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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

EADD - Conspiracy Megathread - MONEY+POWER+SICKNESS=

Where the hell are the Tories or UKIP not standing?

Generally, Northern Ireland aka the six counties. Though the Tories have stood there in the past they get roughly less than 1% of the vote. The Ulster Unionists being seen as a natural ally/alternative. Not sure who the fuck is going to vote UKIP in NI so I doubt they'll waste money standing there. Oops, just checked and UKIP are indeed standing in the six counties. Good luck with that.
 
Generally, Northern Ireland aka the six counties. Though the Tories have stood there in the past they get roughly less than 1% of the vote. The Ulster Unionists being seen as a natural ally/alternative. Not sure who the fuck is going to vote UKIP in NI so I doubt they'll waste money standing there. Oops, just checked and UKIP are indeed standing in the six counties. Good luck with that.

I've seen a few UKIP election messages in people's windows around town in the past few months. All in very predictable areas.
 
For fuck sake. Tell me which parties are standing in YOUR constituency, and I'll tell you what to do.

This is not a complicated issue.

Where the hell are the Tories or UKIP not standing?

How about I decide for myself? :)

Just because you recently got all SNP on us doesn't mean you have a duty to instruct people south of the border on how to vote. ;)
 
Answer those questions before you start thinking about how they 'represent you', cos the chances are that even though they appeal to your nature, they ain't gonna be politically representing you anytime soon.

These type of responses never sit well with me and is precisely why I don't believe in the political system in general. You're saying there's no point in voting for what you believe in so should vote "tactically" for the least shitty pile of shit offered up in your area. And people wonder why voter turnout is so low :\

"I'm going to send everyone a message by not voting and staying home dressed up like a clown!" - Fry - Futurama

I <3 Futurama but this is another example of deliberately missing the point to make a perfectly valid and sensible position appear ludicrous. The relevant part is refusing to take part in a system so fundamentally flawed it needs to be put out of its misery (or rather turfed out from it's far, far too comfortable position of having deeply vested interests in keeping voter turnout as low as possible and voter apathy as high as possible).

Every vote cast is a vote wasted in my opinion. Unless the person voting truly believes in the candidate, party, policy (taking into account these are mostly never likely to actually happen - more a general promise to do "something like that if you're lucky, maybe the complete opposite - kinda pot luck really") and overall belief in the system being one that functions as is desirable to that voter. I strongly suspect few or none of these things apply to the majority of voters cos if they do then we really are in trouble.

Unfortunately, a truly desirable political landscape requires engagement. Means having to put some effort and energy into making decisions and thinking about such decisions. Can anybody think of a politician worth a second thought? Me neither.

Or, far more concisely...

Which is exactly what 60% of those who voted Lib Dem last time, who you were earlier, rightfully, slagging off, thought they were doing.

Burn it down.

This.
 
These type of responses never sit well with me and is precisely why I don't believe in the political system in general. You're saying there's no point in voting for what you believe in so should vote "tactically" for the least shitty pile of shit offered up in your area. And people wonder why voter turnout is so low :\

Exactly because that's the depressing truth about FPTP. Pragmatism is the best option you've got. That or idealist lefties / 'progressives' / centrists inadvertently voting in the most right-wing coalition in history. Something which wouldn't have happened if they'd (excuse the expression) taken out the nose peg on polling day.

I've voted Socialist Labour and several other fringe parties, and seen my vote pissed down the drain. If you want to encourage that, then go ahead.

Sometimes, it's better the Devil you know, and if you wanna organise, organise from there. But good luck.
 
No conspiracy needed (about the 11/9 thing). The USA really are capable of pissing people off enough to persuade them to hijack a bunch of planes and crash them into buildings. G. W. Bush most probably got a hard-on when he was presented with the ultimatum, "do this OR ELSE!!!1!" All he had to do was default on the demand, and pretend there was no ultimatum; so the payback would look like an unprovoked attack a.o.t. a provoked one. Cue a whole bunch of people ready to sacrifice essential liberty to obtain an illusion of temporary security -- and a government more than ready to oblige.
 
In theory, yes.

Just like a game of football is supposed to be about scoring goals and not defending for 90 minutes. Sometimes, though, that's the only way to scrape an acceptable result.

Nobody wants to watch those games, but sometimes pragmatism is the only solution. Especially the way our electoral system works.

