Echocardiography of a heavy 2C-E/psychedelic user

[AA357]

I can not remember for now,but as this is very important to know to me due to my hepatits I made big researches in internet about toxity of phenetylamines.
There I read about mescaline ,that it is most toxic indeed from all phenetylamine family. ANd also know about Sasha`cyrosis. I think it was some narcology since book about psychedelics(not sure) and it was good because they tell true,not only bullshit about dangerous of it etc.

And offcourse we not compare now toxity of psychedelic with other substances which are more dangerous.

Thanks for sharing this with us. However, you mention that you also used MDMA quite frequently, which is well-known for being hepatotoxic and nephrotoxic. I can't imagine mescaline or psilocin being anywhere near as hard on the liver... MDMA is some very damaging shit.

 

[Help?!?!]

I've heard claim about it and read one of so paper about it. I recall it being about the soldier injected with something like ten through thirty grams of mescaline. Clearly it was the dose but I think the paper concluded that hepatoxcity was shown in other higher dose mescaline trials as well but not much else is eluded too. Solipsis used to post about it sometimes as well(just in general, not that he was experiencing it...!). Personally, I've done a lot of mescaline, sometimes in short time winows, as well in doses far exceeding what most people do and any liver function tests I had done in that time frame were all normal. Like the OP, it shouldn't be taken as much more than anecdotal evidence. It is a data point but graphs usually have more than one or two points...

Psilocin on the other hand I don't imagine to be very toxic at all.

 

[AA357]

Did you get Propofol for that, and if yes, did you like it? Or did you get just some lame Midazolam (aka "Dormicum" here in central Europe)?

Ahh, propofol!
I was given it IV last year before surgery. It felt absolutely AWESOME for all of 20 seconds, then I totally blacked out and make an ass of myself. Apparently I was trying to escape the operating room and scuffling with the doctors. I have NEVER experienced anything like that before from recreational drug use, and I'm a big fan of GABA-ergics.

But no... an echocardiogram is not a procedure that requires a pre-med. They hook you up to an ECG monitor, rub some gel on your chest and then go over it with an ultrasound scanner (just like an ultrasonic pregnancy scan).

 

[ungelesene_bettlek]

Ahh, propofol!
I was given it IV last year before surgery. It felt absolutely AWESOME for all of 20 seconds, then I totally blacked out and make an ass of myself. Apparently I was trying to escape the operating room and scuffling with the doctors. I have NEVER experienced anything like that before from recreational drug use, and I'm a big fan of GABA-ergics.

Well, I don't care too much about GABAergics (except for Amanita muscaria), so I was pretty disappointed about the drug that killed Michael Jackson. But when I'm on the narcotic side, I prefer good ole' special K, nitrous oxide, MXE et al. Maybe one day I'll have to try Ether...

But no... an echocardiogram is not a procedure that requires a pre-med. They hook you up to an ECG monitor, rub some gel on your chest and then go over it with an ultrasound scanner (just like an ultrasonic pregnancy scan).

Aha, I thought you had a Echocardiography and that procedure is pretty unpleasant and only sometimes made easier with GABAergics (in my experience).

 

[maddee2145]

Okay, fair enough. Now, I'm not trying to be an asshole here at all, but you've made a few statements that are (imo) really quite important if true but there's been no backing up of your claims.

I have never read that Shulgin had cirrhosis of the liver, much less due to psychedelic use. In fact, I have not heard that:



Where did you hear this? I am curious, because both of these drugs are ones I've used quite a bit and considered relatively physically safe.

Anyway, I am glad that you seem to be doing a bit better

Ah yes, I really can understand you well. I can not remember for now the exact source for the book. It was writed by some russian narcology doctor.
It was started from culture of psychedelic uses in human history. Than it provided usefull info about psychedelic family group. Provided history of opening.
Positive things like it could be used in alcoholism treatment as well as depression.
Than there was a comparison of different psychedelic types such as triptamines,phens ,benzos.With source about toxity and in pheniletylamine section it was provided that it is more toxic than psilocybin and lisergamides. There was also no source mentioned or any study.

But if you will be really true for yourself you could agree with this, because of strong anxiety and vomiting in early hours.

As about Dr. Shulgin I found it (here you can read that he died from liver cancer at 88 ) But I know also that he has an heart atack at 86 and was paralised for 2 year. And there was special foundation in Erowid to help him and many people around the world was sending him money, but it not helped. They spended more than 80 000 $. Thank you Sasha for your work,thank you forever!

http://psychedelicfrontier.com/good-bye-sasha-chemist-alexander-shulgin-dies/


citate from the source above "But Sasha always dosed himself first, starting with very low doses to minimize the risk of toxicity. Ann once estimated that her husband had tripped around 4,000 times in his life — that’s more than once a week for over 40 years!"


Anyway I think we must pay caution offcourse when using phenetilamines, but dying at 88 it is very normal I think, so do not worry a lot. If I still alive and my liver have no cirosis ,so people with liver without viruses will be probably not fill anything bad at all ) Maybe some good and healthy food is a good idea too. Maybe some vitamin from B group.

 

[maddee2145]

Thanks for sharing this with us. However, you mention that you also used MDMA quite frequently, which is well-known for being hepatotoxic and nephrotoxic. I can't imagine mescaline or psilocin being anywhere near as hard on the liver... MDMA is some very damaging shit.

Thanks for info about MDMA. But I used more 2CE and DOx at that time.

