EADD Theology Megathread

[Shambles]

Nice post, Rickolas

Gotta those peaceful, love thy neighbour, thou shalt not kill Christians...

Chilean police on Thursday arrested four people accused of burning a baby alive in a ritual because the leader of the sect believed that the end of the world was near and that the child was the antichrist.

The 3-day-old baby was taken to a hill in the town of Colliguay near the Chilean port of Valparaiso on Nov. 21 and was thrown into a bonfire. The baby’s mother, 25-year-old Natalia Guerra, had allegedly approved the sacrifice and was among those arrested.

“The baby was naked. They strapped tape around her mouth to keep her from screaming. Then they placed her on a board. After calling on the spirits they threw her on the bonfire alive,” said Miguel Ampuero, of the Police investigative Unit, Chile’s equivalent of the FBI.

Authorities said the 12-member sect was formed in 2005 and was led by Ramon Gustavo Castillo Gaete, 36, who remains at large.

“Everyone in this sect was a professional,” Ampuero said. “We have someone who was a veterinarian and who worked as a flight attendant, we have a filmmaker, a draftsman. Everyone has a university degree. “

Police said Castillo Gaete, the ringleader, was last seen traveling to Peru to buy ayahuasca, a hallucinogenic brew plant that he used to control the members of the rite.

http://wwrn.org/articles/39664/?place=chile

Guess they were more into that "Suffer little children" bit...

I'm sure it was all the ayawaska's fault. Definitely nothing to do with being brainswashed by a particular interpretation of scripture. You'd like to think a book inspired by an omnipotent deity would be less open to such wild interpretations really. Unlike, say, a book written by men who are known to be prone to badly thought-out ideas on occasion. Wait a minute...

 

[knock]

I watched the Channel 4 documentary series Amish: World's Squarest Teenagers last night, where they go on rumspringa - their chance, during their teens, to see the outside world before making the decision to be baptised and committing themselves to their ascetic lifestyle - or leaving their community permanently for the outside world. It was very interesting, and gave an insight into their lives but it also highlights the extremes of our modern ways by stark contrast.

They're very fundamentalist Christian and so it was surprising to see how open-minded and just very fucking likeable they were. There is something very charming and appealing about their simple lifestyle, although their strict patriarchy is a bit worrying and it wouldn't surprise me if there are unpleasant things going on behind closed doors that aren't exposed in this film, which is really more entertainment than investigative reporting. But very enjoyable to watch anyway.

 

[Shambles]

Have seen that one, Knock. Is entertaining. Have seen other films about the Amish and related sects that aren't quite so amiable, mind. Liked Witness though.

 

[Raasyvibe]

Nice post, Rickolas

Gotta those peaceful, love thy neighbour, thou shalt not kill Christians...



Guess they were more into that "Suffer little children" bit...

Thats such an incredibly ignorant comment.

Can't you see that you see that a minority of extreme abusers do not represent the religion and it's genuine followers?

To quote FN yet again:

but those who abuse it or do harm in its name are to blame, not religion as a grand whole itself.

Surely even the most committed Xtian can't fail to notice the rampant misogyny in the Bible and more or less every other religion on Earth.

Are you referring to the OT passages which Christians accept do not come from the loving God that Jesus represented?

That aside, there is some merit in what you say. By observing religion across the world (particularly middle eastern), and more notably it's history, woman are often subject to discrimination. And yes fear and paranoia would give a good explanation.

But it is unfair to attribute this to religion as a whole. In my 6years experience of church attending I have never experienced misogyny, think it's fair to say the attenders would be shocked if it occurred. It's not compatible with the Christian values of loving each other.

_______________________________

Psychology books are not claiming to be the words of God, written by men of God or any such thing. They also do not claim anything to be absolute truth other than what studies SUGGEST to show. Big difference.

My analogy was to compare the similarity in psychological research texts, and the bible, in that they both show primitive understandings then later refute them, to demonstrate a logical progression in our understanding.

Twice now you haven't grasped this.

No, I never claimed psychology books claimed to be the word of God. It was an analogy. In an analogy you compare 2 different sources and demonstrate a common feature.

Your keenness to reject anything concerning religion surpasses your common sense, and some of your arguements are now becoming ridiculous. You can't even comprehend a simple analogy.

So you don't think that there are a lot of churches who use psychology and trickery to wow their audience and take their money?

In the bible, Jesus told to lose our riches to enter heaven. Every church I've ever been too has been very concerned with charity work. Thats what Christianity is about really, placing your desires on helping others in acceptance of God.

