Fasting Megathread

[dokomo]

^Thank you for saying that and for being honest about it.

I think you're absolutely right--the purported benefits of fasting are largely spiritual/psychological. My response to that would be, why not encourage meditation and a healthy diet? Far more beneficial psychologically and spiritually and CERTAINLY far less destructive to the body. Meditation is actually a long-term skill with far reaching benefits that I think would help a lot of people if they would actually try it.

The problem is that any short-cut to losing weight, 'getting healthy,' etc is unsustainable and will almost always result in no long-term benefits (and depending on how damaging the shortcut, can be very costly.) People try to justify doing things like using methamphetamine to lose weight using the same logic.

Thanks, but if the other thread is turning into a debate I will stay far away. No desire to argue with people who've already made up their minds.

Seriously? You're seriously saying "I don't want to talk to anyone with a different viewpoint than me" and expecting ANYONE to take anything you say seriously?

My mind is far from made up. Show me science, show me facts and show me at least a cursory knowledge of how the body actually works beyond some kind of nebulous anecdotal experiences and I'll be more than glad to listen.

 

[amapola]

Damn bluelight lost my whole post...sorry if this seems lackadaisical, bitter and angry. It was good though. Everyone would have been unable to deny my arguments :D

My response to that would be, why not encourage meditation and a healthy diet? Far more beneficial psychologically and spiritually and CERTAINLY far less destructive to the body. Meditation is actually a long-term skill with far reaching benefits that I think would help a lot of people if they would actually try it.

I think in many ways your support for spiritual mediation supports my points of fasting, if you accept that benefits of fasting would be spiritual. I'm sure you would advocate taking up long distance running for an inactive person looking to change their life, yet it can cause horrible collision impact on their lower joints compared to swimming or biking. Something is better than nothing.

As for a healthy diet, what better way to recognize the value and purpose of food in your life than to go without it for a little while.

The problem is that any short-cut to losing weight, 'getting healthy,' etc is unsustainable and will almost always result in no long-term benefits (and depending on how damaging the shortcut, can be very costly.) People try to justify doing things like using methamphetamine to lose weight using the same logic.

You are equating fasting with weight loss which I have never done, though granted it is likely at the foremost of many people's minds. Perhaps if you don't look at it as a shortcut so much as a stepping stone or bridge. Many unhealthy people are addicted to food. Imagine telling a junkie to kick a binging addiction on their drug of choice, but still use just a little bit of the drug everyday. Not going to happen. A fast is a way to go cold turkey from that until you see you can live without the drug.

Fasting is a way of bringing you mind and body closer together and focusing on who and what you are.

p.s.
Just in case that made no sense (too busy kicking myself to look back over it now but I see something about stepping stones that goes nowhere haha :S) I'll give you something to go off of rather than my poorly linked arguments. Let me ask you a question Dokomo (or anyone else who wants)...

After reading about why I fast, what I get out of it, and most of my views on it (we haven't gotten into 'true hunger' and all that but it doesn't apply), would you still recommend I not do it? Or better yet do you think it is not beneficial to me?

edit:
I just read it over and I am not pleased. Whatever I'll put all my thoughts together as a defense sometime. I just need to fast so I can organize my thoughts

 

[dokomo]

Damn bluelight lost my whole post...sorry if this seems lackadaisical, bitter and angry. It was good though. Everyone would have been unable to deny my arguments :D

Uh huh. Sure. 8)

I think in many ways your support for spiritual mediation supports my points of fasting, if you accept that benefits of fasting would be spiritual. I'm sure you would advocate taking up long distance running for an inactive person looking to change their life, yet it can cause horrible collision impact on their lower joints compared to swimming or biking. Something is better than nothing.

As a matter of fact, I always recommend low-impact exercise. I understand your point, but I disagree. A persons options aren't nothing or damaging but slightly 'beneficial' behavior. We can recommend 'swimming' or 'biking' as you mentioned above, rather than what essentially amounts to self harm.

As for a healthy diet, what better way to recognize the value and purpose of food in your life than to go without it for a little while.

You're saying the best way for a person with food issues to learn a proper relationship with food is to go from eating wrong/too much to not eating at all? Hardly practical or useful. One is as ridiculous as the other--the real, honest and PRACTICAL (albeit boring and not in any way fun) way is to eat properly, eat healthily.

You are equating fasting with weight loss which I have never done, though granted it is likely at the foremost of many people's minds. Perhaps if you don't look at it as a shortcut so much as a stepping stone or bridge. Many unhealthy people are addicted to food.

You brought up over-eating (obviously implying being overweight) as a problem to be solved by fasting, so in this way I think you have related fasting and weight loss.

Imagine telling a junkie to kick a binging addiction on their drug of choice, but still use just a little bit of the drug everyday. Not going to happen. A fast is a way to go cold turkey from that until you see you can live without the drug.

I tell junkies to do this every day--whether its suboxone, methadone, or a benzodiazepine taper, they're FAR more effective and beneficial than trying to cold turkey off of an addictive drug. The relapse rates are through the roof when people try to just 'quit.'

Fasting is a way of bringing you mind and body closer together and focusing on who and what you are.

