• Current Events & Politics
    Welcome Guest
    Please read before posting:
    Forum Guidelines Bluelight Rules
  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: tryptakid | Foreigner

Tech Elon Musk reveals new details about Neuralink

I spoke my mind on this elsewhere, but basically, oh hell no, I'll kill or die as necessary to avoid one of these if they are being given out forcibly. And there are enough people who are of a similar mind, at least in America, that this nightmare scenario is not going to come to pass. That kind of thing would just beg for a "second amendment solution." They have trouble getting people to wear masks.

Other countries I hold out less hope for. Good luck if you're British :(

And furthermore, anyone who gets them voluntarily is a fool. And I'll elaborate ... to go even further, I wouldn't associate with anyone who did. If we lived in a society where stuff like this began to be prevalent, forget requiring the chip to do shit in life, I would expect people who did chose to get implanted with this kind of stuff to start getting discriminated against and even attacked, too, in certain quarters. At the same time, the opposite (which would be a given) would be happening from social quarters and partisans of the devices. It'd be a real faultline. If enough chipping was going on, I'd say, street violence every day. Killings. I'm not sure if I'd necessarily condone hanging chip-heads from lamp-posts, it would depend on the capabilities and potentials of the device, but let's just say that if I had the opportunity to be a part of a community that was free of them entirely, I would certainly take it. I wouldn't be surprised if the introduction of this kind of thing touched off some serious civil conflicts along these lines in addition to all sorts of other crises.

Cut'n'pasted from my post in the other thread:

Are you kidding? People would sign up left and right for this shit. I already know people who wish they could compute with their brains. Hollywood has sold people on this idea that humanity's future is high tech, so they will dive right into this crap without thinking. Then enough people will be doing it to cause a cultural shift, just like with social media. The majority of humans are sheep. Look at how many people are lining up for experimental covid vaccines before any long-term safety data is available.

When the commercial powers tell people to jump, most ask how high. Some neural implants that let people surf the web faster will be most welcomed. Most people have let corporations hijack their brains already.
 
AFAIK the tech is output-only and there are non-invasive ones...

The problem with non-invasive brain reading is that it's not very precise and kind of a hassle to set up. I think the bottom line is it will have to first be something people are willing to wear.

Sewing some sensor equipment into ordinary hats would be a start. The point is it has to blend in. Not blending in is what killed Google Glass.

From there, maybe improvements can be made to get enough useful functionality out of it. Right now it only has to be good enough to replace traditional input devices (keyboard, mouse) because I'm pretty sure we'd all be willing to pay a few hundred bucks for a hat that would allow you to use your phone without having to tap on that wee screen to make it do things.
 
What annoys me is that Musk presents Neuralink as though it will help cure a lot of diseases like depression and will have a massive impact. This kind of technology has been around for years.

I don't see it, feel free to explain, but what they essentially do is implant a couple artificial neurons, a couple, not billions because that is technologically impossible... It's obviously a great research project, but any of the things Musk claims that are possible in the next 5 years just can't be done due to the sheer size and complexity of the brain, the technology to process massive amounts of information just isn't there and nobody has any idea how we would ever get there, for now. So, even if you would send a signal through a couple of those artificial neurons, and through a lot of data infer what would be the result, since it's only a couple neurons, and not billions like it should be for complex tasks, any outlandish claims and hysteria are unwarranted. We likely won't be able to see anything close to what Musk is claiming in our lifetime, the whole interview is frankly ridiculous and painful to watch.
"Neuralink Corporation is an American neurotechnology company founded by Elon Musk and others, developing implantable brain–machine interfaces (BMIs)."
Neuralink was not founded by Musk. He bought it. He is also not the founder of Tesla, though his wikipedia page will say so as well. He got that founder title in court.
 


This is the state of the technology for now. RIP hype.

From there, maybe improvements can be made to get enough useful functionality out of it. Right now it only has to be good enough to replace traditional input devices (keyboard, mouse) because I'm pretty sure we'd all be willing to pay a few hundred bucks for a hat that would allow you to use your phone without having to tap on that wee screen to make it do things.
Big maybe, I don't buy it at all. Those are extremely complex tasks, it's not like moving a finger or something, and many of those tasks will likely be completely different for different persons. And you said it yourself, it's not very precise. We'd also need to monitor millions of neurons firing, not 4 or 5.
And yes for now it's output only, but Musk will talk about input and it's '''''possibilities''''' for days.

