Echocardiography of a heavy 2C-E/psychedelic user

[AA357]

Today I went for a transthoracic echocardiogram. I get them for free every 5 years and this is the second one I've had.
I had an ECG and a consultation with my cardiologist a couple of weeks ago. He said my ECG was "very unremarkable" and that everything seemed fine.

Over the past year I have consumed roughly 2.5g 2C-E, 10mg LSD, 100mg DOM, 0.5g 4-AcO-DMT and 0.5g DPT. I use psychedelics heavily and frequently... I have gone through phases of tripping 4x per week for up to 2 months.
2C-E is my favorite psychedelic. I take it a couple of times a week, typically in doses of 25-35mg but I have gone as high as 60mg.

All classical psychedelics have some affinity for 5HT2B receptors. Overstimulation of this receptor has been linked to valvular heart disease. MDMA and MDA are powerful agonists at 2B and, when taken regularly, are known to cause the same kind of VHD seen in people who took the diet drug fenfluramine.
Whether or not the commonly used classical psychedelics have the potential to damage heart valves continues to be an ongoing topic of debate. Personally I have always been highly sceptical of this notion. People have been consuming psilocin, mescaline and DMT for thousands of years... if the 2B agonism was a realistic concern, we'd already know about it. There is no evidence of any correlation between psychedelic use and heart disease.

I am waiting to hear from the cardiologist for more detail (ejection fraction, wall thickness, weight etc.) but from what I could see - and from what the echocardiographer could tell me - my heart looks strong and healthy and my valves are functioning very nicely... no regurgitation or fibrotic changes.

Just wanted to let everybody know, especially since the psychedelic I take the most (2C-E) doesn't have a lot of research behind it.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Thank you very much for posting this AA357!

 

[Listening]

Good stuff! Still, too bad that you think you're a glass of orange juice.

Seriously though, how old are you? Have you noticed any lingering effects from all that usage?

 

[swilow]

This guys always posts about how he doesn't experience negative effects from his frankly excessive use of psychedelics. The fact that one user has "unremarkable" EKG results doesn't mean anything really. Its anomalous.

Of course, its good to know that at least one excessive user has not damaged themselves; we could make some inference from that. I'd hate to think that any other users might try to apply similar logic to justify simialr usage themselves. Suffice to say, very few should consider using 2C-E multiple times a week based on the OP's ECG results.

Can I ask why you get these regular ECG's? Perhaps you have a remarkably resilient organ ticking away within you...

 

[veodo]

10mg LSD, 100mg DOM.... omg you are a hero!!


¿0% HPPD? ¿Is your mind afected? ¿Are you adicted to psychs?


That sounds heavy.

 

[InterestingFACT]

This is very useful--though of course anecdotal. Thanks.

Does your doctor know that you use psychedelic drugs?

 

[perpetualdawn]

The fact that one user has "unremarkable" EKG results doesn't mean anything really. Its anomalous.

It's not necessarily anomalous, but it could be. I don't think there are any studies out there looking at EKG results of chronic, heavy psychedelic users that we can compare to. I commend AA357 for providing us with this one data point at least. Maybe over time more people like him can contribute information on their EKG results.

Of course, its good to know that at least one excessive user has not damaged themselves; we could make some inference from that. I'd hate to think that any other users might try to apply similar logic to justify simialr usage themselves. Suffice to say, very few should consider using 2C-E multiple times a week based on the OP's ECG results.

Good point. I hope everyone reading this realizes that this doesn't prove anything about the safety of psychedelics with respect to your heart. It's merely one data point. To make any kinds of conclusions we'd have to look at a lot more people, a lot more EKGs.

That being said, knowing that AA357s extremely heavy use hasn't caused him any heart problems does give me a bit more confidence that (my) light usage of these drugs will be unlikely to cause heart problems.

Thanks for pushing the envelope and sharing this info AA357. I hope that in 5 years you come back here and update us with the results of the next EKG!

 

[Listening]

The fact that one user has "unremarkable" EKG results doesn't mean anything really.

It's not necessarily anomalous, but it could be. I don't think there are any studies out there looking at EKG results of chronic, heavy psychedelic users that we can compare to...

After thinking about it for a bit, I agree with willow's response. It may or may not be anomalous, but it's certainly anecdotal and finally says nothing about the safety of these drugs (other than that some people handle them fine, which we already knew without this).