Are there some who defy this? And use trickery to make money? Maybe there is, Ricko. Maybe there is... but as I KEEP saying to you:

but those who abuse it or do harm in its name are to blame, not religion as a grand whole itself.

Well.. because it is the religions fault. It's a religion based on an ancient book. This ancient book is full of vile, hateful, impossible, loving, contradictory, confusing, positive, negative, ramblings.. You have your interpretations and your beliefs on this book which you yourself just claimed to be "genuine". You are basically saying your interpretation of this ancient book of parables is the correct one.. mine is wrong, his is wrong, hers is wrong, anyone that interprets it differently is wrong.. Come on man think about what you are saying.

I can't win. You pose all these questions on the vile OT, I answer it for you, and you just dismiss it as "My interpretation". You don't point out any flaws in my answer, or show me scripture that contravenes my answer? You just blindly refuse to accept that Christians do not follow these old teachings.

Yes my interpretation is genuine, it's a pretty standardized theological answer and why in churches they do not preach the verses which do not show the love of God.

It's not hard to see really? If Jesus is constantly defying the OT, it's pretty obvious to see God did not intend us to ascribe these barbaric verses to him.

Look into it. It's an accepted Christian answer. I imagine any clued up atheists would see the sense in it also.

There is nothing wrong with two adult men engaging in sexual activity. END OF. But growing up.. hearing that this is a sin and you will burn in hell for eternity for this kind of this can REALLY damage a childs mental well being..

Just because you cannot see the wrong in homosexuality, does not make it definitively ok. It's a very complex/controversial issue,I accept, but you are in no position to claim you know best.

Who'd tell a kid it's going to hell for eternity for being gay, other than a spiritual abuser? Christians don't believe you're going hell for being gay. You'd best google that one up.

Rather, one could use the bible to advise the child not to actualise homosexual desires. This way, the bible becomes a helpful guide, as intended, not an instrument of fear.

Sexuality would confuse many people if it weren't for the bible? What were people doing for millions of years before the Bible? If anything the bible causes the confusion..

.

Go back to google, people didn't exist millions of years ago. Though, despite your error of facts, it's not a bad point nonetheless. What were humans meant to do sexwise before the bible? I'll admit I had not considered that before. There is supposedly a time of many thousands of years before any bible came along. What were they meant to do? A fine refute that is often overlooked.

That's all well and good.. but I don't think that the belief or a creator and or an afterlife should be so strongly linked to mainstream religion as it is all too often BAD.. The power it has over people is WRONG. No condoms, gays will burn in hell, etc (won'to o iinto child abuse), reaping money from the poor, spreading such ignorant BULL as creationism. Religion has too much power.. an all too easily (and often) abusable power..

It doesn't say gays burn in hell, it gives money to the poor and teaches respect to children.

Child abuse?...


ok, Ricko, I'll say it again, for about the fifth time now...


but those who abuse it or do harm in its name are to blame, not religion as a grand whole itself.

Like Shambles, Can you not grasp this concept? Or is it because you don't want to grasp it, because it is not supportive to your heavy anti-religious biasses?

By definition God already knows everything that will ever happen.. So he is creating souls knowing they will be subjected to eternal suffering.. It also kind of contradicts the free will thing, huh? If God is all poweful.. he knows the future.. meaning the future is set.. meaning we have no free will.

You can't send somone someone to jail if they havent commited a crime, likewise, you cannot create a hell if the souls have done no evil.

I guess God feels it better for the souls to have existed and seen their true selves, than not exist at all.

You've ignored this part so many times already but i'll try again:
Why are you not Muslim? Why are you not Jewish? Why are you not Hindu? Why not Mormon? Are you Cholic? Protestant? Jehovah's witness? Why not? The God in the Koran the same God as the bible speaks of. Why do you not believe Muhammad was the true prophet? Why do you not believe Joseph Smith spoke to angels?

Highly subjective answer, but an honest one as you asked.

Divine intervention and religious experiences. My God is real. The spirit of the church, and seeing the divinity from within bible words.

IF Jesus existed.. he was nothing more than a clever, cult leader trying to spread morals but ultimately seeking power

Nah, you couldn't have got it more wrong. Jesus OPPOSED those who were in power, which saw him having a prolonged brutal death. Not the actions of someone seekng power and personal gain. More likely of someone trying to spread the word of God he believed in.

 

[coors light]

Highly subjective answer, but an honest one as you asked.

Divine intervention and religious experiences. My God is real. The spirit of the church, and seeing the divinity from within bible words.

.

your comment is also quite ignorant as if the other religions dont believe that their god is real. what makes your god real. they are all Abrahamic religions so how is there a difference in your god. and what wrongs are there in homosexuality that you think the rest of us cannot see??

