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enlightenment √ now what...?

DHYANA said:
There's also tons of hours of incredible and deep silence where staring at a wall your brain transforms (DMT and 5-meo-DMT release) and you feel things click into place. This is called 'samadhi' and can be experienced in degrees.
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I've experienced samadhi and I've experienced heavy DMT trips, and would have to say that they are strikingly close, but I wouldn't say that the experience of samadhi is caused by endogenous DMT. Whether or not DMT actually has a function or is a metabolite or intermediate or a genuine neurotransmitter is unproven. Given the fact that a number of compounds can produce intense psychedelic experiences that all have a serotonergic effect, I could almost believe that a very specific, localized and heavy release of serotonin itself is responsible for the state of samadhi. Although this could be mediated by a release of endogenous DMT, I'm not convinced.

What I find super interesting is the relationship between concentration and regular practice and the ability to achieve a deep meditative state. This would have a lot to do with modifying the reward pathways, and I think that a lot of insight could be gained from recognizing the relationship between the reward system and the serotonin system.
 
Changed said:
this afternoon I was reading Watts' The Way of Zen and found it extremely helpful:

the perfect Way (Tao) is without difficulty,
Save that it avoids picking up and choosing.
Only when you stop liking and disliking
Will all be clearly understood.
A split hair's difference,
And heaven and earth are set apart!
If you want to get the plain truth,
Be not concerned with right and wrong.
The conflict between right and wrong
Is the sickness of the mind.

an amazing poem from "the oldest Zen poem."

he goes on to say: "The point is not to make an effort to silence the feelings and cultivate bland indifference. It is to see through the universal illusion that what is pleasant or good may be wrestled from what is painful of evil. [...] The logic of this is so simple that one is tempted to think it over-simple. [...]

this seems to apply perfectly to my situation of searching...
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Alan Watts was a pretty intensely insightful person. Not only that, he was able to bust down Dharmic spirituality and explain it very well in a way that everybody can dig. He was super-logical and so kind of had a way of making rational sense of something which was often mystified to the point of being redundant.
 
As long as you are happy and content within yourself, where you do not struggle within, and with the outside world around you, when you resist what is, and you try to Be and prove otherwise, then you suffer. Materialism keeps you on the outside and wanting, but it does not have to be that way. If you work to integrate your conflics and frustrations and resistances and go beyond them, and able to Be-in resonance within and your environment, and not live in an isolated space, to me that is enlightenment.

Reality is, you need the materials to survive, but if you are looking for fullfillment of gathering useless things, that is different to being realistic of what is necessary-in today's demands. What good is enlightenment if not for creating a peaceful inner environment that resonates with the one around you? You can live on the top of the mountain alone in enlightenment, does that make you in peace and in existance, within what you are here on this earth for? It is to live in good faith as in caring for what is in you and around you and being part of the whole and in harmony, and that, includes fullfilling your dreams.
To me, in a practical sense enlightenment is a tool to get us to that frame of mind! To have a choice how we live, to be able to make dreams and goals and fullfill them but also to come back where we live in the present moment where you come to meet your centre-in the end of the day. If you live in integrity within everything then you have achieved enlightenment. You don't need to live in the clouds to be enlightened.
 
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water,
After enlightenment, chope wood, carry water"
- Some old monk...
 
The most wonderful thing about enlightenment is "now what?" is not asked.

I tell you there's nothing to find. You don't understand and say "now what?" or "so?" You have not understood.

Listen carefully to what I'm saying, repeat it in your head, let it constantly idle in the back of your mind, and someday it will hit you harder than a Mack truck. It will be the most profound and at the same time obvious thing in the world. It is infinitely profound in that it can't be thought of, and infinitely obvious in that there is absolutely nothing you must do to realize it.

There is nothing to find. The secret is, there is no secret. That is the secret!
 
A good way I've heard it explained is that everyone is enlightened, there just are things in the way of realizing it and things to do in order to be able to realize it.
 
Changed said:
I seem to have been wavering on this precipice for a while- as if I'm so close to actually realizing the Right Path, but it's being blocked by something I can't see...
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Yourself.

Don't try to force anything, and it will come naturally. Let all your abilities shine, and work on those that can shine brighter. Do things that you are good at, and it will carry you through life so that you can achieve whatever you want to achieve, and learn whatever you need to learn. Do it for others, but above all - do it for yourself, so that all your intentions are guinuine and you needn't wear masks all the time.

