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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

EADD Theology Megathread - Book II - Exodus

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Fecking Henry... I've actually got online. Busy server won't stop tonights castigation :X

PTCH said:
All of your "evidence" comes from one book... it's akin to someone reading a Daily Mail article on how evil drugs are, and believing every word regardless. Try and explain it's BS and they won't accept it. Total ignorance.

PTCH, My understanding is that...

There are many scholars, with their own opinions on the Bible. There are some strong atheists with really good arguments, there is atheists with not so strong arguments. There is Christians with very thoughtful answers, and then Christians with not-so good answers. The subject becomes very complicated and a lot must be considered.

Which scholars got it right, is something neither me, nor you, nor Rickolasnice are really qualified to answer.

Naturally, Ricko looks at what the top Atheist scholars have to say... and presents a good argument.

My task now, is to rip off the answers from all the decent Christian scholars by rummaging google.

He'll favour the atheist perception, i'll favour the Christian one. And the discussion becomes inevitably circular.

But you have decided Ricko's argument is correct without even sparing a thought as to what a Christian response is. You said in another thread that I was a "proven idiot" without letting me respond. That's why I call you blind. You just assume whatever an atheist writes is correct, when in actual fact the concerning issues lie much further and require a considerable amount of investigation.
 
before the server busy messages start again:

it doesn't take qualifications to see that religion, especially organised religion, is bunk. it doesn't take qualifications to understand the scientific process and to see how god is no answer to anything. it doesn't take qualifications to realise that there is no reason to put one's faith in the word of the bible. or any other religious text.


there are difficult questions, but god is not an answer to them. god is a cop out.
 
But just because we put faith in 'things that make sense', basically science; it is often revised and updated and disproven.

No one agrees physicswise on what really happened before the big bang. They're still arguing about that massively, so while you can argue over the intricacies of each Religious text, agreeing that Religions and their views about 'God' being bunk, you can't really disprove God, and he's just as viable in this context as all the other theories the physicists are openly discussing about pre big bang and what really caused it.

God may be the geezer who just loves to paint Holograms through his finger lightbeams.
 
No, I can't disprove God, but just because you can't disprove something doesn't mean it's a good idea to believe it, or that it is an answer to anything.

I don't know enough about pre-big-bang physics to comment with authority on how more sensible that is than God. But I imagine pre-big-bang physics is at least based on the same mathematical foundations as post-big-bang physics, whereas God has no rational basis.
 
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Fecking Henry... I've actually got online. Busy server won't stop tonights castigation :X



PTCH, My understanding is that...

There are many scholars, with their own opinions on the Bible. There are some strong atheists with really good arguments, there is atheists with not so strong arguments. There is Christians with very thoughtful answers, and then Christians with not-so good answers. The subject becomes very complicated and a lot must be considered.

Which scholars got it right, is something neither me, nor you, nor Rickolasnice are really qualified to answer.

Naturally, Ricko looks at what the top Atheist scholars have to say... and presents a good argument.

My task now, is to rip off the answers from all the decent Christian scholars by rummaging google.

He'll favour the atheist perception, i'll favour the Christian one. And the discussion becomes inevitably circular.

But you have decided Ricko's argument is correct without even sparing a thought as to what a Christian response is. You said in another thread that I was a "proven idiot" without letting me respond. That's why I call you blind. You just assume whatever an atheist writes is correct, when in actual fact the concerning issues lie much further and require a considerable amount of investigation.

But we're not talking "Christian scholars" vs "Atheist scholars", are we? I'm talking Christian scholars vs scientists. Scientists don't read something then ponder for centuries over what it means & come up with some vague answer, they do experiments, they produce evidence, they come up with hard facts (or as close as possible). I'll stick with that over "I think it means... be nice" while the next dude is "I think it means... BURNS THE GAYS".

Edit - To be clear, I think any interpretation of your book is bullshit. It doesn't matter if that interpretation makes you the greatest person or the worst person, it's still bullshit.
 
The information I provided isn't really open to interpretation or opinion (before I get to the the creation of Roman Catholic Church)..