 

[knock]

GBL has just given me a spiritual experience!

Who'd have thought!

I am a satanist

There is no tension between good and bad. Nor love and hate! These are two sides of the same coin.

Disturbance and peace.

Movement and rest

Silence and noise

Light and darkness

Chaos and order


I am disturbance!

I am a ripple in the ether. :D

Laugh out loud!

Well, I am right now anyway.

I blame you shambles


Can you hear me?




Sshhhh!





Grrrrrrrrrr!

%)

 

[Shambles]

Can you hear me?

Yes!



Bwa

ha

haa

haha

aahaa

hahaha

!

:D:D

​

 

[knock]

​

​

:D​

xxx

 

[knock]

sorry for the racket!

 

[Raasyvibe]

Highly subjective answer, but an honest one as you asked.

Divine intervention and religious experiences. My God is real. The spirit of the church, and seeing the divinity from within bible words

your comment is also quite ignorant as if the other religions dont believe that their god is real. what makes your god real. they are all Abrahamic religions so how is there a difference in your god. and what wrongs are there in homosexuality that you think the rest of us cannot see??

lol, the "incredibly ignorant" comment was a bit mean on Shammy, wasn't it? He's ignored my last 2 megaposts you see... and by 30 pages he should have grasped not to attribute an extreme religious nutcase to the well-meaning religious folk.

Didn't mean come across as ignorant towards other religions. Was just answering the question honestly. In regards to "What makes ur God real", I felt I answered that in the text you quoted. I've emboldened it above, to reiterate the point.

 

[Shambles]

I've not ignored them I've just not gotten around to trawling through 'em and responding yet. Problem with these megaposts is that it just ends up confusing the fuck outta everyone cos the converastion is so disjointed. Much better for all concerned to pick out one point at a time to discuss. Given the famously circular nature of all discussions of this type it's not like the rest won't be back around again soon enough.

 

[Shambles]

Divine intervention and religious experiences: Are you saying that nobody who follows a different religion - or even just a different version of your own - is not having such experiences? Are they all lying, mistaken or misguided? How do we know you aren't lying, mistaken or misguided? You see it all looks the same from the outside. All religions are equally as nuts. Just some happen to be more dangerous and offensive than others. We probably agree on which ones those are. With one extra one I would add to the list, perhaps

 

[Raasyvibe]

Divine intervention and religious experiences: Are you saying that nobody who follows a different religion - or even just a different version of your own - is not having such experiences?

Are they all lying, mistaken or misguided? How do we know you aren't lying, mistaken or misguided? You see it all looks the same from the outside. All religions are equally as nuts. Just some happen to be more dangerous and offensive than others. We probably agree on which ones those are. With one extra one I would add to the list, perhaps

nah....other religions do a good job of encapsulating human spirituality. Bhuddism I particularly respect. Think your ideas of bhuddism and sexism are way off also... Your probably doing your usual trick of dismissing a whole religion by a minority of abusers.... even a quick google search seems to suggest the issue of females reaching nirvana, is a bit more complex than you conveniently describe.

I do not think religions are nuts, no. But do their job of accomodating our spiritual nature, but my own experiences have lead me to Christiannity.

Point taken though, if you do not understand them... or haven't really experienced anything supernatural... you may not relate to them, and then percieve them as nonsense

 

[Shambles]

I don't dismiss the whole of Buddhism cos of some dodgy bits here and there. It's clearly amongst the least nutzo religions. Bordering on plain ol' philosophy really. Just got a few unnecessary nobs on is all. Same goes for all religions. Even Christianity. It's the nobs I object to. Both the supernatural nobs glommed on 'em and the nobs wot follow them. Specifically the ones that do horrid things as a direct result of their own interpretation. If your particular interpretation harms nobody (arguably with the possible exception of yourself) then I have no particular problem with that. It's the nobs that go spoiling things. Nothing worse than being surrounded by undesirable nobs don't you think?

So what you're basically saying about other religions is that they probably also have some truth to them but got most of the details wrong, yes? But you would accept that followers of those other religions would say the same about yours and be equally as convinced at the truth they know because they see divine interventions and have direct personal experience of the veractity of their description of deity, design and divinity? And that many aspects of these competing religions directly contradict the other ones? If so, how is one to believe any of them in the absence of seeing any of these divine interventions or having any spiritual (more accurately religious rather than spiritual) experiences to go on?

 

[Raasyvibe]

I don't dismiss the whole of Buddhism cos of some dodgy bits here and there. It's clearly amongst the least nutzo religions. Bordering on plain ol' philosophy really. Just got a few unnecessary nobs on is all. Same goes for all religions. Even Christianity. It's the nobs I object to. Both the supernatural nobs glommed on 'em and the nobs wot follow them. Specifically the ones that do horrid things as a direct result of their own interpretation.

