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Fentanyl/ Opiate WD - need help please!

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Dan13980

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Aug 8, 2016
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10
Hi everyone,

Long time reader, first time poster. Sorry if this is in the wrong section, feel free to point me in the right place if so..

I really hope you guys can help me out here!

So.. About 2 years ago I was occasionally doing 0.5-1g of street grade gear (once or twice a month), never bought too much and never did it more than a few days in a row. Everything was great until somebody offered me a gram of fantanyl HCL for next to nothing. I ended up dosing volumetrically and then putting mannitol in the liquid and evaporating to make a powder that was 20mg fentanyl hcl per gram of Mannitol. I did this for about 6 months straight and only realized how hopelessly addicted I was when I started being unable to sleep more than about an hour before having to crawl out of bed in agony.

After coming to terms with the situation I'd got myself into I decided to cold turkey and was HORRENDOUSLY ILL! I lasted about 6 days and when I still wasn't improving (I know I know, fent is supposed to have a silly short half-life so my withdrawal should have been completely over in a handful of days.. not so!) I caved to a friends offer of 2x 8mg Subutex tablets.

This was a life-saver! I sniffed bits of the first tablet and at a dose of less than 2mg I had beautiful relief :) Over the next 2 weeks I used the sub whenever the withdrawal got bad (for me its classed as bad when I'm shivering cold and my hair stands on end, usually before the stomach upset starts) and successfully rode out the rest of the withdrawal in relative ease (slight RLS, poor sleep). After the 2 weeks I was happy(ish) and stable without any opiates, I did deal with a few more sleepless nights (sleep increased in length by about 20 minutes a night), I remained slightly depressed and upset that I let the situation get as bad as it did but after a couple of months I was healed and back to my happy self.

I stayed away from opiates for some time until recently I was again was offered cheap fent. I got right back to my old level of use in record time; about 8-10mg a day taken incrementally throughout the whole day (and night I guess), to cut a long story short I've been high as a kite on the fent 24/7 for about a month, perhaps as long as 6 weeks. I realized after about a month I was addicted again and needed to detox so went about procuring 3x 8mg subutex. I assumed this would be as easy as last time..

I was wrong!

I waited about 12 hours from my last line, spent the whole night awake (aside from the first hour) in agony but wanted to hold off the sub to prevent precipitated WD's. I started taking the sub, 0.5mg at a time, this morning. After half an hour with no relief I took another 0.5mg.. and another.. and another, then 1mg, another, then 2, again, again.. (it goes on!). I've now got through over 16mg of sub but feel next to no relief.. what is going on!? I have achy legs and arms, sweats, slightly dilated pupils etc. I thought 1mg would do me!!

Right now as I type this I'm bout 20 hours into the withdrawal, only..

I'm currently suffering pretty badly but not wanting to take more sub, any insight anyone can provide on why the sub issn't working or how much more I might need would be greatly appreciated (I know this is a hard to say and everyone is different!).. Also perhaps my main ask is any advice on how I should proceed from here??

Hmm.. trying to think if there's anything else relevant. I have 15 or so 100mg tapentadol tablets laying around somewhere and have access to more sub; I can get another 3x 8mg with a couple of days notice. I have an endless supply of diazepam, etizolam and clonazolam. I also have loads of mirtazapine (which was prescribed when I presented at the doctors with insomnia during my last withdrawal), I consider it a bit of a wonder drug and despite not taking it daily thought about it and would recommend it to anyone who has issues with depression or anxiety as an alternative to SSRI's.

I also have 100mcg of fent left, I don't intend on using it but wanted to keep it to hand in case I need to present to customers at work, I have nothing in the diary currently and if I manage to get stable on the sub that's where I want to be and can flush the fent.

Please help! I'm supposed to be getting married in March and really need to sort this mess out as the other half was incredible helping me through the first time but I worry she'd would walk if she found out it happened again. We just moved to a new, incredible, house. Work is going well too and I don't need this fucking everything up!

Thank you for reading all of that
 
It sounds like you're under A LOT of pressure. With buprenorphine, when one switches back and forth between full agonists and partial agonists the bupe can lose it's effectiveness in combating the symptoms of acute withdrawal unless you have abstained from this kind of pattern for some time.

I don't know what is going on in your case specifically, but all I can suggest is to stick to the buprenorphine and the buprenorphine alone if you want it to work. Forget the fent and tapentadol for now, just stick to the buprenorphine. You'll stabilize in a day or two and feel much better. Dose yourself with the diazepam until you are feeling stable on just buprenoprhine.
 
Thanks for your support toothpaste dog, it's needed right now.

I've not been switching back and forth, just a 4-6 week stint on fent hcl 24/7 and now on the bupe. No other opiates taken in the last couple of months (no H, tapentadol or any of my other favorites). Based on my previous experience (it was a miracle cure at only 1mg) I'm still puzzled and a little worried..