I still agree that it's good to know, but I think that people will be too eager to read something into this information when it's really just (as you said) a data point, and nothing more.

 

[AA357]

Good stuff! Still, too bad that you think you're a glass of orange juice.

LOL what???

Seriously though, how old are you? Have you noticed any lingering effects from all that usage?

I'm 25, and no - nothing at all.

This guys always posts about how he doesn't experience negative effects from his frankly excessive use of psychedelics. The fact that one user has "unremarkable" EKG results doesn't mean anything really. Its anomalous.

It's true that EKG can only tell you so much... this is why I waited until I had my echo before posting this thread.
A full transthoracic echocardiogram with doppler ultrasound is one of the most thorough non-invasive ways of determining heart function... you get a detailed view of your heart from every angle and it tells you pretty much everything you need to know.
2B overstimulation manifests itself as fibrotic thickening and regurgitation (leaking) of the mitral, aortic and tricuspid valves... such damage does not go unnoticed by a trained echocardiographer.
I am waiting for my cardiologist to study my echo and get back to me with the specifics (I am very interested to know how strength training has affected my heart) but for now I know my valves are in excellent condition.

Can I ask why you get these regular ECG's? Perhaps you have a remarkably resilient organ ticking away within you...

A close family member nearly died from a very rare and aggressive form of cardiomyopathy, which went undetected for many years. Fortunately she got a transplant last year and is fine now.
As a result, I am entitled to a free ECG and echo every 5 years (despite being asymptomatic). I get an ECG/check-up first, then I get booked in for a full echocardiogram. My cardiologist is very thorough.

10mg LSD, 100mg DOM.... omg you are a hero!!

LOL.
The DOM didn't take long to get through - I was taking 5-10mg at a time.
TBH I'm more surprised/impressed by the 2.5g 2C-E I've eaten over the past 12 months - that's something like 80-90 heavy trips.

¿0% HPPD? ¿Is your mind afected? ¿Are you adicted to psychs?

1) No HPPD.
2) There have been a few changes in my personality/way of thinking, but nothing bad.
3) I wouldn't say I'm addicted... I just love to trip.

This is very useful--though of course anecdotal. Thanks.

Does your doctor know that you use psychedelic drugs?

Nope. The less they know, the better. I don't want that to be on my medical record.

That being said, knowing that AA357s extremely heavy use hasn't caused him any heart problems does give me a bit more confidence that (my) light usage of these drugs will be unlikely to cause heart problems.

Thanks for pushing the envelope and sharing this info AA357. I hope that in 5 years you come back here and update us with the results of the next EKG!

Glad to help.

Psychedelics aren't exactly good for your heart... not because of 2B agonism but because of mild sympathomimetic effects. They increase heart rate and blood pressure and promote vasconstriction (although nowhere near as much as 'true' CNS stimulants).
I've taken sphyg readings while tripping on 2C-E numerous times. On 50mg my BP maxed out at something like 141/93; pulse was 88 I think. A bit high, but nothing of clinical significance.
Like drinking strong coffee or being prescribed Ritalin or Adderall; I believe that psychedelics are quite safe for a healthy individual but should probably be avoided by people who have heart problems/poor cardiovascular health.

 

[Xorkoth]

I went through a 2+ year period where I tripped a whole lot too, 3-4 times a week for a lot of it. I took moderate doses and eventually pretty high doses for light experiences most of the time (tolerance is real), and sometimes I'd go for the strong trip too which required silly dosages eventually. I was 23-25 during that time. I'm 32 now... I had a basic heart checkup before I did ibogaine last year and everything seemed fine, but I've never had an in-depth analysis done. However I feel very healthy, actually now is the healthiest I've ever felt. I did a WHOLE lot of AMT and DOC and mostly things in the 2C family. I never got any HPPD or anything either, really I didn't get any negative effects other than periods of intense sleep deprivation (which was definitely a negative effect but it wasn't from psychedelics directly, they were just the reason I was staying up). In retrospect, I was doing them so much because it was helping me to stay positive and connected when the circumstances in my life were slowly falling apart.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Thanks for contributing your story here Xorkoth, this is a really interesting topic. I hope there are others here on BL who have something to add.

I definitely don't want to push my own frequency and quantity of use up to what you and AA357 have done, but it's really good to hear from people who have taken it to extremes so that the rest of us can get a better feel for the parameters of safety with these substances.