But you guys do not worry. Probably it is only characteristic for liver with viruses as my one. It is actualy more vulnerable to toxic things.
Offcourse I taked 2CE too often for me. (around 3 times in a week)
But it could be an indicator of toxity even for such unharmfull thing as psychedelics.

Also the fact that ALAT/AST analysis come to almost norm within 3 weeks is very important! It means this toxins are not heavy for human body. And come out very quickly.

 

[InterestingFACT]

I can not remember for now,but as this is very important to know to me due to my hepatits I made big researches in internet about toxity of phenetylamines.
There I read about mescaline ,that it is most toxic indeed from all phenetylamine family. ANd also know about Sasha`cyrosis. I think it was some narcology since book about psychedelics(not sure) and it was good because they tell true,not only bullshit about dangerous of it etc.

And offcourse we not compare now toxity of psychedelic with other substances which are more dangerous.

Mescaline is unusually toxic because of the very high active dose (200-300mg). This means that your liver has to metabolize a much greater quantity of drug than with other phenethylamines. This is in addition to the temporary impairment of liver and kidney function that psychedelics can induce due to vasoconstriction.

Psilocin is probably liver toxic to some degree as well--but mushrooms also have other inactive or slightly active alkaloids that probably contribute significantly to their toxicity. I would imagine LSD would be your safest bet for protecting your liver, though the 2C-X's are I'm sure ok in moderate use.

Of course the other usual advice applies: drink plenty of water, take antioxidants (especially NAC), and consider taking vasodilators like l arginine or l citruline while tripping.

 

[maddee2145]

Mescaline is unusually toxic because of the very high active dose (200-300mg). This means that your liver has to metabolize a much greater quantity of drug than with other phenethylamines. This is in addition to the temporary impairment of liver and kidney function that psychedelics can induce due to vasoconstriction.

Psilocin is probably liver toxic to some degree as well--but mushrooms also have other inactive or slightly active alkaloids that probably contribute significantly to their toxicity. I would imagine LSD would be your safest bet for protecting your liver, though the 2C-X's are I'm sure ok in moderate use.

Of course the other usual advice applies: drink plenty of water, take antioxidants (especially NAC), and consider taking vasodilators like l arginine or l citruline while tripping.

Thanks man. It sounds very hellpfull. Yes I remember tha was filling myself very uncomfortable while was triping on 2ce only 15 mg, but I forgot to take more water in forest and after 3 hours I feeled not good at all. Water it surely the first thing to think about I also noticed that fruits are very very cool indeed. Especialy with high level of fructose and juice something like melone ,mmm yamy. I think some people can trip on food tasting too )

 

[AA357]

Aha, I thought you had a Echocardiography and that procedure is pretty unpleasant and only sometimes made easier with GABAergics (in my experience).

That's exactly what I had. FFS read the title of my thread.

You don't say "I had an echocardiography"... grammatically that doesn't make sense. You say "I had an echocardiogram" or "I had an echocardiograph" (these are exactly the same thing).
Echocardiography refers to the science/medical practice. An individual procedure and the data collected is referred to as an echocardiogram/echocardiograph (whatever you want to call it).

There is nothing unpleasant, invasive, uncomfortable or forceful AT ALL about echocardiography. It's actually really cool. Unless you have broken ribs or severe sunburn or some shit; it is not in the slightest bit painful. If you want to know what it feels like: put some hair gel on your chest around where your heart is, then rub a pool ball or something similar over the area. Don't press down hard.

 

[ungelesene_bettlek]

@AA357: Sorry that my English is not the Oxford standard one, but for being native not in Wales, but in ..., I'm pretty fluent, I hope...

 

[AA357]

Finally got feedback from my cardiologist today. He analyzed my echo and apparently I have athletic heart syndrome - a benign hypertrophy of the left ventricle caused by powerlifting and wrestling. Other than that, there are no abnormalities.

 

[TrulyBlessed87]

I am just curious did you ask the cardiologist how he differentiated between an pathological ( bad) hypertrophy or physiological ( athletic heart) hypertrophy ?

 

[AA357]

I am just curious did you ask the cardiologist how he differentiated between an pathological ( bad) hypertrophy or physiological ( athletic heart) hypertrophy ?

Unfortunately all I got was a letter so I would have to phone him for the specifics. That's a very pertinent question though as there are some striking similarities. Hypertrophy is hypertrophy... the heart is a muscle and this is a normal and healthy adaptation to stress. Pathological hypertrophy is a result of the heart overcompensating for some kind of functional impairment: a futile response to an underlying defect.

I can only assume that in my case, cardiac hypertrophy has been accompanied by a concomitant increase in overall cardiac output and efficiency.

 

[TrulyBlessed87]

Thanks man for the reply. If you have any worries regarding your hypertrophy you should take terminalia arjuna. My friend has pathological hypertrophy and reversed it with this herb. I take it as a preventive and its pretty awsome.

 

[TrulyBlessed87]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4220499/

 

[InterestingFACT]

I am just curious did you ask the cardiologist how he differentiated between an pathological ( bad) hypertrophy or physiological ( athletic heart) hypertrophy ?

Concentric vs eccentric growth.

Individuals with "athlete's heart" have a low resting heart rate because of a greater diastolic capacity. Individuals with a non-functional left ventricle enlargement have a high resting heart rate because of a decreasing ejection fraction caused by mitral valve backflow.