Here is a list of parallels between Mark, Matthew, John and Luke:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/parallels.html

Here is a list of verses which appear in Mark AND ancient jewish scripture:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/quotes.cfm

Here is a list of parallels between Josephus and Luke:
http://www.josephus.org/ntparallels.htm

..

Read Pauls gospels, read his letters, he never mentions anything about the life of Jesus.. He doesn't even consider Jesus to be a man, let alone one that had walked the earth.

And by the way my information didn't come from one scholar, it came from many, some christian, the bible itself (as well as other early scripture) and the writing of Josephus.. But like I said the information isn't a view point that can be argued against.
 
There are many scholars, with their own opinions on the Bible. There are some strong atheists with really good arguments, there is atheists with not so strong arguments. There is Christians with very thoughtful answers, and then Christians with not-so good answers. The subject becomes very complicated and a lot must be considered.

Which scholars got it right, is something neither me, nor you, nor Rickolasnice are really qualified to answer.




before the server busy messages start again:

it doesn't take qualifications to see that religion, especially organised religion, is bunk. it doesn't take qualifications to understand the scientific process and to see how god is no answer to anything. it doesn't take qualifications to realise that there is no reason to put one's faith in the word of the bible. or any other religious text.


there are difficult questions, but god is not an answer to them. god is a cop out.

Knock, I'm referring to certain issues regarding the histocracy of the Bible, and it's spread, reality of Jesus etc. Top scholars are split on many issues and it seems us amateur's are in no position to decide who is right and wrong.

I actually agree with your actual point, though, in a completely opposing way. I believe it's possible to be aware of God, without having to be a qualified theologian.

partimecrackhead said:
But we're not talking "Christian scholars" vs "Atheist scholars", are we? I'm talking Christian scholars vs scientists. Scientists don't read something then ponder for centuries over what it means & come up with some vague answer, they do experiments, they produce evidence, they come up with hard facts (or as close as possible). I'll stick with that over "I think it means... be nice" while the next dude is "I think it means... BURNS THE GAYS".

PTCH, I think you'll find most modern Christians do not regard the Bible as a scientific journal. We look to those words to find issues of spiritual development, which can't be found in your science weekly magazines.

And hey, did you actually get that book I bought you for Christmas? if you missed the link, last time im posting it now:


NSFW:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0745963013/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=
610CYNASVVL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_SX385_SY500_CR,0,0,385,500_SH20_OU02_.jpg

2ugdrvk.jpg



Booksie time for you. Whilst, me and Rickolasnice are going to entertain you all and bring this thread to new heights by collating, scrutinizing and presenting work from top atheist and Christian scholars from around the world. NYE is over so let me recover, (1 week) and my full response will be up.
 
PTCH, I think you'll find most modern Christians do not regard the Bible as a scientific journal. We look to those words to find issues of spiritual development, which can't be found in your science weekly magazines.

What is a spirit? Why do you think a "spirit" exists? What does it mean to develop it?

What you call "spirit" I think I call "consciousness". I'm actually not convinced it's possible to explain it scientifically, but that doesn't mean that the only other alternative is to assume the existence of the supernatural. I just don't think all aspects of nature are necessarily comprehensible by sentient beings. Maybe at some far off future point of evolution where we've mutated into cyber-beings of radiation it will all become clear. Maybe not though. Doesn't matter, the fact of consciousness is not evidence for a spirit, or a god.
 
What is a spirit? Why do you think a "spirit" exists? What does it mean to develop it?

What you call "spirit" I think I call "consciousness". I'm actually not convinced it's possible to explain it scientifically, but that doesn't mean that the only other alternative is to assume the existence of the supernatural. I just don't think all aspects of nature are necessarily comprehensible by sentient beings. Maybe at some far off future point of evolution where we've mutated into cyber-beings of radiation it will all become clear. Maybe not though. Doesn't matter, the fact of consciousness is not evidence for a spirit, or a god.

