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Ecstasy does not wreck mind, study claims

Severely - good point on the alpha lipoic.
It is a great anti-oxidant and it helps the brain utilize insulin more efficiently, which effects glucose metabolism.
Just don't take too much of it as it can lower blood sugar.
I thought magnesium was indeed an anti-oxidant, but I guess not.
It is a great neuro-protectant though - it strengthens capillaries and reduces risk of stroke.
It is also a critical component of 300 biological processes, including neurotransmitter formation.
More importantly, most people don't get enough of it.

I must say, the acetyl l-carnatine, did amazing things for me - the first time I took it.
Combined with a little Piracetam and some Vinpocetine it transformed me!
After a few hours of anxiety it flipped a switch in my brain - I was NORMAL, like 99.9% the old me.
Quite a defined transition too - the emotional impact was profound!
But the following week I tried to repeat the results without much success.
Maybe I didn't take enough or take the right combo, but the higher cognitive feelings never returned - instead it made me freak out!
Like being PISSED and anxious.
Maybe I should read up about its toxicity. :\
I knew it was a protectant during MDMA use - because it increases dopamine in the Nucleus Acumbens shell.
But I had no idea it was also toxic...
Good to know, but I wonder why it caused such an abundant and sudden improvement that first time?

CaliFortunate -
You have just written one of the better supportive posts for me.
Thanks.
You want some of my research links?
Um, that is a tough one - because I have read hundreds of abstracts, at least 40 full studies, and several META-studies.
The truth is, it is a nebulous and challenging field - because science is only beginning to tease out the complex secrets hidden within our nervous systems. It took MONTHS of reading to come to some of my understandings, not something that is easy to just pass along.

But one day I will return to BL with a comprehensive list of the studies I have done.
Maybe I should just write a damn book!

I recommend going to scholar.google.com and clicking on preferences - select 'medicine' only to narrow the unending results down.

Search for MDMA +META
Meta studies represent someone else doing what I'm trying to do - compress hundreds of studies to arrive at a comprehensive understanding. Call it cheating, but some meta-studies reveal LOTS of information with a minimum of effort on your part. Let the other guy do all the work. :D

The older studies from the 80s, many on rats, reveal a LOT of useful basic information about toxicity and the rate/range of recovery. They provide a good background so you stand a chance when you enter the more recent studies. It is a new language to learn - I only hope to translate it for other people.

At least you seem to have an awareness that many of our younger users lack.
I just assume you are not a teenager, based on your maturity level.
Whatever the case, thanks for your back up.

Ismene -

Can I ask you the same question?
How old are you?
I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that you are on the younger side.
The number itself doesn't matter, but your attitude does.

The problem is this - you are approaching the subject, which is quite important if you are putting this molecule into your brain, with a severe bias.

I know you think I may be biased as well, but I promise you that I used to think MDMA was a 'safe' drug too.
I wasn't a 'user' like other drug users were, and MDMA was only dangerous when it caused fever, liver failure, and hyponatremia from drinking too much water.

It turns out that all of the ACUTE reactions to MDMA are the result of nerve damage in the brain.
The smooth muscles that surround your intestines use serotonin to contract!
In the brain, this chemical is dispersed widely...and it has an astounding impact on blood vessels!
And the endocrine system is also closely linked to serotonin.
The hypothalamus controls digestion, including the sense of hunger and release of multiple enzymes.

Well it is the hypothalamus that causes the endocrine system to release cortisol and prolactin, the primary hormonal signals during MDMA use!

Cortisol breaks down excess serotonin through a diverse range of actions.
Go to wiki and just read - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol
Seriously, read the whole page.

MDMA causes a MASSIVE cortisol release unlike ANYTHING that occurs in normal life.
800% increase in cortisol!

It is well known that excess serotonin damages the SERT, or transporter protein, which removes serotonin from the synapse. Cortisol helps to speed up this process!

