I think it's about basic human dignity - you either have it or you don't. If you want to suck corporate cock then be done with it and admit "Yes, I sucked it and I liked it". Don't try and keep your Iggy "too fast to live too dead to care" image while the man from the corporation has both his cock and balls up your anus.
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European & African
Drug Discussion
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Farage: "I have thrown my hat into the ring"
- Thread starter Sammy G
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Meh, I like his music; the politics of it aren't important to me.
Plus, I wasn't aware he'd done commercials because I don't watch TV or whatever.
But he's a survivor, and I respect that more than a dead hero. Iggy Pop is - and always was - a character, a construct. People miss that too often.
Plus, I wasn't aware he'd done commercials because I don't watch TV or whatever.
But he's a survivor, and I respect that more than a dead hero. Iggy Pop is - and always was - a character, a construct. People miss that too often.
parttime crackhead
Bluelighter
Oh well, Elvis liked a sniff. Anyone know where he's buried so I can go suck his dead cock?
True, in the end we know nothing about the kind of people they are other than the bit that's the talent. When it comes to drugs tho - Elvis leaves Iggy far behind.
No, his cocks still alive, it's just the rest of him that's dead.
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StoneHappyMonday
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 10, 2001
- Messages
- 18,084
But do prescription drugs that make you a fat bastard count?
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It wasn't the drugs that made him fat it was the 10,000 calorie sandwiches. Elvis once flew to Denver to eat a 10,000 calorie sandwich - that's as much as an asian baby elephant eats in a day.
Dilaudid seemed to be his fave - he once said "I've tried them all honey and dilaudid is the best". Either Dilaudid or Demerol anyway - I forget which one it was now.
Dilaudid seemed to be his fave - he once said "I've tried them all honey and dilaudid is the best". Either Dilaudid or Demerol anyway - I forget which one it was now.
They count towards a King-sized hypocrisy towards the politics of drugs.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/when-elvis-met-nixon-69892425/#d1AWimsddR0pcCgl.99
Elvis wasn't rebellious in a party political sense - he was political in the sense that he created the most rebellious form of music single handedly. And he did it in the deep south. That takes an awful lot of courage. That's way more rebellious than being left or right-wing in your politics.
Incidentally you could quote Neil Young saying Ronald Reagan was great too. Doesn't mean he didn't write Ohio.
Incidentally you could quote Neil Young saying Ronald Reagan was great too. Doesn't mean he didn't write Ohio.
The most rebellious form of music?
I wasnt really talking about party politics - more that Elvis wanted, was granted - and allegedly used - a DEA badge to act out the role of a narcotics cop to fight "the enemy". Whether Nixon or JFK had granted him his wish, it still makes him one reactionary motherfucker.
There is rebel music and then there's rebel music - but 1950s rock'n'roll was still largely songs about boy+girl politics, thematically.
A white man playing "black" music might be rebellious on some level, but how do you define or quantify what is more rebellious?
Artists like Sam Cooke "crossing over" from 'gospel' to 'soul' seems just as brave and unprecedented to me - and he didnt cop out and join the armed forces; he got killed in the 'war' at home, for being a black man.
John and Yoko producing a David Peel and the Lower East Side record ("the pope smokes dope" to be released on Apple Records) in the early '70s seems pretty rebellious to me - it was banned in all but 2 or 3 countries, and is the third in a series of very risqué albums made by Peel.
Rebellion is as contextual as any art - and while I agree the Deep South in the early 1950s was a dangerous place and deeply bigoted place - was it any more so than late 60s Detroit, the 70s Bowery or 80s Soweto for that matter?
I don't think Elvis did anything "single-handedly" - rock'n'roll grew out of a number of cultural and social elements that allowed it to explode how and when it did.
I'd just like to say thanks to the EADD mods for allowing this digression to flourish.
Fuck the Lounge, this subforum is quality IMO. Much respect.
I wasnt really talking about party politics - more that Elvis wanted, was granted - and allegedly used - a DEA badge to act out the role of a narcotics cop to fight "the enemy". Whether Nixon or JFK had granted him his wish, it still makes him one reactionary motherfucker.