Taken 31 pages... but you're starting to talk practical sense, in regards to religion.

So what you're basically saying about other religions is that they probably also have some truth to them but got most of the details wrong, yes?

Yes, I suppose so.

But you would accept that followers of those other religions would say the same about yours and be equally as convinced at the truth they know because they see divine interventions and have direct personal experience of the veractity of their description of deity, design and divinity?

At this point I have to respectively discontinue. Never really spoken in depth to Bhuddists/Muslims and their experiences.

And that many aspects of these competing religions directly contradict the other ones? If so, how is one to believe any of them in the absence of seeing any of these divine interventions or having any spiritual (more accurately religious rather than spiritual) experiences to go on?

Follow your heart.



No, no that was a shitty answer. I guess it starts with making sense of your own life. If you can see sense to your existence and the experiences you've accumulated, this tends to lead you open to religious answers.

If you can't see sense or fairness in your life,you tend to turn to atheism.

If you've passed this stage however (Oh goodness... im going to
finish this tommorow...my brain is dead after a long day...)

 

[coors light]

lol, the "incredibly ignorant" comment was a bit mean on Shammy, wasn't it? He's ignored my last 2 megaposts you see... and by 30 pages he should have grasped not to attribute an extreme religious nutcase to the well-meaning religious folk.

Didn't mean come across as ignorant towards other religions. Was just answering the question honestly. In regards to "What makes ur God real", I felt I answered that in the text you quoted. I've emboldened it above, to reiterate the point.

you didn't really answer either question though. besides your intuition how is your god real? also seen as the Jewish, Muslim and Christian religions are all abrahamic religions would you agree that all worship the same god in a sense the one creator of all religions?? also what are the wrongs of homosexuality to a Christian. I know you say that the bible doesn't say that there is anything wrong with being gay, my question is what wrongs do you think we cannot see, as you say just because we cant see the wrongs doesn't mean there is none?

 

[coors light]

If you can't see sense or fairness in your life,you tend to turn to atheism.

could you also elaborate more on this statement. Im really interested to know were you are going with this. thank you

 

[Shambles]

More trouble from those famously fractious Buddhists...

Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims?

Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion. So why have monks been using hate speech against Muslims and joining mobs that have left dozens dead?

This is happening in two countries separated by well over 1,000 miles of Indian Ocean - Burma and Sri Lanka. It is puzzling because neither country is facing an Islamist militant threat. Muslims in both places are a generally peaceable and small minority...

March saw an outbreak of mob violence directed against Muslims in the town of Meiktila, in central Burma, which left at least 40 dead.

Tellingly, the violence began in a gold shop. The movements in both countries exploit a sense of economic grievance - a religious minority is used as the scapegoat for the frustrated aspirations of the majority.

On Tuesday, Buddhist mobs attacked mosques and burned more than 70 homes in Oakkan, north of Rangoon, after a Muslim girl on a bicycle collided with a monk. One person died and nine were injured.

But aren't Buddhist monks meant to be the good guys of religion?

 

[rickolasnice]

Don't have time to reply in full:

You speak as though all christians think the same about the OT as you do.. from my experience this is not true.. A lot (most) of them consider the OT to be the word of God and true to it's statements..

And as for reaping money from the poor comment.. You only have to look at the catholic church (biggest christian group in the world) to see they are making billions and billions, a lot of the time coming from handouts from the poor trying to get into heaven.

And like I've said but you don't seem to be able to grasp.. Religion is so often used for bad things, that is why I don't like it.. Again, like I've already said, If you want to gain spiritual guidance or touch up on your morals (both lame, imo) then read it for what it is, a story book. When people read it as a historical text of truth from God himself, it is all too easy and all too often used for evil *waves at the pope*..

You've said yourself you believe in evolution.. How does this fit in with your faith?

Here is a good document you may find interesting..

http://stopchurchchildabuse.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/CampaignEvidence-20.04.12.doc

It's a document about the evidence of child abuse in churches.. Here is a little passage for you:

"The John Jay Study commissioned by the USA Catholic Conference of Bishops in 2002 and published in 2004 found that of the estimated 4,392 priests (4% of the priesthood) in the USA alleged to have sexually abused more than 10,600 children between 1950 and 2002, only 6% had been convicted of child sexual offences. Only 1.5% of the reported cases in the study were deemed to be false allegations. In the 5681 cases where the church investigated and reached a determination 80% were substantiated. The survey excluded cases where the priest was completely exonerated. (John Jay Study 2004 at www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy"

Divine intervention and religious experiences. My God is real. The spirit of the church, and seeing the divinity from within bible words.