I can't stand the guy. But... *Sigh* Russell brand explained this one far better than I can

 
Well, in a sense I agree with some of what Brand says but I don't see it as spirituality.

One thing I don't agree with is when he says we're at the "apex of evolution". History is not finished. If we don't destroy ourselves, if we move our dominant social relations beyond the current master/worker relations into something which will allow us to realise our full potential as human beings then I think we're likely to evolve and become active in our own evolution in ways that are probably unimaginable to us now.

I don't agree with his "dead animal" idea, we are living animals, highly evolved living animals with unique capabilities, but those capabilities are animal capabilities. Human animal capabilities.

He talks about "invisible energies between us" and that we are "all connected". I agree, sound and smell are invisible and we are connected by those. We are connected through all forms of communication, these are social bonds, and in a sense consciousness is something that can transcend the individual human being into social consciousness, given sufficiently coherent communication and compassionate, co-operative, communalist... communist... attitudes and relations. But I don't think these things are "invisible energies", they are the social functions which human beings engage in when they come together in co-operative groups.

Social consciousness and transcending the individual is not something that belongs to religion, it belongs to socialism! And socialism embraces science and reason, whereas religion rejects them. Which is where religion goes all a bit weird.
 
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Brand is making a differentiation between the world we live in and the cells we inhibit, (Which is illusionary, imperfect or "dead") and that of our true selves (Which is beautiful, perfect). Recognising the true self, and those properties which owe nothing to the physical calibration of the evolved brain then is the task, and a potential that lies within all of us. Recognising soul mates, soul groups and spiritual energy between people is also something to consider.

I could talk you through a process of finding the soul which will involve raw natural foods, natural environment, yoga practice and meditation... but, knowing you and your inclinations, I suggest making it easier by cheating and using lot's of psychedelic drugs,

In the words of Bodda in the P&S forum

Bodda in P&S said:
I am lucky to have found my soul mate too.

I see a soul as what is left when you are dead or through the use of selected chemicals what can be released & journey out into "the other side"
I was never 100% sure if we had a soul untill I had an experience that totally changed my life & view point on this subject.
Anyone that has done a long run on dissociative chemicals & doesn't believe we have a soul is crazy

If a dirty chav who's got banned twice from the forum can do it, it gives us all a little ray of hope.








And completely off topic from Bodda:

Bodda said:
"Sexy chain!.... yeeeeah!"
 
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Yeah ok ok, Bodda's word while off his head on drugs... probably wasn't the best empirical source of evidence for the soul, universe and everything.

i'll let you have that one.
 
Rickolasnice said:
That video (which you blatantly didn't even bother watching) does make a lot of theories based on possibilities with not much evidence.. So don't even bother watching it..

I put it to you that 3 of the 4 gospels were rip off's of the first, that the first was written using Jewish scripture (or the ye olde testament) and that the original was never meant to be taken literally, it was meant to read as an allegorical fiction.

OK.

Luke is not written as an eye-witness account, so it makes sense it wasn't the first.

Mark, Matthew and Luke are all pretty the same stories, jumbled up with some small additions depending on the agenda of the author. The gospels of John also contains the same events but his writings are a lot more intelligent and eloquent. It is clear that Johns gospels were written after all 3 of the others.

Mark is the shortest but more importantly it contains nothing of the virgin birth. This is obviously not a part of the story that someone is going to miss out. It's generally accepted among New Testament scholars that Mark's is the original. From wiki: "Such observations have been taken by most scholars as a strong clue to the literary relationship among the synoptics and Mark's special place in that relationship.[11] The hypothesis favored by most experts is Marcan priority, that Mark was composed first and that Matthew and Luke each used Mark and incorporated most of it, with adaptations, into their own gospels."

So Mark was the original text. All others used Marks to write their own.