Great. Why not do this in one of a dozen ways that aren't nutritionally harmful to your body?

After reading about why I fast, what I get out of it, and most of my views on it (we haven't gotten into 'true hunger' and all that but it doesn't apply), would you still recommend I not do it? Or better yet do you think it is not beneficial to me?

Absolutely, I would recommend that you not do it. The bottom line is you can do whatever you want for yourself, but I'll no sooner stand for people recommending fasting to others that I'll be satisfied with a "how do I be anorexic" or "how can I cut myself where no one notices" thread.

People that engage in both of these behaviors derive all sorts of purported 'benefits' of stress relief and psychological well-being (so they think) from these behaviors, and use many of the same rationalizations you do. But, the bottom line is, that these are unhealthy behaviors that are not in any way necessary to achieve the ends they claim to.

 

[addictivepersona]

...Not to derail your guys' debate, buuut figured I'd post how the rest of my fast went.

Day 2 started off shaky since I got up wayyy too fast. After 20 minutes or so I was fine and carried on with my day, no problems despite walking a lot.

Day 3 started off halfway decent and turned terrible when I got my period... Almost passed out, so I had like half an apple blended with water and drank/munched on that while waiting for some steel cut oats to cook. Felt a million times better after I laid down after eating. So glad I wasn't alone.

Wasn't supposed to get my period 'til tomorrow, that's why I was planning on ending the fast tomorrow. But, I have now discovered (unless it happened twice by chance) that fasting before my period totally minimizes the cramps--They were bad for an hour or two last time after a one-day fast, and were bad for about a half hour today after a two-day fast. Normally for a day or two, sometimes three, I'm in bed with a heating pad, in such terrible pain.

 

[ganja god]

^Thank you for saying that and for being honest about it.

My response to that would be, why not encourage meditation and a healthy diet? Far more beneficial psychologically and spiritually and CERTAINLY far less destructive to the body. Meditation is actually a long-term skill with far reaching benefits that I think would help a lot of people if they would actually try it.

I only fasted for three days before, and that was a juice fast, but my meditations were markedly deeper, and I was less distracted. Fasting should not be over done, of course, but its not really that big a risk or health detriment to occasionally fast for a reasonable length of time. And the increased awareness and spiritual/psychological growth is well worth it. In fact my deepest meditation was during that fast. Fasting actually improved my meditation practice. Also fasting is an ancient practice. I honestly trust what ancient hindu yogis have to say about health than modern science, which over diagnoses and over prescribes pharmaceuticals ( some doctors actually get paid to push certain drugs, at least in my own backwards country). I opt for the thousands of years of wisdom over than short lived, and wanting in so many ways, modern science in regards to health. Oh and btw that wisdom came from the meditation you recommend.

 

[dokomo]

I only fasted for three days before, and that was a juice fast, but my meditations were markedly deeper, and I was less distracted. Fasting should not be over done, of course, but its not really that big a risk or health detriment to occasionally fast for a reasonable length of time. And the increased awareness and spiritual/psychological growth is well worth it. In fact my deepest meditation was during that fast. Fasting actually improved my meditation practice. Also fasting is an ancient practice. I honestly trust what ancient hindu yogis have to say about health than modern science, which over diagnoses and over prescribes pharmaceuticals ( some doctors actually get paid to push certain drugs, at least in my own backwards country). I opt for the thousands of years of wisdom over than short lived, and wanting in so many ways, modern science in regards to health. Oh and btw that wisdom came from the meditation you recommend.

Blood letting and a host of other practices are also ancient, but this doesn't make them any more beneficial.

Feel free to go with ancient hindu yogis for your healthcare, its certainly a more fashionable way to go about things (although I hear the herbal/spiritual apendicitis and cancer remedies are somewhat lacking, despite thousands of years of practice.)

Just don't sell them to others as logical or reasonable solutions.

I'm intimately aware (more than I'd like to be) of the problems with the US healthcare system. However, you can't throw out science (actual science) just because of a few corrupt bastards out to make a buck. Idealism and naïveté ≠ wisdom, any way you slice it.

I'm not challenging your subjective experience, just your reasoning. Its an 'ends don't justify the means' type of situation--I can feel absolutely euphorically happy when I boot up a shot of heroin, but I don't think anyone would deny that there are MUCH better ways to find real (and long-lasting) happiness. Likewise, there isn't anything blocking you from effectively meditating with a healthy diet.

 

[modern buddha]

I believe I should also post how the rest of the fast went for me. It was a rather busy weekend!

Day 2 - I felt amazing today. I had no weakness or pain or pangs at all. It was almost as if I had been eating the whole time. I had some cravings, but nothing too serious that couldn't be satisfied with drinking hot water. It's been my savior!

Day 3 -- I woke up this morning and stood up a bit too fast. My heart started pounding really quickly and I had to sit back down or else I knew I was going to black out from the low blood pressure. I felt weak even going down stairs and figured it was a fine time to make a smoothie and break the fast for sure.

Other than that, it was a good experience.

 

[ganja god]

Likewise, there isn't anything blocking you from effectively meditating with a healthy diet.