The massive release of cortisol during MDMA use is a DEFENSE MECHANISM.
Clearly, the brain is trying to maintain homeostasis by lowering serotonin levels.
That is, after all, the hypothalamus' primary job - homeostasis.

Did you know that in acute MDMA injury, like the studies you so readily criticized, the hypothalamus is hyper-innervated during the recovery process. It even appears that serotonin axons that begin re-establishing themselves in the cortex COLLAPSE back into the hypothalamus.

The hypothalamus not only serves as a switch-box for the serotonin neurons extending into the forebrain, it is the command and control center for the endocrine system (pituitary and adrenal). In this way, the hypothalamus connects your SENSES to your EMOTIONAL pathways!

It is through this tiny little homeostasis chamber that MDMA derives its most powerful effects.
And it is HERE that some damage is done, even during recovery.

Even after 2.5 YEARS of abstinence, former MDMA users continue to exhibit a REDUCED PROLACTIN RESPONSE to serotonin agents, including pure MDMA. This is clear evidence that the 'toxicity' of MDMA can be defined at a MINIMUM as the long-term reduction in serotonergic function.

But you want a link to a statement about it being a potent neurotoxin?
Ok...here ya go - http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/methylenedioxymethamphetamine.htm
Its on there, if you want to find it.

In vitro, or in the laboratory, it is commonly referred to as a 'potent neurotoxin'.
This means that it quickly causes neuron cellular DEATH through increased metabolic processes - known as apoptosis.

In vivo, or in a living brain, it doesn't appear to be as widely toxic.
Indeed, the amount of MDMA required to cause real apoptosis for the ENTIRE length of the VERY long serotonin neurons is WAY higher than the normal 'acute' doses given to rats. I seem to remember it took 8 injections at 20mg/kg to kill the entire sert neuron in the raphe nuclei (the brainstem structure where they all start).

But a LARGE accumulation of evidence has been established that leads to statements like this -

"MDMA is a selective neurotoxin that preferentially prunes the higher cortical axons of the serotonin network."
or
"MDMA permanently re-wires the brain."
or
"MDMA causes a lasting/permanent re-organization of the ascending axonal structure, with proximal targets restoring their original nerve density or even exp. hyper-innervation (hypothalamus) WHILE HIGHER BRAIN REGIONS REMAIN DE-NERVATED."

That is the one I like, because it most aptly describes the recovery process and it avoids unnecessary rhetoric.

Your bias about research is dangerous, to you and others.
MDMA is a drug, and like all illegal drugs - it has the capacity to cause REAL harm.
Any belief to the contrary is FOOLISH.

Even drugs like cocaine and meth cause toxicity in the brain that IS NOT WELL-UNDERSTOOD by RESEARCHERS.
Hmm...

Did you know that the majority of users discontinue taking MDMA within the first 100-300 doses, with tolerance setting in with as few as 6?
Even heavy users tend to quit this drug within the first few years.
MDMA is not a 'safe' drug - although its true potential for harm does vary across individuals.

But make no mistake about it - the effects of ROLLING exist on the SAME spectrum as serotonin syndrome.

All the pleasurable experiences you feel on the drug are the result of SOME AXONAL LOSS in the higher brain.
And likely the hyper-innervation of the hypothalamus, which calls upon the endocrine system to intervene!

Rolling is a TYPE of BRAIN INJURY - whether research can PROVE it or not.
Accept that, and roll with that knowledge.

It takes more than a few studies to come to a real understanding.
Hell, it has taken 3 decades of research and they are STILL working on the problem.
But rest assured - ALL of you...

The scientific community no longer debates about the 'toxicity' of MDMA.
It is KNOWN to cause certain types of damage, and it is CLEARLY linked with SEVERE reactions that lead to DEATH...and long-term psychological problems.