Luckily we have had Musk promising all sorts of prosthetics and such on Twitter already.
 
Last edited:
Big maybe, I don't buy it at all. Those are extremely complex tasks, it's not like moving a finger or something, and many of those tasks will likely be completely different for different persons. And you said it yourself, it's not very precise. We'd also need to monitor millions of neurons firing, not 4 or 5.
I stand corrected, apparently it could potentially be possible to measure electrical signals and infer such information. My Musk skepticism took the upper hand. You'd have to be mad to undergo open brain surgery for this though. Good luck charging the neuralink every week too. Apparently the device reads from about 1k neurons :)
 

From today/yesterday

I've been looking stuff up on this, it's all actually very cool.
There's something to be said for the invasive BCI approach Neuralink is taking, once technical, medical and ethical considerations are 'solved', this should be the way to go since you can use much more information, thus giving more accurate and distinctive results than standard EEGs, and thus would in theory be better for almost any application.
The problem is that the implant procedure, as well as the charging etc is a major issue for now, since both could have big health implications. Don't know how they're ever gonna be allowed to test on human subjects, because there needs to be a somewhat working proof of concept for them to want to, but the only way to get there is to actually have a 'product' that could potentially outweigh the negatives. Anyway, Musk is saying human trials will start later this year. They won't though.



The first tweet is interesting as well, but afaik this would also be possible with non invasive BCIs, and this apparently has been done: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-11/p-bie111418.php . The second one is uhm, yeah.....
Apparently walking is a coordination of 100s of muscles and a lot of sensory input, so this apparently is insane. Even from a purely computer science perspective, I don't see how they could ever do it. Looking forward to the updates! I'm unnecessarily hostile and suspicious against Elon, but I mean, you give thousands of paraplegics over the world hope like this and you better deliver something!!

Wouldn't have been Elon if he didn't connect it to the 'AI takeover' somewhere down the comments chain btw =D

If anyone missed it, here is the highly impressive Elon tunnel in Vegas, also from today! The city must be so happy with what they paid for :)
 
yeah the way non-invasive ones work is through inference... so the subject has to train somehow to be understood properly. it's not clear yet how accurate it can get but maybe throwing some machine learning into the mix can increase the utility of these devices.

maybe it's because i don't pay much attention to what Musk says, so maybe i miss out on his crazier ideas, but why are people skeptics? Paypal would be impressive enough an accomplishment for most people, he went on to Tesla and SpaceX and now Starlink and maybe next Neuralink.
 
yeah the way non-invasive ones work is through inference... so the subject has to train somehow to be understood properly. it's not clear yet how accurate it can get but maybe throwing some machine learning into the mix can increase the utility of these devices.

maybe it's because i don't pay much attention to what Musk says, so maybe i miss out on his crazier ideas, but why are people skeptics? Paypal would be impressive enough an accomplishment for most people, he went on to Tesla and SpaceX and now Starlink and maybe next Neuralink.
Don't get me started......

The whole Paypal story is ridiculous, he isn't a founder of Paypal at all. It's a long story, but his company X.com (where the CEO and many left, so he became CEO) merged with another competing company, that laid the foundations for what would become Paypal. He then seized the CEO position of the merged company. But since they kept losing money with him as CEO, they essentially fired him around 2000, but in his resignation agreement, he asked that he would be recognized as founder of the company, and all references to others be deleted. Then the company rebranded to PayPal, when Musk was already long gone.

His time before Paypal, after Paypal, Tesla etc.... I'll rant for ages about this guy
 
huh i didn't know that about him. i can't say i'm surprised though, all powerful people seem to be a bit machiavellian. tbh i might have done the same in that position. tech business is high stakes, some people fuck each other over just for the payout ... i admire that Musk is at least doing something useful with his capital. some people who have acquired that kind of wealth are busy acting like little dictators with their NGOs :\

edit: *some* people not *most* people...
 
i admire that Musk is at least doing something useful with his capital. some people who have acquired that kind of wealth are busy acting like little dictators with their NGOs :\
I would disagree. Any billionaire would in essence do something useful, because they offer a product that is beneficial to some people. Musk doing 'useful' things, that are 'for the betterment of mankind' is a carefully crafted image that does not hold up to reality.

What kind of useful things has he actually done?