Good analogy and I get yer point. However, I'll tell you why I don't vote... I have voted exactly once in my life. It was 1983 and i'd just turned 18. I voted purely because I could. However, I had absolutely no idea who to vote for so I voted conservative, simply because that's who my parents always voted for. Therefore, I am partly responsible for the evil that was Thatcher gaining a second term. To paraphrase Bob Calvert, 'I helped focus the magnifying glass which brought the downfall of Icarus'. When I realised my glaring error through the subsequent brutal treatment of the miners and the new age travellers and the privatisation of national industries, I vowed never again to subject the country to the consequences of my ignorance...
 
We have a selection criteria for all our other education tiers. The medical schools choose those members who they belief are best fit to become doctors. Ditto engineering schools. Unless you have a good grasp of mathematics no one is allowing you to build the next bridge. Why not have a school for leaders selected by experts in the field of leading...

[jumping back a bit to answer you (been away from pc)] Of course different professions have qualifications for highly skilled activities. I just don't buy the argument that the nebulous generalised 'skill' of 'leadership' or 'management' are in the same category - leadership is a personal/social quality that people bring at any level of an organisation. I've seen how the increase of management culture in public services has wrecked them and made them less efficient - i've seen the sort of people that occupy management positions (leadershiop doesn't come into it), with wages twice and more of what the people they're managing get, for an easier job - the culture that says people can have generalised management skills without ever having experience of the job of the people they're managing do; their special skills seeming to consist of ability to sack people without being troubled by empathy or solidarity, for the good of the company (ie shareholder profits).

This management culture is a bourgeois microcosm of elite 'leadership' or centralised political control (does saying bourgeois make me bourgeois?); this in turn is a residue of feudal power structures - just because feudalism did some impressive things (on the backs of the all their subjects), doesn't mean society can't evolve and improve how it distributes its resources. I believe in historical progress through periodical revolutions (eg we wouldn't have the freedom we have now but for the british and then french revolutions).

When power is centralised and wealth is inequally distributed, the politics will follow the money - when 'leaders' are picked from a small elite pool of well off people, they will naturally, even unconsciously, gravitate towards politics that suit or juistify their own position; laws will tend to favour people of the same class as them. This is the self-justificatory nature of all politics imv: people tend towards views that say people like them are OK, and other people aren't - this is the same for poor people - given complete information and a choice of which laws or taxes to enact they will choose ones that benefit them more (like redistribution). But there are many more poor people, so their views should rightly prevail according to majority rules - the control of power and information that the elite enjoys needs to be constantly maintained to stop enough of the poor people realising these basic facts, joining together and applying democracy directly. ('we are many they are few' and all that)

I am not talking politics here either, politicians are only concerned with popularity and appeasing the masses. Leadership, especially of a nation or an entire society requires strong decisions that, while not perfect, are required for society to excel forward.

This fairy tale of strong decisions by a leader is often woven around the carrying out of actions that most people would obviously be against if they knew the truth - this sort of 'leader', shepherding the unfortunate ignorant masses according to their superior understanding is exactly what democracy should guard against imo - this vanguardist ideology of self-elected masters herding the massses is the same as the neoconservatism of Leo Strauss (or even ayn rand (or lenin for that matter)) - not an ideology i'd be happy to associate with.

A common example given (to chuck in another strawman) is the leadership of churchill, but should it matter that churchill didn't care a jot for the actual poor people that make up the empire he was trying to save? His beef with hitler was that he didn't want the british empire to be bested - if it wasn't for that they'd have got on famously (they could have swapped indian/jewish genocide notes, or discussed churchill's pioneering eugenics bill from 1908 )

Food, shelter, health and education for all is a pretty basic building block for a happy society. Rather than out sourcing humanities science and research it makes sense to fund and direct it internally. Of course human nature and it's associated pride and greed are more of a hurdle than voter apathy in the current system.

That's exactly the point of socialism, because without it that stuff would never have happened for more than a few.

Sorry for the essay (i don't half talk a load of bollocks). Tl;dr - four legs good, two legs bad ;)
 
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Sometimes, it's better the Devil you know, and if you wanna organise, organise from there. But good luck.

I know what you're saying - especially in regards to the way we ended up with the current coalition... but it was attempts at voting tactically that caused that very situation, no? Essentially you appear to be saying that anybody who is not a Tory should vote Labour cos they are the only other party big enough to have a hope of winning an election outright other than the Tories. This is precisely the message that both Tories and Labout strategists have been desperately force-feeding us with for the last few decades hoping that if they say it often enough it will be taken in osmotically by the portion of the populace who have enough interest (and even belief) in politics that they wish to "do their bit" but who are handily also either deafeatist enough, cynical enough, or even just bog-standard dense enough to do precisely what the system is set up to do - ensure that there is never any real choice by setting up false and meaningless dichotomies.