But hey - the 'DEA' probably funded ALL of this research.
We OBVIOUSLY shouldn't trust a government that wants us to think 'e is bad'.
Lets just keep taking it over and over again until they have absolute PROOF.
:\
 
I thought magnesium was indeed an anti-oxidant, but I guess not.
It is a great neuro-protectant though - it strengthens capillaries and reduces risk of stroke.
It is also a critical component of 300 biological processes, including neurotransmitter formation.
More importantly, most people don't get enough of it.
Click to expand...
I think magnesium is excellent to have as a daily supplement. I take NOW brand magnesium citrate, comes in 400 mg in three gel caps. I like the brand because it has all natural ingredients, and because 3 gelcaps = 100% DV, I can take only 1 or two if I have plenty of magnesium otherwise in my diet.

it's important to get magnesium citrate though, as the oxide form is TERRIBLE! very little actually absorbs.
 
First Bad Comedown said:
Did you know that the majority of users discontinue taking MDMA within the first 100-300 doses, with tolerance setting in with as few as 6?
Even heavy users tend to quit this drug within the first few years.
MDMA is not a 'safe' drug - although its true potential for harm does vary across individuals.
Click to expand...

Well that's not so far out. If you were to stick to Shuglin's recommended 4 rolls a year, that comes to what...25-75 years worth of rolling? Obviously if you don't moderate properly then you're going to start to have problems, but this doesn't mean ecstasy isn't safe. It means abusing ecstasy is not safe.
 
Good argument.
How many here limit themselves to 4 150mg doses per year?

Hands?

Hmm...
It could be easily argued that the MAJORITY of MDMA users, esp. on BL, are 'abusing' the drug - by your definition.

Besides, the people that tend to have MAJOR problems from MDMA never reach the higher lifetime totals.
Those that do insist that it is 'all good' and they just encourage all of us to keep doing it.
More should be saying what you are saying - defining 'abuse' as more than a handful of experiences per year.
 
^ *raises hand* lol except for that half-year, but they were all low dosages on top of the things i mentioned occurred in conjunction, and i stopped when i noticed negative effects and managed not to turn it into abuse and severe damage. so i think it's safe to say i follow the 4 rolls a year rule.

also, piracetam in general is a miracle

i like this discussion, guys. alot of you have had some really good input.
 
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What the study shows is that there was little difference in performance on a range of cognitive tests between the two selected groups. The headline "does not wreck minds" is a creation of the reporter.

It doesn't give a green light to the complete safety of MDMA usage. It's very hard to test for changes in mood and attitude associated with depression etc. And I think most us of believe MDMA can change those things. It would be interesting to see if a future study could find out if impulse control is affected or not. I would suggest that lack of control of impulsiveness is perhaps on of THE biggest mental factors in life-success. If you look at any group of people having big problems with their lives, like the contents of any prison you care to mention, they tend to have appalling impulse control. But as they point out, it's not a big step to assume that the sort of people who are out caning it at raves might have lower control than average anyway.

What it does suggest is that the brain damage and cognition claims, made as a result of previous studies, are possibly incorrect. I think this is cautiously good news.
My biggest problem with it is that because they needed to exclude other drugs, they probably excluded the more irresponsible users - the 5 a night every week crowd. I was in my 20's in the 90's in the UK club scene and of all the "big hitters" I knew (and I was certainly one of them) I don't remember any of them who didn't also do MJ, coke, speed and hallucinigenics pretty regularly. So it's possible the study is really testing relatively responsible use of the drug. That alone is worth knowing because then it puts it alongside other drugs like alcohol. I.e. relatively safe if you don't overdo it.
 
I am impressed...
And I hope that new MDMA users are paying attention to the trend on this thread.

The idea that 'binge' use is acceptable for ANYONE is a dangerous myth.
I am glad to see so many users clearly stating that they only roll a few times a year!
 
First Bad Comedown said:
I

Tell me, Bluelight - what do we gain from studies that proclaim 'Ecstasy doesn't wreck the mind!', if NONE of us qualify for the criteria?
Think about it...