I'm now up to 24mg on the bupe and I think I'm going to have to call it a day as I've none left. I'm not in full blown WD but I've got achy legs, can't sit still, still have the chills and generally very anxious/ unhappy. I don't have blown pupils but they are normal size (I would expect even 1mg to have my pupils as pinpricks, let alone 24mg!!).

Hopefully I can get more in the next couple of days. Fingers crossed whatever relief I am getting will be maintained by the long half life..

If anybody else has any ideas on why this is or suggestions for how I manage this (hopefully not too bad of a) withdrawal I'm all ears!

I'm going to sit in a hot bath for an hour or so now

Thanks again
 
I think the biggest difference between this time and the last time is that last time you waiting almost a week clean below starting the subs. Unfortunately as a partial agonist, what it's done is punt all the fent off your opiate receptors. Unfortunately, whilst it's great at sticking to the receptors, it's nowhere near as good at lighting them up. Taking more fent probably won't help, as the bupe has already glued to them for at least the next 72 hours. IIRC not even nalextrone can efficiently remove bupe from the receptors, which is why it's very dangerous in overdose.

So - you either need to find more bupe and tough it out, or not find more bupe and tough it out harder. Sorry - probably not the news you want, but that's where you're at. You may as well flush the fent, by the time it would work again you're not going to want to take it and start the train back up again.
 
Even though you did a very good job of trying to avoid precip withdrawl, it sounds like that's what might be happening.

Even though insulfated Fentanyl has (I think?) a short half life, you may have taken enough to cause a little confrontation on your opiate receptors!

Stay strong and don't watch the clock too much!
 
I know what it's like simultaneously trying to quit something and meeting life's responsibilities. You know it's gonna set your personal progress back if you take something, but you also don't feel steady enough to handle work without it. it's a rough fuckin cycle :/ if you're strong and flush the shit anyways it will definitely pay off, but i've been there and chosen not to several times so you got my sympathy either way

If you live in one of the states where Kratom is legal (which is most of them), I highly recommend it. It binds to the opioid receptors in your brain, but isn't an opiate or opioid itself, and is often used to treat opiate withdrawal. It alleviates almost all of the symptoms of opiate withdrawal and provides mild versions of the pleasurable effects such as euphoria and pain relief, and although these benefits might be minimized from heavy fent use, I am confident that you could find a lot of relief if you tried the right amount. You can order it online or buy it from head shops (maeng da is the kind you want). My girlfriend is going through WD from oxy and although she is far from 100%, starting her on the Kratom has helped her immensely with restless arms, back aches, irritability, cravings, and pretty much all of her bad symptoms.

fentanyl is gnar man. I have only dabbled so I did not have withdrawals but the comedowns were very harsh to me with bodily aches being more severe than any other opiate I've tried. I can only imagine how tough it must be after a month of straight use. :( Sorry to hear about your relapse and here's hoping you can stay on the path to sobriety. If you do end up trying Kratom, check up on the dosage. I'm assuming you will need a fairly high dose for relief and I don't want to recommend a dose so low that you won't benefit, but I also don't want to recommend anything too strong since I'm not terribly experienced with it myself.

There's a thread about this somewhere, and my gf and I are very new to Kratom (by no means experts). But seeing as we just now learned about it I wanted to suggest it just in case, since your situation seems kind of dire and it's been an amazing resource for us. Also, I don't think you should mix it with anything. Best of luck man!
 
It you're taking buprenorphien for opioid withdrawal it is better to stick with that than kratom. Generally it is more effective. Kratom will work really, really well for less chronic habits, but it isn't as effective when it comes to really serious dependency than buprenorphine. Great resource to have though, both for kicking and maintenance.
 
Muzda Jonxx said:
I think the biggest difference between this time and the last time is that last time you waiting almost a week clean below starting the subs. Unfortunately as a partial agonist, what it's done is punt all the fent off your opiate receptors. Unfortunately, whilst it's great at sticking to the receptors, it's nowhere near as good at lighting them up. Taking more fent probably won't help, as the bupe has already glued to them for at least the next 72 hours. IIRC not even nalextrone can efficiently remove bupe from the receptors, which is why it's very dangerous in overdose.

So - you either need to find more bupe and tough it out, or not find more bupe and tough it out harder. Sorry - probably not the news you want, but that's where you're at. You may as well flush the fent, by the time it would work again you're not going to want to take it and start the train back up again.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately that's not the case, bupe can't knock fent off the receptors, and fent can easily break through a bupe blockade.

And some advice for OP, I doubt bupe will be any good, and I've personally never heard of anyone successfully using bupe for fent WD. Try using a long acting fent, like acetyl/butyrfentanyl sublingually, they keep away WDs for up to 8 hours.
 
Oh ok, I stand corrected. I didn't realise fent had a better affinity for the receptors than bupe, that's quite a scary thought considering the microscopic doses involved. No wonder it's killing so many people.
 
Thanks for all your advice and support guys, it's unbelievably helpful

I managed to stabalize'ish on the bup yesterday by about bed time. I slept almost the whole night before waking with serious RLS. My other half thinks I must be coming down with something (no shit!)