 

[AA357]

I went through a 2+ year period where I tripped a whole lot too, 3-4 times a week for a lot of it. I took moderate doses and eventually pretty high doses for light experiences most of the time (tolerance is real), and sometimes I'd go for the strong trip too which required silly dosages eventually. I was 23-25 during that time. I'm 32 now... I had a basic heart checkup before I did ibogaine last year and everything seemed fine, but I've never had an in-depth analysis done. However I feel very healthy, actually now is the healthiest I've ever felt. I did a WHOLE lot of AMT and DOC and mostly things in the 2C family. I never got any HPPD or anything either, really I didn't get any negative effects other than periods of intense sleep deprivation (which was definitely a negative effect but it wasn't from psychedelics directly, they were just the reason I was staying up). In retrospect, I was doing them so much because it was helping me to stay positive and connected when the circumstances in my life were slowly falling apart.

Thanks for your input. It's good to know that your psychedelic use hasn't appeared to cause you health problems. BTW I read your Ibogaine report and I must say; FUCK that shit!!! Ibogaine is now on my list of 'do not fuck with' substances.

Just wondering, what kind of heart checkup did you have? An electrocardiogram (ECG or EKG) and a cardiologist with a stethoscope can detect arrythmias, murmurs etc. but if you want a full picture of your heart valves you need an echocardiogram. It's pretty amazing really - you get to see detailed close-ups of your beating heart and all its valves and chambers on a monitor.

 

[AA357]

Here's another thing: People who worry about psychedelics and 2B are often quick to point out that Shulgin suffered from heart problems that were consistent with 2B agonist drugs. Thing is: Shulgin did a LOT of experimentation with MDMA, which he first synthesized in 1965. He famously described MDMA as "my low calorie martini" (Google it if you don't believe me). I don't know how literally he meant this (or how often he drank Martini), but it's rather disturbing nevertheless when you consider that the average American gentleman of the 60s and early 70s was knocking back 3 or 4 of those motherfuckers every night of the week.

 

[InterestingFACT]

Here's another thing: People who worry about psychedelics and 2B are often quick to point out that Shulgin suffered from heart problems that were consistent with 2B agonist drugs. Thing is: Shulgin did a LOT of experimentation with MDMA, which he first synthesized in 1965. He famously described MDMA as "my low calorie martini" (Google it if you don't believe me). I don't know how literally he meant this (or how often he drank Martini), but it's rather disturbing nevertheless when you consider that the average American gentleman of the 60s and early 70s was knocking back 3 or 4 of those motherfuckers every night of the week.

Even fenfluramine--which metabolized into a long-acting full agonist of 5ht2b and was taken everyday--only caused issues in a small percentage of users.

that small percentage was unacceptably high from a medical point of view, but consider that a much larger percentage did not develop issues: there's obviously differences in individual response at play here.

For what it's worth, weak partial agonists with a short half life like 2c-x's are probably orders of magnitude less likely to cause significant cardiac myocyte proliferation than full or strong partial agonists with a long halflife like DOx. Your data point is nice to have--but also rather unsurprising in my opinion.

But Shulgin was a lifelong experimenter with psychedelic and serotonin releasing drugs. He also invented and frequently used the DOx series, frequently used MDMA and MDA like you mentioned, experimented with aminorex and analogues, etc etc. He also had heart surgery very late in life.

 

[maddee2145]

It is very good to hear that psychedelics not make deep changes in you heart.

But my experience in other hand show a little different situation with liver.

I need to pass every 1 year the common analysis for liver - ALAT/ASAT in blood. (This too enzyms is the most important when you talk about liver health)

I am not drinking alcohol ,because it definetly kill me very fast due to my chronic hepatitis. But I use psychedelics instead.

I also use last winter 2CE,DOC,mushrooms,mdma (aprox 2 times in a week for 3 month)

Than I go to my doctor to put analysis and it shows ALAT about 120 (normal is 52 in male) and ASAT about 300 (norm is 42 in male) so normaly I needed to be hospitalizeted, but I didnt. Instead I meak a break for 3 weeks with healthy food and no drugs.

Than I pass another analysis latter and it shows ALT/ASAT close to 90. Well,offcourse alcohol,cofein and heroin is more toxic to liver.