There is rebel music and then there's rebel music - but 1950s rock'n'roll was still largely songs about boy+girl politics, thematically.
A white man playing "black" music might be rebellious on some level, but how do you define or quantify what is more rebellious?
Artists like Sam Cooke "crossing over" from 'gospel' to 'soul' seems just as brave and unprecedented to me - and he didnt cop out and join the armed forces; he got killed in the 'war' at home, for being a black man.
John and Yoko producing a David Peel and the Lower East Side record ("the pope smokes dope" to be released on Apple Records) in the early '70s seems pretty rebellious to me - it was banned in all but 2 or 3 countries, and is the third in a series of very risqué albums made by Peel.
Rebellion is as contextual as any art - and while I agree the Deep South in the early 1950s was a dangerous place and deeply bigoted place - was it any more so than late 60s Detroit, the 70s Bowery or 80s Soweto for that matter?
I don't think Elvis did anything "single-handedly" - rock'n'roll grew out of a number of cultural and social elements that allowed it to explode how and when it did.
I'd just like to say thanks to the EADD mods for allowing this digression to flourish.
Fuck the Lounge, this subforum is quality IMO. Much respect.
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I wasnt really talking about party politics - more that Elvis wanted, was granted - and allegedly used - a DEA badge
I'm not sure how much he used it spacejunk. He got his step-brother off a cocaine charge, got someone off a pot charge in the mid-60s and he was shoplifting armfulls of codeine from pharmacies himself. I think he had a typical southern atitude towards street junkies tho and although he took acid himself I think he associated acid/the beatles/Charles Manson with the anti-vietnam war movement which he would've seen as unpatrotic. And above all he wanted to keep a square image. As Albert Goldman put it "Although Elvis's image turned square after the army at heart he remained the same old hillbilly cat exploring ever darker and more extreme drug use and sexual perversions"
Surely 1950s rock n roll made every other era seem tame? There's footage of a DJ saying "We need to stop this animalistic, nigger rock n roll bomb". It wasn't the lyrics of the songs that were rebellious it was the sheer energy and ferocity of it and the fact that it was seen as black music corrupting white kids.
John and Yoko producing a David Peel and the Lower East Side record ("the pope smokes dope" to be released on Apple Records) in the early '70s seems pretty rebellious to me - it was banned in all but 2 or 3 countries, and is the third in a series of very risqué albums made by Peel.
Terrible album tho wasn't it. And Some time in new york city isn't much better no matter how rebellious the lyrics were. Hunter Thompson memorably said about this period of Lennons life "In 1971 Lennon released Power to the people - 10 years too late". Regarding the pope - Black Sabbath said "Would you like to see the pope on the end of a rope do you think he's a fool" in the 1971 song "After Forever".
Mind you I did like David Peel "Have a marijuana". Although wasn't it disappointing how Lennons main man during that period - Jerry Rubin - turned Thatcherite in the 80s.
Rebellion is as contextual as any art and while I agree the Deep South in the early 1950s was a dangerous place and deeply bigoted place - was it any more so than late 60s Detroit, the 70s Bowery or 80s Soweto for that matter?
Good point spacejunk, you've given me some things to percolate on there
I'm not sure how much he used it spacejunk. He got his step-brother off a cocaine charge, got someone off a pot charge in the mid-60s and he was shoplifting armfulls of codeine from pharmacies himself. I think he had a typical southern atitude towards street junkies tho and although he took acid himself I think he associated acid/the beatles/Charles Manson with the anti-vietnam war movement which he would've seen as unpatrotic. And above all he wanted to keep a square image. As Albert Goldman put it "Although Elvis's image turned square after the army at heart he remained the same old hillbilly cat exploring ever darker and more extreme drug use and sexual perversions"
Surely 1950s rock n roll made every other era seem tame? There's footage of a DJ saying "We need to stop this animalistic, nigger rock n roll bomb". It wasn't the lyrics of the songs that were rebellious it was the sheer energy and ferocity of it and the fact that it was seen as black music corrupting white kids.