[...]

I have argued that the criteria for participating in this study, and others like it, ignores reality.
The disparity between the 3% of subjects and the REST of us renders the findings of this study QUESTIONABLE.
Or at least very LIMITED in their application...

The authors agree -
"The researchers suggested their study may show that “illicit ecstasy use, by itself, does not generally produce lasting residual neurotoxicity” (brain damage). They further suggest that, as they took UNUSUAL care to minimise factors that might bias results, it is plausible that the results of some earlier studies, which suggested that ecstasy impaired brain function or caused brain damage, could be attributed to these confounding factors."

In other words - the factors that they are choosing to ignore may be the very CAUSE of 'brain damage' reported among typical users.
Click to expand...

Ignores reality? Please, can't you conceive the idea that the authors of the study might have other things on their mind than the "reality" of multiple polydrug users?

The point of this study is to look at MDMA use on it's own. It's part of the stated goal of MAPS to enable the use of MDMA within a medical setting. It's very important for them to be able to show that single or infrequent use of MDMA without concurrent use of other drugs is not harmful. This study is part of this work. What "we" as Bluelight users gain from it is totally irrelevant.
 
Yes, I can conceive that Professor John Halpern has other 'things on his mind' than the reality of typical polydrug use.

From his previous work, he appears to study the sociological and psychological effects of drugs.
It is important to note that he repeatedly finds few, if any, cognitive effects from the use of hallucinogenic drugs.
This could be caused by the real plasticity of the brain.

But this could also indicate that 'cognitive' tests are simply insensitive to the changes that ARE indeed occurring.
This is an important view NOT to be dismissed by real science.
Even Halpern himself acknowledges this, among other limitations to his findings.
But some readers on BL and the internet fail to live up to even his level of 'reality'.

Research papers, such as this one, provide questionable results - but they are used inappropriately by both news organizations and online communities like BL. Further, this incorrect and incomplete representation of the quite liberal study at hand is done without ANY discussion of the prevailing view - that MDMA does indeed cause lasting neuro-endocrine and perhaps subtle cognitive changes.

Under the microscope the effects of MDMA toxicity do not appear to be 'subtle'.
Perhaps one day the 'cognitive' tests will agree.

My opinion is that cognition, or intelligence, is very slightly dampened by MDMA use - EVEN AFTER ACUTE INJURY.
I would know.

The REAL damage that occurs is emotional in nature, not intellectual.
The very feelings that MDMA enhances are among our highest evolved emotional pathways.
And because these emotions are part of a physical brain they are subject to damage.

The literature on the psychopathology of former MDMA users suggest alarming effects that most certainly do NOT qualify as subtle.
At least for a portion of users, the results are catastrophic emotionally.
Some of them have killed themselves by jumping off of buildings!

But the research of such users also shows that with enough time, the most severe emotional effects subside.
In those with the worst depression (often heavy cannabis users) it can take up to 2 years for reported 'depression' to subside.
But endocrine studies suggest that even in users without depression there are detectable alterations to the endocrine system - EVEN AFTER 2.5 YEARS of ABSTINENCE.

This likely means that there ARE emotional deficits in these former users, regardless of what 'cognitive' tests say.
After all, the endocrine system is what connects your senses to your emotions.
And THAT is what MDMA is ALL ABOUT.

I find it highly likely that only VERY prolonged abstinence from MDMA (5+ years) will restore some of the 'endocrine' response in those users displaying the greatest reductions. Perhaps the subtle 'emotions' that are associated with normal endocrine function can also be restored in this way. For that we have to wait and see.

It is only appropriate that I point out - some endocrine studies have NOT found deficits in former MDMA users.
Figuring out the difference between these two possible outcomes is one of the goals of research like Halpern's.