Matthew, Luke and John are all written in opposition of each other. They build upon Marks writings but introduce theological differences and enhancements they wish to add depending on their agenda. Matthews contribution is the forcefully cramming in "prophecy fulfilments" while Luke seemed to be trying to make the story friendlier for nearby nations (by relating the story of Jesus to Palestinian and roman history as well as contemporaneous churches.. he was basically trying to gain followers and / or make christianity seem more legit / less threatening. John's agenda seems to be giving a ..!.. to the Jews.. Always portraying them negatively, referring to them as 'the Jews', filling his works with stories of miracles and signs and then at the end saying after all of that, they still didn't believe he was the messiah. We'll come to Marks agenda at the end

Now..

Almost every detail of Jesus comes straight from the Old Testament in 3 types of ways; explicitly referencing hebrew scripture, using hebrew scriptures for underlying theme and quoting or paraphrasing hebrew scripture without indicating that they had..

Type 1 example:


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John 12:
12 The next day the great crowd that had come to the festival heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem. 13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, shouting,

‘Hosanna!
Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord—
the King of Israel!’
14 Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it; as it is written:

15 ‘Do not be afraid, daughter of Zion.
Look, your king is coming,
sitting on a donkey’s colt!’
16 His disciples did not understand these things at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things had been written of him and had been done to him.

This passage in John refers to Zechariah 9, which discusses the judgment of the enemies of Israel and the coming of a warrior who will lead the Israelites against their enemies:

Zechariah 9:
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion!
Shout aloud, O daughter Jerusalem!
Lo, your king comes to you;
triumphant and victorious is he,
humble and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
and the warhorse from Jerusalem;
and the battle-bow shall be cut off,
and he shall command peace to the nations;
his dominion shall be from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth.



Type 2: Isaiah 13 is basically the underlying theme of Jesus' life


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Isaiah 53:
Who has believed what we have heard?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by others;
a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity;
and as one from whom others hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him of no account.

Surely he has borne our infirmities
and carried our diseases;
yet we accounted him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the punishment that made us whole,
and by his bruises we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have all turned to our own way,
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By a perversion of justice he was taken away.
Who could have imagined his future?
For he was cut off from the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people.
They made his grave with the wicked
and his tomb with the rich,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him with pain.
When you make his life an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, and shall prolong his days;
through him the will of the Lord shall prosper.
Out of his anguish he shall see light;
he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge.
The righteous one, my servant, shall make many righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will allot him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out himself to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.



Type 3:Read these passages from the Old Testament in this order.. Notice anything?


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Isaiah 50:
6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
Amos 2:
11 I also raised up prophets from among your sons and Nazirites from among your young men. Is this not true, people of Israel?' declares the LORD. 12 'But you made the Nazirites drink wine and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.

Psalm 22:
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
...
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
...
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

Psalm 69:
Insults have broken my heart, so that I am in despair. I looked for pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Amos 8:
8 "Will not the land tremble for this, and all who live in it mourn? ... 9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Ezekiel 37:
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "



And then there are loads of one for word (or very close to) copies from the OT to the New.. here are a few:



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Matthew 26:20: "Even the friend whom I trusted, who ate at my table, exults in my misfortune."
Psalm 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Matthew 26:55 "...he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. "
Isaiah 53:7-87 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Matthew 9:12 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings."
Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.



There are fuckin loads.. but seeing as you keep telling me to read the bible I'm sure you must have.. Did you notice the others?

Before you say: "Yeah that's because Jesus was fulfilling prophecies" stop. And think. Most of the parallels between Jesus and the OT aren't prophecies.. And even if you managed to perform your grade A mental gymnastics to believe that, how do you explain the prophecy that was never told?

The virgin birth.


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Matthew 1:22 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"—which means, "God with us."

Isaiah 7:14 minstranslation "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The correct translation of Isaiah 7:14 reads: "Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son" ..



You should get yourself one of these bad boys.. Seems the greek translation of the hebrew scripture wasn't very accurate.

So why did Mark write the gospels in the first place?

The gospels of Mark were written as a work of fiction, the stories within are metaphorical. Jesus is the authors personification of his idea of God in a metaphorical sense, not a literal sense. Why do i say these terrible things? Writings had different structures depending on what they are, as they do now - compare a news article to a work of fiction to a text book, or even writing formally or unformally, you follow?

