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EU Referendum Discussion: Well That Worked Out Well Didn't It

Brexit, should we stay or should we go?


  • Total voters
    44
The big worry for me is that the EU would blackball us if we tried to rejoin. They are hardly likely to be shedding any tears over our departure, and they would be within their rights to make an example of us in case anyone else got any "similar" ideas.

Northern Ireland was majority Remain, wasn't it? It could split from the UK and unite with the Republic of Ireland (whose written Constitution allows for this) .....
 
I think this is a great point and one I was going to bring up myself. In a general election it can be hard to grasp how your individual vote affects the outcome because of our archaic system. People in this country simply aren't used to their vote truly counting which would at least partially account for the number of people who voted Leave and now apparently wish they hadn't. I have no doubt whatsoever that significant numbers of people voted Leave seeing it as a protest vote the same way they may vote Lib Dem in a general election just to kick the standing MP a bit.

I agree, but is this not what happens when the establishment takes the piss one too many times? This was definitely coming. The people who have been left frustrated in the past have had a chance to make their vote actually count, so many times in the past people have simply given up on voting due to the way that the system works against them. Every time we get shafted with a PM we did not vote for or elect we simply bit the bullet.

Another referendum, then what? Leave loses and we call another referendum? The threshold has to be 60% in favour of the winner, which simply will not happen. All I saw was rampant campaigning from the Remain camp, for this to be overturned I actually think you would see a larger Leave vote, just in protest as more people actually voted. People have been told how to vote, and the Remain voters (in my area anyway) were particularly aggressive, you don't tell people how they should vote, that is why we live in a democracy. That being said, it was a pretty fucking shambolic affairs from both sides, particularly Farage and his posters, which was a low point.

Everyone woke up, saw the big headlines of large images of stock markets crashing, end of the world type articles with graphics of the pound plummeting, with very few reporting the euro making bounds and bouncing back to levels we saw previously just this year, and the FTSE returning to levels we saw just weeks ago, pure scaremongering, but its whatever makes for a good headline these days in journalism.S

Speaking to the BBC, Mr Farage denied that his suggestion he would fight for a second referendum would further stoke tensions in the Leave campaign.
"I'm not putting it on the agenda, I don't want a second referendum - I want to win this one," he said.

What makes you think I don't follow the news StoneHappyMondays, I certainty don't follow the Mirror. You seem completely engrossed in this anyhow, as a Leave voter in your eyes am I an uneducated, racist, elderly man? Or am I entitled to my own opinion without personal insults? You seem extremely bitter.
 
The big worry for me is that the EU would blackball us if we tried to rejoin. They are hardly likely to be shedding any tears over our departure, and they would be within their rights to make an example of us in case anyone else got any "similar" ideas.

The impression I got from seeing some of the comments coming from the EU leaders was essentially: "Well we never liked you anyway so fuck off". This was pretty obviously going to be the feeling of at least a good section of our ex-colleagues on the Continent and was always going to be a significant problem when it came to negotiating any future trade deals with them. How the hell they managed to convince enough people that this wasn't the case is beyond me. Or would be if it wasn't for the fact most people who voted Leave were totally focussed on immigration to the exclusion of all other things.

Northern Ireland was majority Remain, wasn't it? It could split from the UK and unite with the Republic of Ireland (whose written Constitution allows for this) .....

They were. As was Scotland. Sadly Wales wasn't but I rather suspect they may change their minds when all those handy EU subsidies disappear. Sure I saw a headline yesterday that said Cornwall (who voted Leave) were already asking if they would get to keep their subsidies. Which, again, says a great deal about the mentality of significant numbers of those who voted out.
 
I agree, but is this not what happens when the establishment takes the piss one too many times?

Indeed. The problem is that both sides represent "the establishment". One side being the (until recently) existing establishment which everybody agrees has a whole heap of problems but maybe disagree somewhat on what count as real problems and how big a problem they are. The other side pretend not to represent a related but slightly different establishment that is much the same only even more right wing than the existing one. Again it amazes me how they managed to convince so many people that this wasn't the case given how obvious it is.

Some would see the move to the right as being a good thing and that is just fine and dandy. I would very much disagree but disagreements on such matters are just simple day-to-day political differences. Many of those who voted to leave will not see this shift as a good thing but seem to be in complete denial. It'll be far too late by the time they realise though - it already is. Watching a few interviews with prominent Leave campaigners makes it clear what should have been obvious to all - that aside from the leaving the EU bit the rest was all porky pie fantasies (rather fitting for Farage, mind). There's gonna be a lot of pissed of Leave voters when they get to reap what they've sown.

... the pound plummeting, with very few reporting the euro making bounds and bouncing back to levels we saw previously just this year...

Of course the Euro went up. A big chunk of the UK economy is soon to be gifted to the Eurozone.
 
^ Cornwall was one that was heralded as "nailed on" to be a Remain vote, due to the money received by the EU and the projects within Cornwall, they actually received more than they gave out "statistically". This argument was put across for a lot of towns who received money from the EU such as Newcastle, with large "FUNDED BY THE EU" plaques everywhere. Kind of strange though, as its not really, its funded by the taxpayers money, you don't see a plaque on all schools and hospitals "Funded by YOU, with YOUR money". But.whatever :p
 
^ Cornwall was one that was heralded as "nailed on" to be a Remain vote, due to the money received by the EU and the projects within Cornwall, they actually received more than they gave out "statistically". This argument was put across for a lot of towns who received money from the EU such as Newcastle, with large "FUNDED BY THE EU" plaques everywhere. Kind of strange though, as its not really, its funded by the taxpayers money, you don't see a plaque on all schools and hospitals "Funded by YOU, with YOUR money". But.whatever :p

So that funding will now come directly from the treasury won't it ?