He has been talking about bringing electric cars to the common man since forever, but their cars are still expensive as fuck. He has been praising his FSD (full self driving) module for years, yet Tesla is only at a level 2 out of 5 (which is hilarious since he won't stfu about how AI is taking over but driving a car is apparently way out of the realms of possibility). But due to his constant misleading tweets and comments people treat it as such. How is this different to any other car making company (apart from them not misleading customers and investors)? Oh, the same thing as at X.com happened at Tesla, he kicked out the founders, and got the founder title himself in court :rolleyes: indeed Machiavellian, and his past (and present too) is filled with stuff like this. Tesla also has about a 1000 lawsuits running against it, for union busting, workplace safety violations, Musk fraud etc etc... All the while, many of his projects are getting large amounts of taxpayer money, where he is yet to deliver (look up SolarCity, it's not pretty).

I won't go too deep into SpaceX, but from what I know is that their design is inherently flawed and dangerous, and I won't acknowledge that the goal of colonizing Mars (let's see him land something on the moon first) is somehow useful. It's also a lot of promises but actually delivering......

He's a billionaire like the rest of them, he has an image of a self made genius that is here to save us, which couldn't be more wrong.
What he has done for each and every one of his companies is constantly making outlandish claims that are completely out of touch with reality (Tesla, Neuralink, SpaceX....), yet people believe it. In that context Musk is purely a marketing man, and always has been, and his past indicates that he worms his way into things, takes over, and eventually makes a lot of money on the back of gullible people. Be it taxpayer money, stocks, overpromising and not delivering or straight up fraud.

yeah the way non-invasive ones work is through inference... so the subject has to train somehow to be understood properly. it's not clear yet how accurate it can get but maybe throwing some machine learning into the mix can increase the utility of these devices.
The subject doesn't have to necessarily train, this can be done beforehand, but you need to get data from somewhere... Machine learning is indeed what they use for classification, but I'm skeptical as to how they're gonna make it work for extreme amounts of data (in real time) for extremely complex things, and that's just the computer science side of things.
There is indeed utility, and it's a great research subject, but for what is likely going to be possible, undergoing open brain surgery is about the dumbest thing one can do. Realistic applications are likely prostethics, vision etc... but all of this already exists of course.
Learning languages etc? I think Musk watched The Matrix ;) it's startling to see him speak about this project, either he doesn't understand anything about it, or he's straight up lying and overselling.
 
Last edited:
Ummmmm...

This Microchip thing. A buddy of mine was talking about it. Says it’s going to be the coolest thing Mankind has ever seen!

Then again he was drunker than drunk and babbling on about how AI was our best friend and here to help further Mankind, so who knows what he was smoking...

😉

Edit: He also said Elon Musk was the coolest dude on the face of this planet, outside of the AI...🙂
Yeah the coolest thing! Did you watch the videos? ;)
This was already possible way earlier, now you just need brain surgery.

AI our best friend, maybe, AI is great, but given that AI can't drive a car without having to implement thousands of else if statements, we needn't worry about a potential takeover or dystopian descriptions for another couple of decades.
 
Yeah the coolest thing! Did you watch the videos? ;)
This was already possible way earlier, now you just need brain surgery.

AI our best friend, maybe, AI is great, but given that AI can't drive a car without having to implement thousands of else if statements, we needn't worry about a potential takeover or dystopian descriptions for another couple of decades.
lol, they've already taken over everything...😉

They cool people, though...
 
Where??
I can't even solve a fairly straight forward card game with neural nets.
Neural nets have a couple thousand of nodes at most, our brain has billions, and we have 0, and literally 0 idea of how consciousness is formed in our own brain, let alone that we can replicate it through classical Turing computing.
 
This article is about an alternative to Neuralink that has 1000 times greater precision in communicating with specific neurons in a circuit.

Brain Augmentation

In 2006, the first paralysis patient could control a computer cursor using just her thoughts and a brain-computer interface. In 2012, two more paralysis patients were able to control an independent robotic arm to grab a drink from a water bottle. Reading the brain’s electrical signals was an impressive feat, but no computer could yet directly influence the brain. Today, as we still grapple with understanding the 1.4kg gelatinous mass inside our heads, Professor Newton Howard of Oxford may have cracked its code.


Howard, an ex-lieutenant of the American security services, was compelled to understand the language of the brain when he suffered a traumatic brain injury. Through his interdisciplinary research and collaborations in mathematics, natural language processing, and computational neuroscience, Howard proposed a theoretical framework drawing from mathematics, called the Fundamental Code Unit (FCU), as a way of deciphering the brain’s activity. Using this code, he and his team are now developing a device to be able to modify activity in dysfunctional regions of the brain.