The gospel of Mark (or indeed, any of them) are written in such a way that you would write a fictional story. It is written in a narrative fashion and makes no claim to be a historical account. Historical works had a table of contents, were written formally and the writer identified themselves, You can see this if you read some texts like The War or the Jews by my man Josephus Flavius, History of Rome by Livy (30 BCE), The Histories by Tacticus (109CE).. Mark develops characters and has a plot, with scenes, suspense, and a climax.. Historical facts don't work like that.

The crucifixion happening on passover only makes sense if looked at as if a metaphor. The Sanhedrin had a set of very strict rules which include;No criminal session was allowed at night. No Sanhedrin trial could be heard at any place other than the Temple precincts. No capital crime could be tried in a one-day sitting and no criminal trial could be held on the eve of a Sabbath or festival. On passover, however, there would be many animal sacrifices.. I'll let my man Josephus explain:



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The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the Passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven lambs. Now these lambs are entirely burnt, besides the ewe lamb which is added to all the rest, for sins; for it is intended as a feast for the priest on every one of those days.
- Antiquity of the Jews, Josephus



Hmmm.. A lamb that is sacrificed for sins.. Wasn't Jesus referred to as a lamb, oh i dunno, 100 times throughout the bible?

So why did Christianity become so popular so quickly? Could it have been a perfectly executed ploy by the Romans to gain control of a troublesome area, or maybe they realised the power religion held over people and wanted some of the action, maybe they wanted to build an empire than would never fall, and always gain wealth.



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1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority,

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. ...... 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

This one is important:

16 Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it seems advisable for me to go also, they will accompany me.

And who is it that accompanied him?

2 Corinthians 16
Thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you. 17 For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative.

lol.. Fuckin Titus comes to collect the collection money.. You know who Titus was, right? Get the New Testament and the writings of Titus' campaign around Judea and put them next to each other. In the same order, in the same places, Jesus will be performing an exorcism while Titus is spearing the Jews who were forced into the sea. The guy was responsible for the burning of the great temple of Jerusalem. He slaughtered many a pesky Jew. Looky at what they built in celebration of their victory:



That pic is part of the Titus Arch and it clearly depicts the Romans carrying stolen Jewish goods, but in particular the Menorah.. Wonder where that is now.. hmmmmm..

Not only that but Jesus "prophesied" the event happening. Luke (maybe Matthew, too) had also plagiarised a lot of Josephus' work, but replacing the slaughtering of Jewish militias by Titus and his army into quaint little stories about a friendly jew performing miracles.

Examples?
http://www.josephus.org/ntparallels.htm

Or there are some less obvious ones which are only noticeable as they run in the same order:
http://altbibleschol.freehomepage.co...Parallels.html

The parallels between Josephus' work and things found in the bible suggest that not only is the bible a retelling of events from roman conquests into jesus' life but that everything "known" about Jesus' life can't be true.. as Josephus' War of the Jews was written waay after Jesus was dead.. but around the same time as the gospels of Mark.. This also explains why Jesus' prophecies came true (all within the 40 year period between the time of Jesus and the gospels of Mark and events carried out by Titus as documented by Josephus.

So.. we've got..

Parallels between New Testament and War of the Jews (or Titus' campaign).
The Roman Catholic church being what it is.
The teachings of Paul (and Jesus) concerning obeying emperors, and preaching against disobedience (a lot), etc.. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" and all that.
The introductory of the collection plate by Paul (as well as a few other catholic ideas i noticed while reading his books this morning)
Titus personally collecting the money.
The seemingly desperate agenda to converting Jews.
"Prophecies" coming true that were never told.
The anti-Semitic undertone of parts of the bible.
There are letters from Paul to Titus.. very "obey your emperor" and lovey dovey.. Titus, at this point, i believe was in the Roman consul..
There's more my brains just gone dead.




So we have 3 gospels all copying one but adding their own twist on things but all in the end the original story of Jesus was nothing more than an allegorical fiction using Jewish scripture for inspiration and plagerism.

