Drugs and shamanism

[rujex]

I read on bl a lot of references to “shamanism”, when there is talking about drug use, and I really don’t get what people actually want to say.

There is no shamanism in general – it’s just a broad term. There are a lot of different cultures and rituals that don't have necessarily much in common - beside there been drugs involved. It’s like saying that smokers are spiritual people, because some American tribes used tobacco in their rituals.

The Christians use psychotropic substances – wine – in their rituals. Still nobody would say that this would qualify, but depending on the definition, a priest serving wine to the devotees could count as kind of a shaman, too.

Whether called a shaman or not, eventually it’s just a reference to a religious leader and religion don’t necessarily means any good.

E.g. the Mayas, Aztecs, Incas etc. used extensively psychedelic drugs and still did great harm to others and their one. They went to war. They killed and tortured because their religion and religious leaders appreciated it. Most often the visions experienced by the oracles/priests/shamans via drugs were the kickstarter for these cruel events and were used to legitimate all the violence.

 

[Tryptamino]

ehhh, I think if you're drinking ayahuasca you're probably gonna feel a lil bit spiritual and you definitely want a shaman/guide with you. Also, shamans aren't religious leaders, don't know where you got that idea.

 

[rujex]

For me a religious leader is somebody, who kind of connects and guides the devotees to the higher power. If a shaman connects its followers by mediation, drugs or other rituals with the spirits, then its really hard for me to differentiate between them and a religious leader. The shaman guides its followers for a purpose - to connect them with the higher powers. If it would just be kind of a medical service, there wouldn't be any spiritual element involved, but i guess there is.

 

[SirTophamHat]

A shaman is a spiritual healer AFAIK. My dog is a shaman.

Must be why I like being around her so much.

 

[PsychedelicWizard]

Shamans actually commune with the elements (earth, wind, water, and air), as well the spirits of the world itself (animal, vegetable, mineral, and our sentient ancestors).

To the shaman, it is not to heaven they pray and the light (like the Abrahamic religions/white magic teaches), nor to the darkness and hell (like religious Satanists and black magic does), but instead to the very earth itself.

Primitive cultures are strangely all shamanistic across the globe, of every race and culture if you go far enough back, you'll find this to be the case. We just associate them with Natives usually, because of historical ignorance, they are found in all the old cultures from Europe to India.

Shamans also directly deal with altered states of consciousness as the way they learn how to heal and guide people, but unlike say Buddhists who meditate, they do this via what we now would call drugs. Again, because they learn from the earth itself, they use plants to learn and guide them, as these come from the earth. To the shaman, it is not a religious book they would go to learn spiritual truth, these plant-based drugs are actually considered as books to the shaman, teaching us lessons about the soul and life purpose, as well as healing the body, mind, and spirit.

I argue that every drug user is unknowingly learning the ways of their ancient ancestors through their drug use, as the shamans believed that the collective knowledge of your every ancestor is stored in the earth, and is accessed through drugs.

 

[pinpoint]

^ Hahah all this bullshit, a shaman is just some dude that likes to trip balls

 

[4meSM]

^not really, a shaman doesn't take psychedelics just to get fucked up or "trip balls", they actually had a very important role in the past.
Today shamanism is seen by our society as something unnecessary or even crazy and degrading, sadly a lot of their knowledge has been ignored and lost.

 

[SirTophamHat]

Well said 4me. We will never know the knowledge we've lost since it isn't here anymore to begin with. Really tragic if you think about it.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

A friend of mine who is no longer alive was a shaman but he had lived and studied with a tribe of people in either Peru or Brasil, had taken Ayahuasca and other plant teachers in ceremonies, and eventually led those ceremonies. He was against Ayahuasca tourism, and said how most westerners or people who just want to trip or get high on Ayahuasca and other plants or fungi should not be taking them. He did not like the McKennas, or others who completely ignored centuries of ceremony, tradition, and who just wanted to capitalize on Ayahuasca tourism.

 

[Voyager3]

I suspect there is much stuff long forgotten, maybe going back to the Stone Age, which can and is being redicovered right now - as well as a load of new stuff, thanks to 'new' drugs which don't occur naturally. Even so, I don't think drugs alone can 'open portals' or allow communication with Spirit - they can however open the mind, and show hints of what might be possible in altered states. Tripping for fun is fine, hopefully very exciting, interesting and euphoric... or sometimes creepy, frightening and utterly weird - or a combination of all those together in one experience. That's what psychedelic trips are - experiences, and that involves an element of 'learning', like it or not. The old expression 'mind expanding' seems to have gone out of fashion nowadays, but I reckon it was and still is highly appropriate and descriptive. Surely expanding the mind is a worthy and life enhancing experience?