Course it will.
 
The EADD poll on this topics was also quite noteworthy, the Leave voters have at large remained quiet, not many like political conflict in person, there was a hell of a lot of quiet voters. Even just looking at this forum the poll says one thing, the people willing to have a debate says another. Reading through I saw that Betfair was trading at 1.14 to remain, which in most cases is pretty much nailed on, predictions that it would be a 75% landslide victors for Remain. As a social media user (yay) all I saw was Remain, not a single Out voter at all within my "Facebook friends", most scared of getting into a debate and being branded a racist, as SHM pointed out, "99% of out voters citied immigration", a fact quoted somewhere from within himself I think.

Now though slowly, more and more Out voters are giving their voice on the matter.
 
Which is surely a good thing. There is clearly a significant difference of opinion across the country and talking it through is the only way to make any headway on getting beyond the butting of heads stuff. Would have been much more useful if that had come before the referendum, mind.
 
Well I just voted myself the other day. Voted to leave. Because the EU is a moneygrubbing, fascist, lie-spewing abomination.

I don't think you could fairly criticize people as 'little englanders' if the vote were ignored, and those voters told, basically, sorry you voted for the wrong answer, fuck off.
 
@ABPI
^ You use social media right ?


Then you will know it's more than 6 dm readers.

Plenty of bregret on twitter.

I can't even see why you're so bitter. You got your way. The UK is splitting up, the economy is going to get fucked, 350 million won't be going to the NHS, we will still have freedom of movement to EU citizens. You should be happy.
 
Oh I do apologise. Please do lay out the standards to be met when posting a link some may find slight humour in...
8)

Apologies, the intensity of the thread made me lose all inabilities of humor :D I dont know when anyone is being serious or not :sus:

@ABPI
^ You use social media right ?


Then you will know it's more than 6 dm readers.

Plenty of bregret on twitter.

I can't even see why you're so bitter. You got your way. The UK is splitting up, the economy is going to get fucked, 350 million won't be going to the NHS, we will still have freedom of movement to EU citizens. You should be happy.

I will narrow my social media use down to "Facebook", not on the rest unfortunately. I am not bitter in the slightest, how would I be? I voted for what I wanted, I woke up a happy man, albeit a very surprised man at what had actually happened. Its a real shame we could not have had the best of both worlds, as being a member of the EU offered us so much, yet Cameron went and tried to reason with the others, and got told to fuck off, a compromise would have suited everyone (even me), but no one from the EU wanted to listen, Cameron was sent home with his tail between his legs, called for a referendum which he thought would be an easy win, now the rest of the leaders are left with a bloody nose. £120 billion odd wiped off the 400 top richest people in the world in minutes, I will save my tears for later. Now they want us gone as soon as possible, as years of uncertainty is terrible for the stock market.

If Brussels had listened to Camerons genuine threats of leaving the EU then we would not be in this position, we would have come to a conclusion that would have suited both remain and leave voters, and for that reason I find it hilarious listening to the leaders of other countries denouncing us.
 
This is reminding me of a new chapter of the Zimbardo experiment; in which the "inmates" escape from their cells, find the keys and at once lock up their former "captors". They then discover the governor's drinks cabinet, and so commence several nights on the bounce of alcohol-fuelled debauchery. We re-join the proceedings at the stage where people are clutching their aching heads and bellies, moaning; and staring in horror at Social Media sites, and just what they uploaded video of themselves doing ..... And the comments it has attracted .....
 
I will narrow my social media use down to "Facebook",

You may not have seen this then :




"If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

People say a second referendum is unlikely and political suicide. I don't think it is as unlikely as people think. So many who voted Leave now realize what the costs will be and how the Leave campaign has already broken major promises. It's finally sinking in that leaving the EU is going to mean the destruction of the United Kingdom. People now realize that once you leave the EU there is no coming back for decades.

The pressure for a second referendum will keep rising and how can a prime minister deny the will of the people who will want another democratic election. It is still democratic after all and if the people wish to leave the votes would reflect that. Of course the vote will likely heavily go towards Remain now the large chunk of undecided, soft Leave and people who didn't show up (screw them) actually go vote. The whole crisis will be averted and UKIP will have to make peace with that if it goes heavily towards Remain. Even Farrage wanted another referendum if it was 52/48 and that quote is going to haunt him for a long time.

Calling a second referendum might be political suicide for the next Tory prime minister but they are going to commit political suicide taking the position anyway and none of them really want that legacy"
 
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You're still presupposing that the EU will even allow us to change our minds. They might not. There is a political point to be made here, and "Emotional blackmail is a guaranteed sure-fire way of achieving your objectives" is not that point. An example must be made of the UK, to deter other countries making noises about leaving. A reunited Ireland might be allowed to continue as a probationary member of the EU, and a newly-independent Scotland might be guaranteed probationary membership on request, just to rub English noses even deeper in it.

..... But we were cooking on that barbecue, man!
 
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