So raas, based on the evidence presented, I bid to you;

Jesus never existed.

Please, tell me why or how I'm wrong.. or are the facts i've presented a biased interpretation fuelled by a deep seeded hate for religion?

You're a cunt, Rickolasnice. You're a cunt.

Not just for making me actually read all that, but making me have to respond to it all also.

Next time you try this one, I volunteer JESS to give you a detailed response
 
-----As promised, a belated response to Rickolasnice's epic, monster post---------

Due to the size of the post (Hit "quote", and with all that NSFW text displayed it's truly monstrous) I could never go into detail over every single point raised, however I have addressed what I felt to be the crux of your argument.

You must certainly be commended for effort. Post had a lot of detail and thought.

Though, I resent this:

Rickolasnice said:
.. And even if you managed to perform your grade A mental gymnastics to believe that, how do you explain the prophecy that was never told?

You've questioned my religion in the past, and I've given you structured responses based on my own thought and understanding. To have my opinions dismissed as "mental gymnastics" just shows how impossible it is to win. It's hard to muster enthusiasm to respond sometimes, when I know you'll dismiss every answer coming from a Christian and will not allow yourself to assimilate the thought within it.

Anyway, without ranting about biased perceptions and all that again, I have given you a critical response to your post.



___________________



Ricko,

Your theory of Jesus never existing, and the gospels being fictionally created by the government to control people is nothing more than speculation. After reading your post, fully, there is no "proof" whatsoever of these claims, it's all hypothetical. With a bit of investigation, the claims can be very easily answered and therefore pose no threat to the authenticity of the religion, or to discredit it any way.

Using my own understanding of the religion, and collaborating that with facts and responses from other Christian sources I hope to convincingly dismiss your claim.

Also your speculation is further discredited as it falls for some very painful misrepresentation of basic scripture.

Ricko said:
The teachings of Paul (and Jesus) concerning obeying emperors, and preaching against disobedience (a lot), etc.. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" and all that.

In this verse, where Jesus is saying "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" (Mark 12:17) he's very clearly opposing ceaser, by differentiating what is ceasers (money, material) and what is God (spiritual) and the verse is persuading people to dissociate from ceaser and come to God.

__________________




ricko said:
Mark is the shortest but more importantly it contains nothing of the virgin birth. This is obviously not a part of the story that someone is going to miss out. It's generally accepted among New Testament scholars that Mark's is the original.

ricko said:
Before you say: "Yeah that's because Jesus was fulfilling prophecies" stop. And think. Most of the parallels between Jesus and the OT aren't prophecies.. And even if you managed to perform your grade A mental gymnastics to believe that, how do you explain the prophecy that was never told?

The virgin birth.

There is good evidence that both Luke and Matthew may have used Mark's gospel as a source (or a common corpus of material which preceded Mark), as well as other oral or written sources.

However, despite all 4 gospels having an objective of verifying the historical existence of Jesus, their aims differentiate. They are not intended to be 4 composite, precise, stories. They have different aims, and selectively include what text is necessary to realise these aims. What is covered in Matthew, for instance, may have been deliberately left out of Luke if it does not suit it's purpose.

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4219709/k.1527/Why_Does_Marks_Gospel_Omit_the_Resurrection_and_the_Virgin_Birth.htm
The four gospels are eyewitness portraits of the life and events of Jesus Christ. They do, however, reveal somewhat different purposes with respect to emphasis. The Gospel of Matthew without doubt was intended for the Jewish community and a primary focus on Jesus as the Messiah who historically fulfilled the prophetic predictions and promises mentioned throughout the Old Testament Scriptures.

The Gospel of Luke portrays Christ as the "Son of Man," that is, with an emphasis on the humanity of Christ, and it was written primarily to the Gentile world.

The Gospel of John has yet a different focus. John clearly identified that his primary purpose was to prove that Jesus was God Himself. When John wrote his gospel near the end of the first century, Gnostics and other sects were beginning to question the divine nature of Christ, and John's major intent in his Gospel was to answer these critics.