It's almost as though every British citizen had been put in the stocks in front of a crank handle which worked (via a suitably whimsical Heath Robinson device) the Wheel of Boots towards the rear of the apparatus and indeed the rear of each individual person of voting age. At first a man wearing a rosette of one or more arbitrarily selected colours works the crank handle for you. He smiles and nods and makes sounds of agreement and sounds of disapproval - not in response to anything but everybody likes to hear the right noises whilst few seem to care much whether they are anything other than simply noises.

As this is the first stage of voter training day the arse-kicking received via the medium of the bland smiling man who makes noises and works the arse-kicking machine for you is really rather a vigorous one. Bordering on sadistic - it's hard not to notice the throbbing erection the fine MP chap is now stroking with his spare hand. Which MP chap was it now... can never remember his name but he definitely wore a puce and beige rosette... or was it a cyan and magnolia one? Never mind, they all seemed to look surprisingly similar for apparently differering things, and as they all make the same noises anyway if you spend too much time listening to them I suppose it really doesn't matter that much.

Seems a nice chap (or a complete twat - really makes no difference at all) and he's definitely working on a hard issue there which is precisely what MPs are just chomping at the bit to work on all the time. Cos they do work so very hard... or they do fuck all and rinse the taxpayer for expenses... or they fight noble causes... or sell-out their noble causes for getting a bigger name badge on their desk than the fella across the hall... makes no difference whether good, bad or indifferent cos the end result is always gonna be the same. The mealy-mouthed wanker who has been taking such great pleasure in relentlessly kicking your arse is going to go need take a break to get a firmer grasp of the underlying matter in hand so could you just keep turning the crank handle whilst he's away. Cos you see if you don't then you have just raised the unemployment figures and are now a benefits scrounger, and you encourage immgrants to come and steal the job that was quite literally handed to you but refused to take so will have to have your benefits sanctioned, and you are a burden and a drain on the NHS because you are clearly a malingering self-harmer.

Yes, that is a ridiculously over-egged anal(*titters*)ogy... or more of a mighty messy metaphore. Either way, the point (and there really is one in and amongst all the unnecessary words - honest there is) is still a valid one I'd say. Just keep cranking the handle and surely the nice MP chap will return all sated and post-coital to free you from the non-existant bonds that tie so many to the Perpetual Motion Self-Arse-Kicking Machine. Like all perpetual motion machines there is one tiny flaw that prevents it from actually being perpetual but unless you spot it and make a minor adjustment to its inner-workings you may as well continue to use ridiculous, pointless and utterly meaningless existing machinery to continually boot your own arse with. After all, it's better than letting the Tories do it.

BSG2
 
I don't think tactical voting was behind the massive Lab-Lib swing. That wouldn't be very tactical, would it? Unless the intended tactic was to hand the election to the Tories, or bank on a Lib/Lab coalition that was never on the cards anyway.

Maybe tactical voting played a part in a few seats, but it was mostly due to the kind of mass optimism / stupidity which occasionally grips the British public. Oh, and the fucking Guardian.

And yes, I'm saying that anybody who disagrees with Tory policies should vote for the strongest contender when it comes to keeping them out. Unfortunately, in most constituencies, ironically, this is Labour. That's reality.

Reality really sucks, doesn't it?
 
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Shambles: Agreed. Though i think that even the machinery of power as it is could be taken over and made to work more for the people way short of actual revolution. Eg a chance to vote in a social democratic party (not the fake hollande/milliband version) would be nice. It's just a sign of the dominance of the neoliberal takeover (and its control of the media) that social democracy is considered and treated as far left as trotskyism used to be. (this is also contempt for democracy considering most people prefer social democratic policies when polled)

For some real conspiracy stuff, read Robin Ramsay's Clandestine Caucus to find out about the establishment/elite pulled together and threw resources at discrediting and coopting the left over the decades - the left has never had a fair democratic fight when up against all that wealth and influence. (it's a bit dry and 'boring' compared to david icke (like reality))
 
Reality really sucks, doesn't it?

Bits of it do, other bits are kinda peachy. Labour are definitely at the sucky end of the scale. Tories wearing red ties. Which shade of shit would you like spread thickly on your shit sandwich today, sir? Pick the "strongest" one by all means but I would personally recommend opting for the nice bit of strawberry jam instead. No it isn't on the menu. But as we all write the menu we wish to choose from... No? Fair Nuff, the shit with auburn arse pubes sticking out it is then. Enjoy your meal, have a shitty day and don't forget to cast another crucial vote tomorrow - there's a rumour I just started halfway through this sentence that tomorrow's shit may vary in texture slightly from today's 8o
 
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