Remember there is only one life that we know truly exists, and this life could be taken from you at any moment. We could speculate on ideals, predictions, truth - but in the end these are nothing but literal dreams embedded in an even larger dream. The only truth that exists is within you, and like vinyl grooves guiding the needle through the music, the truth guides you through life, if only you would let it. Be effortless like the needle, but that doesn't mean there won't be peaks and troughs, you will just realise those ups and downs are all part of this grand masterpiece, unfolding in due time. Pain, thus - is necessary, for if we never fall we never learn.

There is no 'real' Right Path, for everyone composes a different melody, of a different length, and a different tone, but they all seem to be playing from the same stereo. (set on repeat, ;) )
 
Nibiru said:
I've experienced samadhi and I've experienced heavy DMT trips, and would have to say that they are strikingly close, but I wouldn't say that the experience of samadhi is caused by endogenous DMT. Whether or not DMT actually has a function or is a metabolite or intermediate or a genuine neurotransmitter is unproven. Given the fact that a number of compounds can produce intense psychedelic experiences that all have a serotonergic effect, I could almost believe that a very specific, localized and heavy release of serotonin itself is responsible for the state of samadhi. Although this could be mediated by a release of endogenous DMT, I'm not convinced.

What I find super interesting is the relationship between concentration and regular practice and the ability to achieve a deep meditative state. This would have a lot to do with modifying the reward pathways, and I think that a lot of insight could be gained from recognizing the relationship between the reward system and the serotonin system.
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yeah I agree with you. I don't think DMT = enlightenment would ever be close to correct...its way more complicated than that. I like your idea to focus on the reward pathway modification that comes about through meditative practice. That seems to be on the money.

A lot of the gain looking back that I got from intense practice was a 'calming' of my incessant need for more, I want, I need to do, I like that give it to me, etc etc. That sort of thing drives a person crazy after awhile...calming that part of the mind has immediate payoffs in wellbeing.
 
As long as you desire enlightenment, you won't get it.


yeah, i fall for this trick also. doh!
 
DHYANA said:
A lot of the gain looking back that I got from intense practice was a 'calming' of my incessant need for more, I want, I need to do, I like that give it to me, etc etc. That sort of thing drives a person crazy after awhile...calming that part of the mind has immediate payoffs in wellbeing.
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It's hard. You sort of have to simplify your life. Having less stuff, and minimizing what you have to more focus on needs instead of wants is a major part of it. It sort of makes it all easier, as your life is less complicated (but not always easier, in certain ways). The attitude among many Hindu Yogis is that meditation isn't something that a person does, but something that happens when certain conditions are created, so meditative absorption can have an effect on a person's life so far as a person's way of life has to have an effect on it. In a society that says more faster better NOW!!! this can be hard. It's a big reason I stay away from certain parts of mainstream society as much as I can, and why I try to limit my wants and focus on simple, vital things like food, clothes, shelter, physical health and knowledge, and try to be practical about tying all of them together. I try to do practical stuff as a hobby, avoid unhealthy things, and try not to have a negative view of other people, who are all on a level playing field as me, evolutionarily and spiritually speaking.... and do a fucking terrible job at it most of times! But I try to create a peaceful atmosphere. Usually it works, and an orientation towards non-attachment keeps me from getting too pissy when I lose something, or something gets stolen, or when someone disappears from my life. And practicing control over my thoughts sometime at least every other day keeps me in enough control in ordinary situations not to make a knee-jerk judgement or forget I'm a pacifist and go for somebody's throat, which has happened too much already.

I figure it's an important thing for everybody to work towards, but a bloody hard one, and one that has to be kept in perspective and not taken as super serious business, because serious business is never all serious. Otherwise, a person can lose perspective and turn into a spiritually deluded asshat who thinks they are more awakened than everyone else and that everyone should listen to them, like Shoko Asahara, or on a less grim note, David Icke.

Anyway... that was long winded and ranty. Excuse me.
 
i think alot of people think renunciation is better than attachment, when in effect it is the same, just on the other side of the spectrum. lots of people ive met are just as proud of how "disattached" from material things as people who are attached to their things are proud of their possessions. I think enlightenment is in the mind, you can be a millionaire and be enlightened. though if you were an enlightened millionaire you would have no need to hold onto that money and would spend it to benefit as many people as possible :)

blah, hope this makes sense, im a bit buzzed.
 