John and Yoko producing a David Peel and the Lower East Side record ("the pope smokes dope" to be released on Apple Records) in the early '70s seems pretty rebellious to me - it was banned in all but 2 or 3 countries, and is the third in a series of very risqué albums made by Peel.
Terrible album tho wasn't it. And Some time in new york city isn't much better no matter how rebellious the lyrics were. Hunter Thompson memorably said about this period of Lennons life "In 1971 Lennon released Power to the people - 10 years too late". Regarding the pope - Black Sabbath said "Would you like to see the pope on the end of a rope do you think he's a fool" in the 1971 song "After Forever".
Mind you I did like David Peel "Have a marijuana". Although wasn't it disappointing how Lennons main man during that period - Jerry Rubin - turned Thatcherite in the 80s.
Rebellion is as contextual as any art and while I agree the Deep South in the early 1950s was a dangerous place and deeply bigoted place - was it any more so than late 60s Detroit, the 70s Bowery or 80s Soweto for that matter?
Good point spacejunk, you've given me some things to percolate on there
Very similar things were said about jazz in the 1920s.
I'm not sure "rock'n'roll" was any more demonised - or scary - to bourgeois American white folk than jazz was to an earlier generation.
Rock'n'roll had sex, and more than a hint of black/white integration - whereas the various eras of jazz had both of these things, as well as a reputation for reefer, heroin and a totally subversive approach to traditional music structure.
Don't get me wrong - I love rock'n'roll - but at it's roots we have a pretty formulaic 12 bar blues structure.
Wanna talk about rebellious music? How's Charlie Parker - his revolutionary stylistic approach, as well as his appetite for booze, sex and smack?
Miles Davis, likewise - or, hell - what about Ornette Coleman and his ilk? Free jazz made rock'n'roll (specifically Sam Phillips era rock'n'roll) seem pretty tame by comparison.
Nice to find someone that's actually familiar with David Peel! The Pope Smokes Dope may not be his best work - but I agree, "Have a Marijuana is a classic, and much overlooked in the (pre)history of punk rock (because he was "singing" about hippies, weed and acid.
I didnt know Jerry Rubin took a shift to the Thatcherite end of things, but Peel's main fanbase for many years were the scummy street punk gang known as the "motherfuckers" (or "Up Against the Wall, Motherfucker", in full). Dirty, class war anarchists - something that has been pretty well suppressed in American popular culture for a long time.
Speaking of punk rock, anarchy and Thatcher - I find Crass to be one of the most uncompromisingly rebellious musical projects of all time. Say what you will about their music - some of their stunts and acts of subversion were incredibly amusing stabs at the establishment - and like any truly subversive art, showed the stupidity and cowardice of the political elite, just by creating their art (in its various forms).
Interesting discussion; who'da thunk Nigel Farage and his band of dimwits could provoke such a conversation?
StoneHappyMonday
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 10, 2001
- Messages
- 18,084
Don't get me wrong, Penny Rimbaud has done some truly worthwhile and accomplished things, but is yet another product of the middle class elite, public schools and Oxford University. Sometimes it seems our whole culture is at the whim of the bourgeoisie. It's why I particularly celebrate (Pre-butter ads) John Lydon. Finsbury Park working class housing estate upbringing connects more with me than yet another Oxbridge drop out, however noble that dropout became.
Class is far more prevalent in British culture than is ever let on. Some of the kids I grew up with weren't thick or devoid of ideas. They just either had it beat out of them or simply never got the chances afforded to the middle class.
Class is far more prevalent in British culture than is ever let on. Some of the kids I grew up with weren't thick or devoid of ideas. They just either had it beat out of them or simply never got the chances afforded to the middle class.
Sammy G
Ex-Bluelighter
I actually agree with the sentiment of that latter paragraph, SHM, but what about the abolition of the art school system, which practically created a crucisl generation of working / lower middle class types whose voices would othwerwise have been unheard?
