First off, thank you for your answer!
And second off, I have taken much of drugs (phenibut, lyrica, tramadol, benzos) tonight and they makes me kind of emotional. So hope you don't be too judgemental against me now when I'm speaking from my heart. I appreciate your answer very much and it makes me feel good also because I've been thinking lately that my posts here don't seem to get much of replies compared to many others. I'm wondering if my language is so bad that its hard to find out what I'm trying to say (english isn't my native language anyway)? So now this really feels good when you answered and tried to help me. Altough I'm not sure if they offer me excatly what I'm looking for and so my replies aren't in line with you. I try to be honest with you and my apologies if that insults you it isn't my purpose.
There are all sorts of relaxing herbs and drugs. Since these are all likely to be less harmful than DXM I think it's ok for me to list some:
- kava
Kava I've used many times. It feels someway similar to me with Lyrica wich I use anyway. If I remember correctly its mechanism of action is also partially similar like blocking voltage gated calsium channels? Also I've might felt during this benzo withdrawal it gives me excacerbated rebound effect (maybe because its short duration of action on gaba receptors?) for next day. I'm not sure though and have to test again. Anyway if I want benefits from that I'm afraid I might have to use it continously and propably very big doses. Also because I use Lyrica I don't see I could benefit much of it at this point. Same series with kava but even more similar with Lyrica (effects on GAD entsyme) is in my experience Gotu kola. I use it and could even sometimes replace Lyrica with it if I take big doses enough. But I don't feel those herbs offer much more than my current daily drugs do.
- L-lysine (amino acid supplement)
- other amino acids and neurotransmitter precursor supplements (which ones depends on what kind of effect you're looking for exactly) such as l-arginine, l-ornithine, l-theanine
L-theanine I use and yes it works but don't in the way I'm searching here. I have so much benzo tolerance and by using it (600mg) I can only little prolong my time without benzos but at this point it doesn't offer much more. Good supplement still! Amino acids I have used plenty about 10 years. Right now I have at least Arginine, Lysine, Glutamine, Glysine, Taurine, Tryptophan, DL-Phenylalanine, Tyrosine, Acetyl-l-carnitine, N-acetylcysteine and other nutrients like GABA and Inositol. Glysine and Taurine I've used during withdrawals mainly because of their anticonvulsant action when I was rapidly lowering my doses. They indeed work very well in certain situations and glycine at doses 10-15g before bed with 600mg of magnesium citrate calms down and promotes sleep even in acute phase of benzo withdrawal. They aren't still kind of substances I'm searching for. DLPA works and gives little euphoric feeling like low dose of codeine and infact its good nutrient and has helped with my depression also. N-acetylcysteine I have used during withdrawal by hoping it to prevent excitotoxicity and some studies indicate it has also anticonvulsant activity. Btw, it has also been shown to help with addictions and OCD wich I both have but latter being very very minor (especially now after starting DXM wich has cease also my panic attacks) and mainly occurs when I'm tapering benzos. So good nutrient but not relaxing. Tryptophan helps little for sleep, tyrosine does something sometimes, glutamine I'm not sure, gaba does relax little but not mentally, and also inositol. All of those effects are very subtle anyway.
I didn't know lysine would be helpful. Haven't used it during withdrawals. So what is its mechanism of action and what doses are needed?
Valerian root I have a big pack and have made tea with 10g of it. It does work but I think its affects on gaba system might be somewhat counterproductive in my situation especially because of its short duration of action. I have tried ex. zolpidem during my withdrawal to help get sleep and it has always exponentially potentiated withdrawals and caused severe symptoms few times for next day; one time I got visual and auditory hallucinations wich were scary and was panicking and fearing also I would seize [Note: those weren't zolpidem hallucinogenic properties wich I'm very familiar with]. Of course valerian isn't as strong as meds but its short duration of action like zolpidem bothers me. I have also skullcap (scutellaria lateriflora) wich might have great health benefits and I've found it to be pretty good sedative especially when combined with valerian and passion flower. All of those effects altough good aren't relaxing in a way I'm after.
