RCs Fenfluramine vs. 4-FA: Subjective Effects & Heart Damage

[Circle of Fiends]

Not sure if this belongs here. Sorry if it doesn't.

Has anyone here tried fenfluramine or any of its variations? I'm a frequent user of 4-FA and am a little worried about fenfluramine like heart problems after reading some of the stuff on here. 4-FA has been studied briefly by scientists, but the studies are testing it alongside things like 4-chloroamphetamine (neurotoxin) and fenfluramine (cardiotoxin).

Here's the only trip report of fenfluramine I could find (from Erowid):

Though it lacks the dopaminergic stimulation and euphoria of MDMA, it is a very potent and intoxicating (as well as cheap) drug that has several features that make it a good rave drug. It has even less psychedelic effect than MDMA (less likely to cause freakouts in unexperienced users), is much longer acting and considerably less dangerous. Though it does lack the empathogenic 'magic' of MDMA, it is quite anxiolytic, easing social interaction. Dosage is about 20-80 mg, though some recreational users have taken up to 400mg. Overall, the effect is simiar to that described for 4-MTA, calm yet stimulating.

That sounds freakishly similar to 4-FA's subjective effects!

We already know that MDMA has the potential to cause heart valve damage in heavy users. I know a lot of people take 4-FA much more frequently or even daily...do we know how the risks of such use compare to daily fenfluramine use?

(Please no common-sense "don't take 4-FA daily" warnings. I know it's not a good idea and therefore don't take it daily. I know people who do though.)

Edit: Here's another fenfluramine trip report that compares it to MDMA. Fuck.

 

[i are spectre]

4-FA is not similar enough in structure to either components in fen-phen to be worried at all.

fluorine's size compared to chlorine's size is like a fly compared to a baseball stadium. the other halogenated amphetamines (Cl, Br, I) have been shown to be neurotoxic, while not one piece of evidence regarding fluorinated amphetamines exists as far as i know.

just because one drug feels like another doesn't mean it has the same physiological effects. that is pretty silly to make assumptions like that and is never done in the medical field. only quantitative evidence.


if you have any other articles that say otherwise, id be glad to read them.

 

[Lady Codone]

I've been wondering about this too. I know 4-FA is less neurotoxic than Fen or the other halo amphetamines, but it's the 5ht2b agonism potential that worries me. Fenfluramine is only ONE of many drugs that have this effect; others include Aminorex, pergolide and chlorphentermine.

I think this is the study OP was talking about.

Fen and 4-FA are similar in more ways than subjective effects: both are appetite suppressant amphetamines that affect serotonin. Whether 4-FA affects the heart in the same way w/ regular use is the big question. MDMA certainly would if it was taken daily.

 

[i are spectre]

i dont understand what youre trying to point out in that study you posted, Lady Codone.

i would be more worried about 2-FMA than 4-FA having problem with heart valves, and even that is a stretch. Fenfluramine has a whole fluoromethyl group on the 2 position, much larger than a simple fluorine atom - of which has been estimated to be the size of a typical hydrogen atom (proton).

aminorex, pergolide and chlorphentermine are anything but similar to 4-FA. i would stop worrying about these things until you find some conclusive evidence rather than speculating based only upon subjective effects.

 

[Dresden]

I wonder how N-methyl-3-trifluoromethylamphetamine (methfenfluramine) would be.

 

[Lady Codone]

I was just referencing the study that OP referred to in which fenfluramine and 4-FA were studied together.

My point was that the two do have more in common than subjective effects. I know nothing about chemical structures, but I don't see what that has to do with whether a compound activates the 5ht2b receptor or not. (I think I'm viewing it from a pharmacological standpoint while you're coming from a chemistry angle).

With the exception of SSRI's, many serotonin-affecting drugs have a negative effect on heart valves (MDMA, fenfluramine, MDA, etc). Carcinoid syndrome causes the same type of damage by producing excess serotonin. 4-FA does release serotonin, albeit less than MDMA or some other drugs. Other people on this forum have speculated that 4-FA is a 5ht2b agonist to some degree so it's not a novel idea.

Why would you expect 2-FMA to have a fenfluramine-like effect on the heart? I didn't think it affected serotonin much, if at all.

 

[i are spectre]

sorry i meant 3-FA/3-FMA because it is more similar to norfenfluramine structurally.

but there are 5ht2b agonists that dont resemble amphetamine at all, some brominated indoles and some other wacky things.

i see what your saying now. ill have to look into 4-FA 5ht2b agonism when i get time. ive got a warehouse of chem journals i have access to.

let's hope we dont have issues, god knows ive taken my fair share of 4-FA, and id like to take a lot more in the future...

 

[Lady Codone]

No problem! Thanks for even discussing this with me. I'm an avid user of the fluoroamphetamines so this stuff really hits home. I've heard that the 3-FA's are potentially cardiotoxic but never knew why. Yikes. Good thing they're kinda rare around here.

 

[i are spectre]

they are probably cardiotoxic because of the 3 position substitute, if you look at fenfluramine, it has a CF3 on the 3 position.

this is entirely speculation on my behalf. definitely going to look into this, probably after this semester (couple weeks)