‘Think of [the FCU] as Morse code – with Morse code, you are able to express a compelling amount of information using a very basic code’, Howard explains. The FCU uses what is known in mathematics as unary code, such that for example 110 represents the number 3, and 11110 represents the number 5 and so on. Similarly, in Howard’s FCU, when a single neuron generates electrical pulses, the number of pulses, their duration, the intervals between them all result in a unary code, for example 11110. The unary code is transferred to another neuron, whose activity is then directed spatially. So for this instance a neuron receives this signal and says, “okay your job is done, I’m going to neuron number 5 next to you” and so forth. ‘We essentially will be able to read from a specific neuronal circuit and manipulate specific neurons that are dysfunctioning and allow them to be re-coded to carry out their job’, says Howard.

The final version of Howard’s implant chip, referred to as the KIWI (Kinetic Intelligent Wireless Implant), is designed to be a tiny 1.2 by 2.2 millimetres, roughly the size of a grain of rice. It will have an astounding 1 million channels, made of materials such as carbon nanotubes, enabling them to connect to surrounding neurons very precisely and operate at a higher resolution than current implants. Compared to Elon Musk’s Neuralink device, which is the size of a coin, has 1024 hair-like channels, and connects to large populations of neurons all at once, the KIWI device has 1000 times greater precision in communicating with specific neurons in a circuit.

The KIWI chip would be especially useful for individuals with neural deficits such as Parkinson’s Disease patients, whose deficits occur due to a degeneration of neurons that produce the neurotransmitter dopamine, which gives rise to the characteristic motor deficits such as tremors and progressive loss of cognition. The lack of dopamine means that surviving non-dopaminergic neurons cannot be modulated and become over-active. ‘[The KIWI chip] is directed to be placed in the areas where neurons are not working’, Howard explains. ‘It reads the activity… understands what this information means in relation to the FCU, and reconstructs [these] “modulation recipes” in the form of very small micro-volt currents’. These currents would stimulate the remaining healthy dopamine neurons to increase the levels of dopamine; ‘like a train junction…[it] bypasses the damaged neurons to relay information to the healthy ones’. This strategy is based on the principles of deep brain stimulation, which involves using electrodes to activate dysfunctional brain regions in the hope that some of the functioning neurons take over control.

But what about Parkinson’s patients who don’t have dopamine releasing neurons left? Howard stated that ‘the KIWI chip has 3 therapeutic modalities. One is neuromodulation by electrical stimulation. The second is carrying on-board viral vectors for DNA modification. And the third is modulation by light [optogenetics]’, introducing the truly novel feature of his device. Optogenetics involves using a viral vector, with the replicating properties of a virus but not its pathogenic properties, to introduce DNA coding for a protein type called an opsin into neurons. These opsins are channels controlled by light, which can influence electrical currents in neurons, allowing the modulation of neuronal activity using light without the need for dopamine.

Unfortunately, there are numerous ethical and societal barriers to deploying this technology into mainstream medicine, particularly as viral vectors have not been widely accepted for use in human brains (though they are safe for use in animal and non-human primate models). Nevertheless, Howard says that ‘we are engaged in a discussion with the FDA (Food & Drug Administration) and waiting to hear what the outcome is’, and he seems cautiously optimistic that a version of the KIWI could see its way into clinics soon, ‘within the next year’ he says. Howard thinks that this technology is ‘something that needs to be adapted into the fabric of our society’, emphasising that ‘my goal is to see that things like neurodegeneration are not destroying personal life and personal dignity’.

While the science of decoding the brain is still in its infancy, Howard may have found one language that it uses, perhaps one of many still to be discovered. This language can be used to communicate with the brain to prevent debilitating conditions and significantly improve quality of life even in our twilight years. Technologies such as the KIWI chip are groundbreaking for science and medicine, the next step is for them to push the frontiers of society.

 
This article is about an alternative to Neuralink that has 1000 times greater precision in communicating with specific neurons in a circuit.

Brain Augmentation



Very interesting stuff indeed, however it sounds like it's very much theoretical still, relying on relatively unproven technologies like targeted release of onboard viral vectors to directly mould targeted brain regions. Presumably these would have to be pre-loaded into the chip so would have a limited supply, unless the chip is somehow connected to a surface implant under the skin or something for reloading or recharging.