- diphenhydramine (OTC antihistamine) in low doses (probably don't want to take it too often as you can get a tolerance to the sedative and calming effects and higher doses make it less sedating/calming)
It isn't OTC where I'm living. I've used hydroxyzine ED long time at evening doses of 75-100mg. Yes it is beneficial but not relaxing enough. Also would those other antihistamines be any better than hydroxyzine because isn't it that hydroxyzine is the only one that works also as 5HT2c antagonist and offers anxiolytic effects mainly because of that? I have used also doxylamine succinate and it was ok but maybe not as good as hydroxyzine for sleep. Diphenhydramine I maybe should try if I just get it somewhere.
- kratom (but don't use it too often as it can create a dependence)
Kratom might be good and I've tried to order it one time online but it went to customs. Its illegal where I'm living and hard to find so I haven't had acces to try it. Now when you reminded me I might have to try again get it somewhere.
What kind of effects I was hoping when I said I would need something to relax during this very long tour in hell I was thinking some substances that gives you lets say "deep brain massage" like benzos and opioids together. Of course I can't get excatly the same effects from anything else besides themself but the DXM has been very very close to it. So I was hoping to find something similar to DXM or benzos and opioids. When I've took DXM with Gotu kola its effects has been so relaxing I've forget my whole withdrawal. Its been maybe better than relaxing effects from benzos&opioids! Because there was also that strong stimulant component with clear vivid mind. Dreamlike meditative state with whole body relaxed without any muscle tension, every tissue in synchronization and harmony with each other, heart rate and respiratory stabilazed to healthy and relaxing level and very concentrated feeling on matters in life you are interested in maybe same kind of state as child. So basically when I'm using DXM during withdrawals I've only need gotu kola with it and I would be in my childhood heaven again taking vacation from withdrawals even though same time body is supposedly (based on my own previous experience and literature) actively withdrawing and reducing tolerance and addiction. Doses needed for those kind of state hasn't been very big; 200-300mg of DXM with grapefruit juice and 4-6 NOW brand gotu kola capsels.
I've been tolding many benefits and wonderful absence of disadvantages I've got from DXM on other threads so I won't list them again here. Now I'm hoping that by conversating and arguing we could move toward truth in this subject. My views might be of course biased and raising propably partly from my subconsciousnes trying desperately to protect my strong visio. For some of that I'm propably now blind so forgive me my narrow-mindedness and enthusiasm. Basically its just my brains attempt to keep dopamine flow constant. I try to keep myself objective and humble. But now when I'm looking on facts I've gathered from this subject and my personal experiences I'm not sure if I'm yet able to agree with you. If you have patience enough I would gladly continue this deliberation with you.
Something I've found to protect my dopamine flow:
A) Most studies find DXM to be neuroprotective not neurotoxic. Or am I wrong? Please point a study that suggests DXM has neurotoxic effects.
1. No vacuolation with big doses and prolonged use:
"Thus characteristic neuropathologic changes found with more potent NMDA receptor antagonists do not occur following single or
repeated oral administration of dextromethorphan."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17573115
2. DXM acts as a neuroprotectant:
"Given the compelling preclinical evidence for neuroprotective properties of DM, initial clinical neuroprotective findings, and clinical
demonstrations that the DM/Q combination is well tolerated, this strategy may hold promise for the treatment of various acute and
degenerative neurologic disorders."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17848867
3. Another study demonstrating neuroprotective effects:
"Although post-injury administration of DM (all doses) failed to reduce core lesion size, the maximum dose of DM (10 mg/kg) was effective
in reducing silver-stained axonal fiber degeneration in the cortical regions adjacent to the injury."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19619574
4. Neuropsychotoxic (correct me if I'm wrong but means hallucinations etc.?) and neuroprotective effects of DXM:
"These compounds may provide a novel therapeutic direction for the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases such as convulsive or
parkinsonian-like disorders."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18198471
5. DXM analogs are neuroprotective in vitro:
"These observations establish a new class of compounds related to DM which, by virtue of their efficacy to protect neurons against a
severe glutamate insult, may possess therapeutic potential as treatment modalities for a number of neurodegenerative diseases."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8592646
6. Sigma receptor agonists are neuroprotective:
"Results from preliminary experiments with the selective sigma 1 ligand (+)-pentazocine indicated that sigma-mediated neuroprotection
may involve the buffering of glutamate-induced calcium flux. Collectively, the results of these in vitro experiments demonstrate that sigma
ligands are neuroprotective and therefore deserve further exploration as potential therapeutic agents in in vivo models of CNS injury and
neurodegenerative disorders."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7728532
7. DXM might be neuroprotective by affecting voltage gated calsium channels:
"The ability to decrease Ca2+ flux through N-type (synaptosomal) and L-type (PC12) voltage-gated Ca2+ channels may therefore
contribute to the neuroprotective effects of these compounds."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0006899388914977
Question: How often substances have both neurotoxic and neuroprotective effects? If so could you provide example. I don't know.