I've had to travel to town for a big presentation today and with a belly full of breakfast, naproxen, paracetamol and etizolam I feel I can handle it. Aching like hell. Suffice to say I'll be heading straight home right after.

I have half of an 8mg sub I found (must have been from the last time this happened) which I'm saving for when I start feeling terrible, hopefully not until tonight, tomorrow morning if I can wait that long.

I can get more subs (24mg or more) either tomorrow early or possibly the day after.

Am I expecting a horrendous crash when the bup's long half life starts to expire?

Is there a taper strategy I can use to ease myself off with relative ease? I will likely be able to procure 24-48mg more

The Kratom suggestion is a good one but not sure I'll have enough time to wait for it. Perhaps I'll order and see
 
Anxious.Individual said:
Unfortunately that's not the case, bupe can't knock fent off the receptors, and fent can easily break through a bupe blockade.

And some advice for OP, I doubt bupe will be any good, and I've personally never heard of anyone successfully using bupe for fent WD. Try using a long acting fent, like acetyl/butyrfentanyl sublingually, they keep away WDs for up to 8 hours.
Click to expand...

I've seen some research indicating that buprenorphine has a slightly stronger affinity than fentanyl. Where do you get this info? Just curious, I don't have much experience with fent.

Stabilizing on buprenorphine is also not so much a matter "of knocking" fent off opioid receptors, but rather replacing it as it falls off, so affinity isn't so important short of a discussion of precipitated withdrawal.
 
I was talking more about the possibility of OP taking more fent to get out of wd after loading up on 24mg bupe. Sounds like in this particular case it might actually work.
 
toothpastedog said:
I've seen some research indicating that buprenorphine has a slightly stronger affinity than fentanyl. Where do you get this info? Just curious, I don't have much experience with fent.

Stabilizing on buprenorphine is also not so much a matter "of knocking" fent off opioid receptors, but rather replacing it as it falls off, so affinity isn't so important short of a discussion of precipitated withdrawal.
Click to expand...
Buprenorphine mu-opioid receptor affinity (MOR): Ki = 1.5 / 0.9? NM;
Fentanyl mu-opioid receptor affinity (MOR): Ki = 0.7 NM;
(The smaller the number, the higher is affinity)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buprenorphine#Pharmacology

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/archive/index.php/t-661568.html (scroll down to the post by endotropic)
 
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Hey Guys, still very confused about what's going on with me. I seemed to stabilise on the 24mg bupe and topped up yesterday with the 8mg (or maybe it was 4mg) I found and was comfortable enough for the work presentation and yet another today. Heading home now, feel like shit but not as bad as I expected (presumably due to bupe's massive half life).

Am I likely to continue going downhill? Will it be as bad as when I stopped for half a day cold turkey?

I'm due to collect 24 - 48mg more Bupe tomorrow.. Stressed out that I can't get it today! Worried I won't be able to get out of bed if I start spiralling into heavy WD's!!

Thanks again for everyone's valuable insight and of course I'm eternally grateful for any other advice anyone can offer on how I'm likely to go from here/ strategy for the rest of the WD.

If I get the Bupe as planned how should I take it? Just as needed or shall I work a taper strategy? Perhaps stabilise myself as soon as I get the Bup and then skip a day before stabilising again at a reduced dose?
 
Take it by washing your mouth out with Listarine an then slapping it under your tongue if you have the strips, otherwise you can sniff it to increase the BA.

It is just a matter of time till you stabilize though (hours, not days)

If you haven't been on bupe more than a week or two you don't have to worry about a taper
 
This is so much harder than last time!

I guess I need to quit for good this time.. I think my issue was that it was so easy after I got the Bupe last time I'd assumed it would always be so easy :(

I don't have much problem putting cravings to one side and pushing through (why I'm not worried I'll hit the fent I've squirrelled away) but I'm a complete pussy when it comes to physical pain. Man-flu-withdrawal!
 
Yup, switching back and forth does not work out so well. Keep your head up, you'll be okay!
 
Thanks toothpaste dog, your input has been especially useful. I just want to make sure I understand your comment about Bupe and tapering..

So are you suggesting that despite doing 28-32mg of Bupe in 36 hours I don't need to taper down before jumping off?

If I'm done with the fent WD (I know due to HL I should be but from experience I know I'm not there yet) I should just be able to stop the Bupe and not face ANY accute WD?

That would be a result!!
 
Dan13980 said:
Thanks toothpaste dog, your input has been especially useful. I just want to make sure I understand your comment about Bupe and tapering..

So are you suggesting that despite doing 28-32mg of Bupe in 36 hours I don't need to taper down before jumping off?

If I'm done with the fent WD (I know due to HL I should be but from experience I know I'm not there yet) I should just be able to stop the Bupe and not face ANY accute WD?

That would be a result!!
Click to expand...

From my understanding, yes you essentially are correct. You do not need to taper despite how much you've taken and you won't have any nasty or lingering side effects or withdrawal (from the bupe). There may be residual withdrawal symptoms from the fent, but that is not from the bupe.
 
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