Well, I think observing periods of non attachment, no matter what your position is in life to be of spiritual value. Total renunciation isn't practical for everybody, and sure isn't practical for me, but doing things like taking an occasional fast to break attachment to food, giving up a drug you've been into for a while, spending a day or two without speaking at all, observing occasional periods of celibacy, even in a relationship are all the sorts of things that build self control in a person. If a person is utterly attached to the trappings of their life, and never trying to experience a raw state of being, they're bound to be disappointed, and in my opinion will miss a lot of what goes on in life. For every million dollars a millionaire has, they could be missing a million other things, and the nature of economy makes it so that having a lot of money isn't just having a lot of money, it comes with a bunch of attachments that can make a person too busy to actually take time to develop their inner self. At the same time, too little can make it so that a person can't do this either. Really, it's not about being happy, or seeking happiness, but about being at peace. A person can try to be happy all their life and bring themself a lot of misery in trying too hard to be happy, but when a person chooses to constructively not give a fuck, then happiness spontaneously becomes part of the picture, but not a necessary one.

And I don't really like the word enlightenment. It more signifies a goal rather than a process. The process is what's important to me. Enlightenment is an anglicism on a concept not easily explained in one word in any language.
 
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Yeah, the at peace>happiness thing resonates with me, Nibiru.

Enlightenment can sometimes serve to be a buddhist form of heaven... some idea that will "save you." This can be escapist or selfish.

Furthermore, I think it's helpful to think of enlightenment as simply presence of self. Shed any ideas that you have to follow certain rules and guidelines, do specific things to enlighten yourself. Just "show up," and the more you are manifest in the present moment, the more wisdom is available, the more you realize that you can trust yourself, that the 'answer' is within.

When you show up, you see for yourself that certain attachments are not serving you. Shedding attachment shouldn't be a dreaded chore, imposed from the outside. It should be a joyous act originating from within. Ideally.

Just some of my ideas, you know, as someone who's enlightened.
 
;)








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Impacto Profundo said:
As long as you desire enlightenment, you won't get it.


yeah, i fall for this trick also. doh!
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no, no, no. Well at least in Zen Buddhism the desire for enlightenment (samadhi) is healthy. I asked my teacher about this as I struggled with it in a 5 day retreat. I felt guilty that I desired so much with my heart to become enlightened. He told me that it will help me direct my energy even better toward my goal. He said eventually the desire itself would drop away as well and would no longer be present. It did.

What is the 'it' that you get anyways IP? :D
 
The word enlightenment is a bit of a moving target that changes with the context of conversation.

You cannot attain the enlightened mind because it is always already present. It's just awareness, which you already have first and foremost. When you meditate, you identify with what is always already there, you do not attain.

An ever-present identification with the enlightened mind is another definition for enlightenment this takes work and is therefore attained.


>>Dhyana
Soto or Rinzai?
 
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Shakti said:
BurnOneDown, I consistently read you saying statements like this. I agree that enlightenment as long as we live isn't ever complete. It can always be deepened and this process is largely slow and steady. However, where I disagree with you in part because of the exception that is satori. It is all-encompassing immediate and very sudden realization (even though it is often the product of consistent practice). I'm interested in how you conceptually resolve this seeming contradiction.
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Granted, some personal experiences of deepening awareness due manifest as more sudden than others. I maintain the none are accurately characterized as sudden or glamorous. However, I acknowledge great variations in personal experience. My realization of Buddha nature was not especially sudden though it was significant to me. But, who knows? Maybe I have not truly experienced satori. Maybe no individual in the history of humanity has truly experienced satori. It seems unlikely that such personal experiences can be accurately described by concepts such as enlightenment and satori.

Changed said:
I'm guessing from the long-winded response that he is not one that follows the Zen point-of-view.
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I don't think it would be helpful to consider my posts to be indicative of anything more than my identity as a member of the bluelight community unless otherwise indicated. Zen Buddhism is actually something that I deeply appreciate. It has been a significant influence of not only my spiritual nature, but also of my practical means of living.
 
^well any such experience can't be fully described by any word. Yet it useful to give them names. In my own experience, my first direct realization was very sudden, I wouldn't say glamorous though.
 
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