Many researchers STRONGLY suspect that 'polydrug' use, esp. cannabis, is a leading factor that influences outcome.
Halpern is allowing for 'moderate' cannabis use but not heavy long-term use.
I believe this is one of the more valuable findings of this paper - even in the 'rave' culture, those users who abstain from heavy cannabis use are spared the more obvious cognitive deficits.

Now he just needs to follow up with these same people in another few years with endocrine tests...
And yes, they need to abstain from all drugs between now and then...
I hope everyone can appreciate how truly difficult such long-term follow up studies are, even with few participants.

I guess I'm done. :\
 
FBC please can you point me to these studies that have (or indeed have not) found endocrine changes/deficits in MDMA users?
 
First Bad Comedown said:
Yes, I can conceive that Professor John Halpern has other 'things on his mind' than the reality of typical polydrug use.

From his previous work, he appears to study the sociological and psychological effects of drugs.
It is important to note that he repeatedly finds few, if any, cognitive effects from the use of hallucinogenic drugs.
This could be caused by the real plasticity of the brain.

But this could also indicate that 'cognitive' tests are simply insensitive to the changes that ARE indeed occurring.
This is an important view NOT to be dismissed by real science.
Even Halpern himself acknowledges this, among other limitations to his findings.
But some readers on BL and the internet fail to live up to even his level of 'reality'.

Research papers, such as this one, provide questionable results - but they are used inappropriately by both news organizations and online communities like BL. Further, this incorrect and incomplete representation of the quite liberal study at hand is done without ANY discussion of the prevailing view - that MDMA does indeed cause lasting neuro-endocrine and perhaps subtle cognitive changes.

Under the microscope the effects of MDMA toxicity do not appear to be 'subtle'.
Perhaps one day the 'cognitive' tests will agree.

My opinion is that cognition, or intelligence, is very slightly dampened by MDMA use - EVEN AFTER ACUTE INJURY.
I would know.

The REAL damage that occurs is emotional in nature, not intellectual.
The very feelings that MDMA enhances are among our highest evolved emotional pathways.
And because these emotions are part of a physical brain they are subject to damage.

The literature on the psychopathology of former MDMA users suggest alarming effects that most certainly do NOT qualify as subtle.
At least for a portion of users, the results are catastrophic emotionally.
Some of them have killed themselves by jumping off of buildings!

But the research of such users also shows that with enough time, the most severe emotional effects subside.
In those with the worst depression (often heavy cannabis users) it can take up to 2 years for reported 'depression' to subside.
But endocrine studies suggest that even in users without depression there are detectable alterations to the endocrine system - EVEN AFTER 2.5 YEARS of ABSTINENCE.

This likely means that there ARE emotional deficits in these former users, regardless of what 'cognitive' tests say.
After all, the endocrine system is what connects your senses to your emotions.
And THAT is what MDMA is ALL ABOUT.

I find it highly likely that only VERY prolonged abstinence from MDMA (5+ years) will restore some of the 'endocrine' response in those users displaying the greatest reductions. Perhaps the subtle 'emotions' that are associated with normal endocrine function can also be restored in this way. For that we have to wait and see.

It is only appropriate that I point out - some endocrine studies have NOT found deficits in former MDMA users.
Figuring out the difference between these two possible outcomes is one of the goals of research like Halpern's.

Many researchers STRONGLY suspect that 'polydrug' use, esp. cannabis, is a leading factor that influences outcome.
Halpern is allowing for 'moderate' cannabis use but not heavy long-term use.
I believe this is one of the more valuable findings of this paper - even in the 'rave' culture, those users who abstain from heavy cannabis use are spared the more obvious cognitive deficits.

Now he just needs to follow up with these same people in another few years with endocrine tests...
And yes, they need to abstain from all drugs between now and then...
I hope everyone can appreciate how truly difficult such long-term follow up studies are, even with few participants.

I guess I'm done. :\
Click to expand...

I think if you're going to say that "research shows" you ought to link to said research.
 
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