The Gospel of Mark was written to demonstrate Christ as the Servant: "For the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). The Nativity accounts in Matthew and Luke make sense, because they would be important to establish both Messianic and human lineage. It does not, however, suit Mark's purpose, as the lineage of a "slave" or a "servant" is unimportant. This answers your question about why one would not expect Mark to mention the virgin birth in his gospel. It did not suit his purpose.


rick said:
The letters from the apostle Paul don't even mention anything about Jesus' life and it can be said that Paul didn't consider Christ to be a literal man, there are loads of texts that suggest this.. in fact.. most of his stories suggest this. Jesus spoke through him, Paul was waiting for Jesus (with no mention of him coming back), in fact.. he never mentions Jesus ever being a man on earth and his writing would have only been written 15 years after his death.

Paul had never met Jesus (when he was alive, in body) so therefore it makes sense that the story of Jesus becomes an aim of the 4 gospels and not of Paul's epistles.

Pauls epistles were written with an aim of encouraging the local churches to remain in obedience to the Gospel message found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.


http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/did-paul-see-the-risen-christ-during-the-damascus-road-incident
There’s no indication from Scripture that Paul and Jesus ever met before the Damascus Road incident (which was after Jesus's death). And Acts 9:4-7 doesn’t specify whether the Lord’s encounter with Paul was physical or not. It only says Paul saw a bright light and heard a voice. The men with him heard a loud sound but didn’t see anything. In subsequent re-tellings of the encounter Paul never indicated that He had actually seen Jesus at that time

rick said:
The gospels of Mark were written as a work of fiction, the stories within are metaphorical. Jesus is the authors personification of his idea of God in a metaphorical sense, not a literal sense. Why do i say these terrible things? Writings had different structures depending on what they are, as they do now - compare a news article to a work of fiction to a text book, or even writing formally or unformally, you follow?

The gospel of Mark (or indeed, any of them) are written in such a way that you would write a fictional story. It is written in a narrative fashion and makes no claim to be a historical account. Historical works had a table of contents, were written formally and the writer identified themselves,

I find this bizarre. The gospels have always claimed to be historical works. This is why there is 4 of them, as they attest to each other. That is the aim, to verify the story of Jesus. If it was fictional, there would be no need for 4 additional stories holding so many similarities.


ricko said:
So why did Christianity become so popular so quickly? Could it have been a perfectly executed ploy by the Romans to gain control of a troublesome area, or maybe they realised the power religion held over people and wanted some of the action, maybe they wanted to build an empire than would never fall, and always gain wealth.



1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority,

etc etc

In regard to your hypothesis that the Bible is worded to make people serve the government, again this is only a speculative interpretation and nothing "concrete". These verses are generally interpreted to inspire obedience and dissociation of rebellious attitude. Expected really, of a book which aim is to teach of morals. "The Good Book".

It also holds many verses of defying authority for the name of God. particularly Jesus, who was always getting in trouble with the law (defying the Sabbath, ended up being put to death)

So to suggest the book is written to to make people obedient to the government, doesn't make any sense at all, when considering all verses.

rick said:
So why did Christianity become so popular so quickly? Could it have been a perfectly executed ploy by the Romans to gain control of a troublesome area, or maybe they realised the power religion held over people and wanted some of the action, maybe they wanted to build an empire than would never fall, and always gain wealth

Or maybe the religion and it's teachings actually hold some truth, and have inspired many people - humble and prominant - to spread the word so that the religion is still prominent 2,000 years later? You left that possibility out. Your interpretation suits your opposition to Christianity, but could not be considered in any way proof.
 
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It's unlikely people will believe my book, so what I'll do is write 4 books then use the other 3 to prove whichever one is being questioned...

Brilliant.


Just as a total aside, how do you feel about the fact the stuff you quote from the bible obviously isn't actually what was originally written? What are your thoughts on King James? Do you accept that the bible has been modified numerous times to better fit different agendas? Which is the true bible in your opinion?
 
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