Bordering on the lines of arrogance.. A Muslim could say the same yet you'd say he was mistaken / wrong / misguided..

You know.. I got this little bible in my high school which had a list of things in the back which would point you to a bible verse as to help guide you on said issue.. Under career's advice it led to a passage about offering yourself as a sacrifice to God.. lol (unrelated to you raas, btw..)

 

[Shambles]

Taken 31 pages... but you're starting to talk practical sense, in regards to religion.

Nope. Been saying that all along. It's just the cheap shots and cheeky-tonguey type comments stand out more

Yes, I suppose so.)

Good good. Now we're getting somewhere. Nice to know what that we are on the same page.

At this point I have to respectively discontinue. Never really spoken in depth to Bhuddists/Muslims and their experiences.

And nor do you need to. Followers of all religions obviously believe what they believe for a reason. Or several reasons. In most cases it's simply an accident of birth - if your parents were Jewish you would be a Jew and accept that nasty ol' OT as being the divinely inspired word of god and see the NT as little more than misguided at best and heretical at worst. If you happened to be born in Pakistan you would most likely see Jesus as just another prophet - almost (but not quite) as good as Mohammed. If you were born in Egypt three thousand years ago you would worship Ra, Set, Thoth et al. Odin, Thor, Loki and chums if a Viking. Just so happened that you live in a predominently Christian (well, primarliy agnostic/atheist in truth) country so naturally gravitated toward one of the 35000+ Christian denominations.

If you were born Jewish, in a Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu country, in an ancient foreign land, or any one of a gazillion other possibilities you would follow a different religion. And you would know you had it right cos you would see interventions, miracles, signs and wonders which were clearly caused by whichever deity or deities you were arbitrarily assigned by happenstance. You would have direct personal spiritual experience of this arbitrarily assigned deity/deities. Your prayers would be answered. Except when they weren't. They move in mysterious ways these deity thingies apparently so any action - or lack thereof - is further proof of what you already know to be true because it's all so very obvious that surely everyone must see it. And most do see it. Because you see what you want to see and find ways to make it fit with your pre-existing beliefs.

If this were not the case there would be no other religions.

Follow your heart.

No, no that was a shitty answer

Not at all. It may sound kinda trite but is absolutely the right answer. Is what I've always tried hard to do. I can't imagine going through life any other way.

I guess it starts with making sense of your own life. If you can see sense , this tends to lead you open to religious answers.

If you can't see sense or fairness in your life,you tend to turn to atheism.

And here we disagree. I think. Am not sure what you mean by "see sense to your existence and the experiences you've accumulated". This implies there is some underlying reason for life which I obviously don't believe there is. Or at least have seen nothing to suggest there is. This is not the same thing as saying there is no such thing - simply that I see no evidence for anything like that so have no reason to believe there is. I am - as in all things - open-minded and quite prepared to amend my beliefs should it ever be appropriate.

So no, I don't really see "sense" in life as such. Ultimately all things will crumble, decay and cease to be. Countless trillions of years from now there will be nothing save for unimaginably sparsely scattered sub-atomic particles slowly winding down to the ultimate heat death of all things. The Vikings got it almost spookily right on that score. Perhaps I should covert to Odinism instead of my usual Onanism... I suppose that doesn't sound very hopeful. And it isn't. But not like it's gonna happen next Tuesday or owt. If us human beans last long enough there are even theoretical possibilities that mean we could continue living even when it's all a bit empty and more than a tad bit nippy. For every problem there is a solution. And we make those solutions cos there's nothing and nobody else around to do it for us. To slightly paraphrase me auld chum Greydon: The only gods up here in this bitch are us. We are as close to divine as it gets and hopefully one day we'll all finally grow up and realise the fact and start to live up to it more.

Fairness is a human construct. Nature is not fair. Life is not fair. But we can do our best to create the fairness we wish existed without us having to bother ourselves. Relying on a non-existant sky daddy to make with the fairnesses is not only pointless but actively harmful. It makes life far more unfair than it has any business being. Delegation only works when there is something or someone to be delegated to. As there isn't we do our brothers and sisters a great disservice when we could - and should - be looking after each other in a universe that gives nary a shit about anything either way.

Nothing turned me to atheism. We are all born atheists. Some of us get sidetracked and end up believing all kindsa weird shit. Others manage to retain our natural state. And thank... god... heavens... And thankfully I am in the latter situation. Maybe that will change one day. But probably not.