Also I don't think ex. my kind of situation and DXM use is directly comparable or at same line to tu usual cases where people abuse DXM. I don't think this should be generalised in one direction or another. It might be benefits in ex. during benzo withdrawal are greater than harms.
I'm withdrawing from benzos and am thinking this situation now as a line with positive and negative ends. In the negative end there are severe excitotoxicity, convulsions and finally death. On the positive end there is neuroprotective state and finally coma. By reducing benzos I'm moving in line towards the negative neurotoxic end and convulsions. I could move back to positive side a) by waiting that my body adjust wich it might not do at least fast enough and I'm risking my health and sanity b) I could increase my benzo dose and move toward positive neuroprotective end and c) I could use some other substances wich inhibit glutamate and moves me away from convulsions, neurotoxicity and death. And by looking back the study results I think I could consider DXM with good reasons as a possible candidate:
"These observations establish a new class of compounds related to DM which, by virtue of their efficacy to protect neurons against a
severe glutamate insult"
"These compounds may provide a novel therapeutic direction for the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases such as convulsive or
parkinsonian-like disorders."
"Results from preliminary experiments with the selective sigma 1 ligand (+)-pentazocine indicated that sigma-mediated neuroprotection
may involve the buffering of glutamate-induced calcium flux."
Am I too closed minded and forgetting all the 'X's and 'Y's we don't know about? How much more should we know before we could trust on something? Perfectionist or sceptic wouldn't never be satisfied.
B) DXM might be very good antidepressive
1. Dextromethorphan as a potential rapid-acting antidepressant:
"Clinical trials of dextromethorphan in depressive disorders, especially treatment-resistant depression, now seem warranted."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21367535
2. An extension of hypotheses regarding rapid-acting, treatment-refractory, and conventional antidepressant activity of
dextromethorphan and dextrorphan.
(from 2012 june)
"Suggestions for clinical trials are provided for oral high-dose dextromethorphan and Nuedexta (dextromethorphan combined with quinidine
to block metabolism to dextrorphan, thereby increasing dextromethorphan plasma concentrations)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22401777
3. DXM with risperidone might benefit schizophrenics:
"Long-term Risp treatment attenuated inflammation and potentiated the neurotrophic function but also produced a certain degree of
toxicity. Risp+ DM was more beneficial and less toxic than Risp-only treatment."
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11481-012-9382-z
Question: Is it usual to start developing treatments for brain disease with substances that are neurotoxic? If so could you provide
examples because I don't know. I'm honestly asking.
Also must get back to those inactive ingredients in cough syrups. I wouldn't still think it is not nowhere near as bad as it has been suggested in this thread and elsewhere.
Sorbitol - basically harmless. Negative effects of sorbitol are mainly
secondary and could be easily prevented by good probiotic, lactic acid bacteria and fiber like psyllium. Many gastrointestinal problems start when gut bacteria is affected negatively. Ex. "Studies suggest that Lactobacillus is a safe and effective treatment for acute and infectious diarrhea." I've personal experience with gastrointestinal issues from over 10 years and treated my sorbitol induced problems with probiotics and fiber so I consider I have some knowledge about subject.
Fructose - While likely better than "Glucose-Fructose" aka "High Fructose Corn Syrup", consuming too much fructose can overwhelm the body's capacity to process it. When too much fructose enters the liver, the liver can't process it all fast enough for the body to use as sugar.