No, of course not, but my point is that it was well worth the experience of markedly deeper, more intense and insightful than my usual meditations.

 

[amapola]

^Furthermore worth is a comparison of risk versus reward. With all the rewards we have listed so far (whether or not they could be achieved through other methods) what is the real risk of fasting?

 

[amapola]

@addictivepersona and Simply_Life.

Nice work you two! Hope you enjoyed.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^Furthermore worth is a comparison of risk versus reward. With all the rewards we have listed so far (whether or not they could be achieved through other methods) what is the real risk of fasting?

I don't know enough about the physiology of this to list specific possible consequences, but I think the major problem I have with what you're saying above is that you won't immediately see any harm you're causing.

In OD we see this all the time where people are using drugs in a more risky manner than necessary such as not properly filtering, exceeding safe levels of acetaminophen doses, etc. and they claim that people don't need to worry because they never got sick or anything.

These people who have been popping 15 vicodin a day aren't having comprehensive exams done with their ALT and AST levels being checked to verify that their behavior hasn't been hepatotoxic.

My major point is that its impossible to know what damage exactly you're doing absent extensive medical evaluation so your perception of the risk vs. reward is inherently skewed.

 

[amapola]

I would think the specific possible consequences are twofold: leaching of essential nutrients, vitamins, and minerals from tissue in lieu of dietary source; and the stress on organs from ketosis and detoxification.

 

[abracadabra girl]

also the loss of muscle tissue itself, and possibly increasing metabolism so that you pack on weight more quickly in the future.

 

[amapola]

I think that loss of muscle is minimized once ketosis kicks in. Gluconeogenesis is only required if you need a lot of energy quikly.

 

[modern buddha]

From all of these posts, it's easy to see that the choice of fasting in and of itself has positive and negative consequences. The positive risks I can see are those relating to overall long term health. Negatives are on the list of short term risks.

If we think about it, though, in times of famine, wouldn't the body have to have a natural mechanism of using its own energy as a means of survival anyway? In the past, food wasn't always available. So, in addition to all of the awesome things our bodies can do, we can go weeks without food. How amazing is that?

 

[Pegasus]

What do you guys think about the benefits of intermittent fasting? There seem to be quite a bit of studies that affirm the effectiveness of this?

Also I have to comment on impact training... It is shown to increase bone density considerably! The opposite of what happens to astronauts in space happens to boxers, etc, that put repeated stress on the bones...

 

[delta_9]

What do you guys think about the benefits of intermittent fasting? There seem to be quite a bit of studies that affirm the effectiveness of this?

Benefits seem to be similar to CR(calorie restricted) diets.

However, there is hardly "quite a bit" of studies to support this. At least in terms of human studies there is almost nothing conclusive.

How many calories do you plan to intake during your regular eating days?
And(if you normally take any supplements), do you plan to supplement on your fasting days?*

In all honestly though, I would more favor a once yearly 7-day(ish) fast than once week 1-day fasts. Mainly to enter an autophagic state for an extended period of time.

*Actually a general question for everyone who fasts. It's not generally a good idea to supplement while fasting. The only thing I can really recommend is electrolytes/minerals.

Regarding fasting and meditation, fasting for any significant amount of time generally includes somewhat of a drop in mental speed/function. It seems strange to me that people are actually saying they are able to meditate better while fasting ???

 

[modern buddha]

Well, meditation incorporates a lessened mental speed. By slowing down the mind, you can concentrate on the present, not thinking about what you need to do, what has been done and what will happen. Less to think about, slower mental speed... They seem to help each other.

 

[Jblazingphoenix100]

"they attack it, over and over no matter how much you try and show them the light" - really? Show me some science that supports that fasting is superior to, oh I don't know, EATING A HEALTHY DIET over the same period of time?

You obviously know nothing about it, otherwise you'd know it is not an unhealthy practice if done right.

I never felt sick during my Ayurvedic fast - as someone said - but I felt utterfly cleansed afterwards, and even though I was more sensitive afterwards - that's a good thing - your body is more able to tell you when it doesn't like something you've put in it.

When you just switch to a healthy diet - the fats may be broken down, but not as quickly - it makes more sense to lose a few pounds, reset your circadian rhythms, slow down your metabolism, and eradicate all the toxins in your system all at once, nah??

How about you try one, instead of shitting all over practices that have held against the sands of time??

Our science has only been around for a few hundred years, let's be honest - this science has been around for thousands of years - and it's efficacy shines through, whether there are scientific journals (biased as fuck...stuff doesn't get published ALL THE TIME, simply because it goes against the grain of the drug companies, or "new scientific breakthroughs" - theories, really)

Pegasus - I've also read about intermittent fasting - like missing one meal per week, things like that.

 

[delta_9]

Well, meditation incorporates a lessened mental speed. By slowing down the mind, you can concentrate on the present, not thinking about what you need to do, what has been done and what will happen. Less to think about, slower mental speed... They seem to help each other.

If by "slower mental speed" you mean lower frequency brain wave activity(alpha or theta for example), then sure.
I wouldn't exactly phrase it this way however.