammed being protected by free speech, or you are for neither being protected. Can't have it both ways.

As much as I hate people owning guns, I know it's a right they have. As pointless as I find automatic weapons, and people just walking around with them in plain view, I respect that it's a right in some states. It doesn't matter that I find it pointless or hate it, it's a right they have and are allowed to exercise for no reason at all.

Rights suck when you disagree with their application but are great when you agree with them, eh?

 

[alasdairm]

As much as I hate people owning guns, I know it's a right they have. As pointless as I find automatic weapons, and people just walking around with them in plain view, I respect that it's a right in some states. It doesn't matter that I find it pointless or hate it, it's a right they have and are allowed to exercise for no reason at all.

it's interesting (and i recognise that this is something of a generalisation) that the people who have a problem with the first amendment allowing the flag to be burned, are often the same people who hold up the sanctity of the second amendment.

cake and eat it? pretty much.

alasdair

 

[alasdairm]

from the texas court of criminal appeals in texas v. johnson: "Recognizing that the right to differ is the centerpiece of our First Amendment freedoms, a government cannot mandate by fiat a feeling of unity in its citizens. Therefore that very same government cannot carve out a symbol of unity and prescribe a set of approved messages to be associated with that symbol."

from kennedy's concurrence to brennan's scotus opinion (same case): "Though symbols often are what we ourselves make of them, the flag is constant in expressing beliefs Americans share, beliefs in law and peace and that freedom which sustains the human spirit. The case here today forces recognition of the costs to which those beliefs commit us. It is poignant but fundamental that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt." (my emphasis).

alasdair

 

[LuGoJ]

it's interesting (and i recognise that this is something of a generalisation) that the people who have a problem with the first amendment allowing the flag to be burned, are often the same people who hold up the sanctity of the second amendment.

cake and eat it? pretty much.

alasdair

We all seem to be hypocrites to some extent, depending on circumstance. At least that's how I reconcile and rationalize it at the end of the day, in order to keep my sanity

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Which is precisely the point. The idea (behind desecration in protest, not the challenge) is to gauge exactly how you, your friends, neighbors especially those in the armed service feel about this. I have members of my family who have served and have been wounded in Vietnam. If I had served personally, I may or may not disagree with the idea, but I certainly wouldn't be offended by this demonstration of freedom.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the right to be able to do it without being punished. I just don't see why a citizen of the country would want do it.. I mean surely you're protesting because you're unhappy with some element of the government or how things are being conducted right? The flag represents the nation and an ideal/model we're all trying to help build together, right? So why burn the flag that represents what we're all working towards, when the problem is some douchenozzle in office who's screwing things up?

I understand why people in other nations burn America's or GB's flag, I just don't get why people in the actual nations would do it.. I mean even though I disagree with a lot of what my country is doing and has been for a long time I still wouldn't burn the flag. Not because I'm a patriot or care that much, not at all.. but I still recognize this country affords me something that I take for granted every day.. certain personal and economic freedoms.. and burning the flag just feels like I would be pissing on all the people who make this country what it is (and those in the past), you know?

The flag/nation to me is like a wider family. You wouldn't burn your own family crest would you? If someone in the family was being a dick and ruining the name of the family you'd challenge them and do something about it wouldn't you? I guess what I'm getting at is that flag burning by a citizen seems like a failure of pride in ones wider context.