Why would fructose be better than glucose-fructose? That doesn't make sense. Humans have very limited capasity to process fructose healthy but allmost unlimited capasity for glucose (without same adverse effects than fructose). Only liver can store fructose but muscles can absorp hundreds grams of glucose. So when liver is full of fructose (about 50-100g depending person) only then it starts to be harmful and starts to fattening liver. Fructose in excess can't be moved from liver but are stored directly there but when there is excess glucose it can be stored around the body wich is not as harmful. Glucose-fructose syrup or HFCS contains both glucose and fructose so its better choice in larger amounts than pure fructose.
"HFCS 55 (mostly used in soft drinks), approximately 55% fructose and 42% glucose; and HFCS 42 (used in beverages, processed foods, cereals and baked goods), approximately 42% fructose and 53% glucose.[6][7] HFCS-90, approximately 90% fructose and 10% glucose, is used in small quantities for specialty applications, but primarily is used to blend with HFCS 42 to make HFCS 55" - wikipedia.
So even when consuming ex. two bottles of cough syrup with fructose at 0,137mg/ml it would be only 54,8g of fructose - so its not over liver's capacity especially when spread throughout the day. Drinking three small cans of coke will be more metabolic challenging and damaging to liver than two bottles of cough syrup. Sorbitol even when 200g from two bottles won't be harmful because it will be converted to glucose - if even absorped.
Sucrose - Adds further to your sugar intake and presumably we all already know the risks of consuming too much refined sugar.
Drinking few cans of coke will induce more damage.
Glycerol - Glycerol is technically a sugar alcohol, obtained from fat. It is an irritant to mucous membranes and skin. It is dehydrating and drying. Ever notice your mouth and throat feels dry after using DXM syrup? Too much can cause upset stomach or diarrhea. Some synthetic vegetable glycerins, such as propylene glycol, which is also frequently used in DXM syrup, are associated with severe side effects and high or frequent doses can result in central nervous system disorders, renal failure and even death.
I don't know where you get that information but
glycerol isn't dehydrating instead it is very hydrating. I'm bodybuilder and have used glycerol several times for hydrating purposes (better muscle function). It is very effective plasma expander and it will hydrate your muscles and skin. Your skin will come very smooth, moist and good looking with it. Try it if you dont believe me; it can be found from nutritional supplements used for bodybuilding and other purposes or then pure. I've used pure vegetable glycerin and it works wonders.
"Riedesel et al. (1987) were first to document that ingestion of a glycerol solution can increase the water content of the body. Similar findings have been reported by other researchers (Latzka et al.(1997, Montner et al.(1996), Freund et al.,1995). The gain in body water is typically up to a liter, depending on the amount and timing of the ingestion." When glycerol is ingested, it is absorbed and increases the concentration (technical term: osmolarity or tonicity) of the fluid in the blood and tissues. The concentration of these fluids is held constant by the body, so water consumed with the glycerol is not excreted until the extra glycerol is either removed by the kidneys or broken down by the body (Freund et al., 1995)."
Reference: Robergs, R.A. (1998). Glycerol hyperhydration to beat the heat? Sportscience Training & Technology
http://www.sportsci.org/traintech/glycerol/rar.htm
Also that statement sounds to me really like saying you will get central nervous system disorder or renal failure from drinking couple of beers. Even paracetamol might be more damaging to kidneys when speaking therapeutic doses glycerol found in cough syrup or paracetamol in painkillers as paracetamol is nephrotoxic. When amount of glycerol is not even mentioned in product its propably smaller than amount of other ingredients listed before it. Kidney damage has been caused to rats by injecting 8ml/kg so that would be ex. 800ml for me - allmost liter.
So practically speaking its impossible to cause damage by glycerol from cough syrups.
I agree with you on the harmfullnes of other items you mentioned. Artificial dyes and flavors, preservatives etc. might be harmful. But again I suppose we are getting those same substances from many of foods we are eating everyday.
I hope you people have patience and let objectives and issues argue and fight against each others - not persons. I'm not against anyone here just interested to research and solve matters.