Additionally it seems like this is really designed to target specific regions with extremely high precision compared to Neuralink which seems to be aimed at getting a wide view but lower resolution picture of and access to the entire brain, at the cost of having to extrapolate from the lower resolution input. So this Kiwi chip although it is smaller appears like it might need to be implanted in multiple key areas in order to have the same wide field functionality that seems to be the goal of Neuralink.

Nonetheless, it's great to see there are other developments in this field still quietly happening with different approaches. I suspect the eventual long term outcome will be some kind of hybrid of all these technologies to cancel our their weak points and take advantage of their strengths. I'm sure it'll be a while yet before something truly scifi emerges but, here at least, in this thread and this small facet of human activity... The future looks bright indeed.
 
Presumably these would have to be pre-loaded into the chip so would have a limited supply, unless the chip is somehow connected to a surface implant under the skin or something for reloading or recharging.
Charging is wireless, and potentially multiple chips are connected to the brain surface under the skull. I wouldn't want to be the one to test this though.
The biggest thing about this might be that they say that KIWI is minimally invasive, which is one of the cons of Neuralink, but from the limited info I could find I don't really see how it is not as invasive, but I'll trust their word for it, it has to do with the surgery procedure.

Additionally it seems like this is really designed to target specific regions with extremely high precision compared to Neuralink which seems to be aimed at getting a wide view but lower resolution picture of and access to the entire brain, at the cost of having to extrapolate from the lower resolution input. So this Kiwi chip although it is smaller appears like it might need to be implanted in multiple key areas in order to have the same wide field functionality that seems to be the goal of Neuralink.
I think they do exactly the same, they measure activity in places they are implanted. The real difference is that KIWI claims to be able to connect to as many and even much more neurons + higher accuracy. In any case, you can implant as many chips as you want, and measure what you want, it's all about what you do with the extracted info. That's where the real challenges will lie, and the model seems like an excellent place to start. It seems that KIWI also has a 'solution' for input, neurons grow around the connectors or something, impressive... https://ni2o.com/kiwi/

Amazing!
I would lie if I said that I didn't love it that Musk got his ass kicked here =D hope both continue the good work though.
 
Musk is a weird dude. He's kinda like an IRL troll. His insane popularity amongst certain tech bro circles is also very annoying imo. My father, for example, seems to think that he's some genius billionaire mastermind from a "Black Mirror" episode or something...I just don't see it...some of these other assholes like Bezos, Zuckerberg etc, I can't get away from their influence even when I try, but Musk's impact on the real world seems oddly incongruous with his net worth, other than emitting lots of hot air. There just seems to be a weird separation between Musk's vague assertions, trolling, and blue-balling people, and the actual mark he's made on the modern world.
 
Musk is a weird dude. He's kinda like an IRL troll. His insane popularity amongst certain tech bro circles is also very annoying imo. My father, for example, seems to think that he's some genius billionaire mastermind from a "Black Mirror" episode or something...I just don't see it...some of these other assholes like Bezos, Zuckerberg etc, I can't get away from their influence even when I try, but Musk's impact on the real world seems oddly incongruous with his net worth, other than emitting lots of hot air. There just seems to be a weird separation between Musk's vague assertions, trolling, and blue-balling people, and the actual mark he's made on the modern world.
The idolatry and what he gets away with in general is insane, I swear that he's one of the biggest frauds ever, from the very start. Years ago I read some of his completely bonkers claims about AI, and so I discovered that there was a whole community of Tesla shortsellers and general Musk skeptics. Since then I see all the stories about him and his companies, it's legit something every other day, just how he handled the autopilot deaths and crashes last week was ridiculous, oh and the bitcoin liquidity testing too.

I don't think he'll be able to keep it up for many more years, his Full Self Driving lie can't stand for 5 more years (I think Tesla got last in some sort of self driving competition again hah), the CCP wants him out of China with legit complaints mixed in with some propaganda. I will enjoy the day where the man is as universally loathed as the other assholes.

My vision is clouded through all the negative stuff I see every day, but I really wonder what people have to come up with to convince me that he has made a positive mark on the modern world, the ammunition is endless.
 
Last edited:
If anyone would be interested, I doubt it, but whatever =D this channel is fantastic entertainment:



Biased but a great video. Other debunking videos are more serious and likely more worth it but all in all this was the most fun watch.
 
Top