But people definetly must to now that psychedelics is not so unharmfull. The most toxic from all psychedelics for your liver is mescaline and mushrooms. Offcourse toxity of that is nothing comparison to other drugs and alkohol, but the fact is fact.
Also Sasha at age of 70 have liver cyrosis as well.And yes as mentioned before he had a heart atack at age of 86 (was paralised for 2 years) and die in 88.

Actually die in 88 is not so baad at all for person who make too much experiments to himself..If he created more than 400 active compounds how many he created that was not active but still toxic?

I think it is not the reason to go to drink vitamins for liver after a dose of MDMA with mushrooms, but it still could be good idea! Everything is dangerous for human body, even the air is the reason for cell death. To make balance between poison and treat is a way hard ,but it must to be so in ideal

P.S. I must add also that my liver is not normal it is diseased with a virus and more vulnerable than healthy one.I think for me and others who have some problems with liver and even for healthy one it is a good idea to become a vegetarian instead of eating meat and fats. But I am too lazy to do it
There for I hope to treat my hepatits in this year ,because now it become possible and without any interferon therapy.

Well atleast I am not suffering from depression and psychologicaly I am healthy as a 10 year child.
My doctor is also very happy about I use psy instead of other dangerous substances. She even told be that is a good idea even official pharmacology can not use it.

 

[swilow]

^Thanks for sharing that. Just wondering thought, where did you read that Sasha Shulgin had cirrhosis?

 

[maddee2145]

^Thanks for sharing that. Just wondering thought, where did you read that Sasha Shulgin had cirrhosis?

I can not remember for now,but as this is very important to know to me due to my hepatits I made big researches in internet about toxity of phenetylamines.
There I read about mescaline ,that it is most toxic indeed from all phenetylamine family. ANd also know about Sasha`cyrosis. I think it was some narcology since book about psychedelics(not sure) and it was good because they tell true,not only bullshit about dangerous of it etc.

And offcourse we not compare now toxity of psychedelic with other substances which are more dangerous.

 

[Help?!?!]

I went through a 2+ year period where I tripped a whole lot too, 3-4 times a week for a lot of it. I took moderate doses and eventually pretty high doses for light experiences most of the time (tolerance is real), and sometimes I'd go for the strong trip too which required silly dosages eventually. I was 23-25 during that time. I'm 32 now... I had a basic heart checkup before I did ibogaine last year and everything seemed fine, but I've never had an in-depth analysis done. However I feel very healthy, actually now is the healthiest I've ever felt. I did a WHOLE lot of AMT and DOC and mostly things in the 2C family. I never got any HPPD or anything either, really I didn't get any negative effects other than periods of intense sleep deprivation (which was definitely a negative effect but it wasn't from psychedelics directly, they were just the reason I was staying up). In retrospect, I was doing them so much because it was helping me to stay positive and connected when the circumstances in my life were slowly falling apart.

Extremely similar circumstances. Just exchange aMT with LSD and 23-25 with 17-22. I've had most of the testing you could want and it's always been normal. I even did DMT daily for a year or a bit more.

 

[swilow]

I can not remember for now,but as this is very important to know to me due to my hepatits I made big researches in internet about toxity of phenetylamines.
There I read about mescaline ,that it is most toxic indeed from all phenetylamine family. ANd also know about Sasha`cyrosis. I think it was some narcology since book about psychedelics(not sure) and it was good because they tell true,not only bullshit about dangerous of it etc.

And offcourse we not compare now toxity of psychedelic with other substances which are more dangerous.

Okay, fair enough. Now, I'm not trying to be an asshole here at all, but you've made a few statements that are (imo) really quite important if true but there's been no backing up of your claims.

I have never read that Shulgin had cirrhosis of the liver, much less due to psychedelic use. In fact, I have not heard that:

The most toxic from all psychedelics for your liver is mescaline and mushrooms.

Where did you hear this? I am curious, because both of these drugs are ones I've used quite a bit and considered relatively physically safe.

Anyway, I am glad that you seem to be doing a bit better

 

[ungelesene_bettlek]

Today I went for a transthoracic echocardiogram. I get them for free every 5 years and this is the second one I've had.
I had an ECG and a consultation with my cardiologist a couple of weeks ago. He said my ECG was "very unremarkable" and that everything seemed fine.

Did you get Propofol for that, and if yes, did you like it? Or did you get just some lame Midazolam (aka "Dormicum" here in central Europe)?