Can't help thinking that the creation of comprehensives (which were always going to become de facto secondary moderns - factory jobs for the scum, bank jobs for the best) made sure that the eighties and early nineties would be the last decade with any degree of freedom and a real sense of social mobility through the arts.
Can't help thinking that the creation of comprehensives (which were always going to become de facto secondary moderns - factory jobs for the scum, bank jobs for the best) made sure that the eighties and early nineties would be the last decade with any degree of freedom and a real sense of social mobility through the arts.
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The advertising thing is sad - because it robs genuine artists of their percieved "integrity" - when the industry they've relied upon financially has in many cases collapsed.
I understand what you're saying about Lydon - his sharp-tongued honesty is a huge inspiration to me, let alone his art.
And Penny Rimbaud - yes, clearly a product of his background in one way or another. It's a shame Steve Ignorant comes across as so....well, ignorant.
Just before Lou Reed died, he did an interview where he said something to the effect of "in my day, musicians sold records - but that whole industry is dead, so you have to do what you need to do in order to make your art and survive. Commercials, sound tracks - do whatever you must. Things are different now"
As a starving musician, I totally agree with him, and think it is a very astute point.
My understanding is that Lydon used that money to make the next PIL album and ensure it was distributed, etc (I can't remember where I read or heard this, but I'm quite sure it was the case).
It's easy to bag out people like him for "selling out" - but for me the biggest act of compromise is getting a day job that robs you of your creativity - if that is even an option (which if probably isn't for Lydon; imagine if he'd taken one of the few jobs he'd be qualifies to do - and be a journalist! That would be selling out!)
As an Australian I have a fair idea of the brutal English class system - but only in a fairly abstract or intellectual sense.
I fucking love John Lydon and the few working class Brits who make it into positions of social influence, in one way or another.
Ironically - or perhaps not - Australia is being run by a government of largely Oxbridge educated toffs (minus the accents) at the moment. I hate the cunts more than I could possibly articulate; such an outmoded and dispicable caste system, and one they are trying to export downunder - yes, they've reintroduced knighthoods.
I understand what you're saying about Lydon - his sharp-tongued honesty is a huge inspiration to me, let alone his art.
And Penny Rimbaud - yes, clearly a product of his background in one way or another. It's a shame Steve Ignorant comes across as so....well, ignorant.
Just before Lou Reed died, he did an interview where he said something to the effect of "in my day, musicians sold records - but that whole industry is dead, so you have to do what you need to do in order to make your art and survive. Commercials, sound tracks - do whatever you must. Things are different now"
As a starving musician, I totally agree with him, and think it is a very astute point.
My understanding is that Lydon used that money to make the next PIL album and ensure it was distributed, etc (I can't remember where I read or heard this, but I'm quite sure it was the case).
It's easy to bag out people like him for "selling out" - but for me the biggest act of compromise is getting a day job that robs you of your creativity - if that is even an option (which if probably isn't for Lydon; imagine if he'd taken one of the few jobs he'd be qualifies to do - and be a journalist! That would be selling out!)
As an Australian I have a fair idea of the brutal English class system - but only in a fairly abstract or intellectual sense.
I fucking love John Lydon and the few working class Brits who make it into positions of social influence, in one way or another.
Ironically - or perhaps not - Australia is being run by a government of largely Oxbridge educated toffs (minus the accents) at the moment. I hate the cunts more than I could possibly articulate; such an outmoded and dispicable caste system, and one they are trying to export downunder - yes, they've reintroduced knighthoods.
spudgun
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2003
- Messages
- 1,676
Totally untrue - if you were lucky enough to go to a comp like mine (in which you were forced to do latin if you were top stream ffs) you'd realise comprehensives aren't the problem, but the way they're organised.People would pay out of their nose to send their kid to the public school down the road (which performed a lot worse) - in case they may encounter any black kids. Oh and to let them learn that life is all about taking it up the arse from the well known paedophile ring that was operating there.
People who send their kids to private school are scum. There, I've said it. If you're smart, you'll get on (whatever that means to you), no matter how many ethnics are lurking about.
Tax them till it hurts
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