There are of course a few risks involved, though with care and thought, no permanent harm should result. A 'trip' is just a trip, and your return ticket is assured with drugswithin days or even hours? That isn't to say that your mind might be altered and opened permanently by such experiences - mine has been a few times, luckily always for the better. One vital thing to take with you in your 'travel bag', wherever your trip takes you, is some reminder that it is 'only the drugs', and whatever happens, good or bad, it will be over in a short while - even if you have no memory of what 'normal' was.


Shamanism involves a great deal of hard work without the aid of drugs, as well as any temporary hints and tips given by them. Whether you 'believe' in it or not, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as 'rubbish' or fantasy!

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

I suspect there is much stuff long forgotten, maybe going back to the Stone Age, which can and is being redicovered right now - as well as a load of new stuff, thanks to 'new' drugs which don't occur naturally. Even so, I don't think drugs alone can 'open portals' or allow communication with Spirit - they can however open the mind, and show hints of what might be possible in altered states. Tripping for fun is fine, hopefully very exciting, interesting and euphoric... or sometimes creepy, frightening and utterly weird - or a combination of all those together in one experience. That's what psychedelic trips are - experiences, and that involves an element of 'learning', like it or not. The old expression 'mind expanding' seems to have gone out of fashion nowadays, but I reckon it was and still is highly appropriate and descriptive. Surely expanding the mind is a worthy and life enhancing experience?


There are of course a few risks involved, though with care and thought, no permanent harm should result. A 'trip' is just a trip, and your return ticket is assured with drugswithin days or even hours? That isn't to say that your mind might be altered and opened permanently by such experiences - mine has been a few times, luckily always for the better. One vital thing to take with you in your 'travel bag', wherever your trip takes you, is some reminder that it is 'only the drugs', and whatever happens, good or bad, it will be over in a short while - even if you have no memory of what 'normal' was.


Shamanism involves a great deal of hard work without the aid of drugs, as well as any temporary hints and tips given by them. Whether you 'believe' in it or not, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as 'rubbish' or fantasy!

Well said.

 

[Jabberwocky]

In addition to what's been mentioned, Shamans are healers with extensive knowledge of plant medicines. Shamans must acquire direct experiential knowledge through consumption and intense meditation. Contrast this to western medicine where we look it up in a book. A Shaman must experience the healing properties himself so that he can heal others. Shamans acquire their knowledge in a different way than we're used to and it's valid. Saying a Shaman is a guy who just likes to trip balls is missing the point

 

[Voyager3]

In addition to what's been mentioned, Shamans are healers with extensive knowledge of plant medicines. Shamans must acquire direct experiential knowledge through consumption and intense meditation. Contrast this to western medicine where we look it up in a book. A Shaman must experience the healing properties himself so that he can heal others. Shamans acquire their knowledge in a different way than we're used to and it's valid. Saying a Shaman is a guy who just likes to trip balls is missing the point

Well said there! From what little I know, any such 'tripping' is usually more of an ordeal, or grim initiation ritual - not entertainment or fun, quite the opposite!

 

[Jabberwocky]

thanks voyager3, I confess I felt a calling to Shamanism, but I couldn't make it fit in my life. I was too attached to my life to make the leap but it started happening to me. I've read a lot of accounts about Shamans and one of my favorite was "Amazon Magic: The Life Story of Ayahuasquero & Shaman Don Agustin Rivas Vasquez" I think it addresses with great humility the path a person takes to become one. Recommended read for anyone who wants to learn about Shaminism in a more modern world.

 

[laugh]

they are like drug fucked wizards iirc

 

[Jabberwocky]

I liked your reason for the edit best. "Wizards that didn't hang up the phone" lol! That's exactly it. At least I love it. "If you get the message, hang up the phone" — Alan Watts.

 

[Voyager3]

thanks voyager3, I confess I felt a calling to Shamanism, but I couldn't make it fit in my life. I was too attached to my life to make the leap but it started happening to me. I've read a lot of accounts about Shamans and one of my favorite was "Amazon Magic: The Life Story of Ayahuasquero & Shaman Don Agustin Rivas Vasquez" I think it addresses with great humility the path a person takes to become one. Recommended read for anyone who wants to learn about Shaminism in a more modern world.

Hello LevelsBeyond - I like that name! I have no idea about 'being called' to Shamanism? I have only ever met a couple, and they were just very ordinary people, albeit unusually interesting and likeable. I don't think you have to abandon your 'prevoius life' as it were, merely add something to it. Something very significant and powerful, so it no doubt has some effects on your life, but I'd guess only good ones? That's one I shall have to read: I am rather lazy, and struggled through Carlos Castaneda with difficulty, could well be time for a challenge!

As you obviously know, and I at least realise, Shamanism is a very serious step to consider taking, and an awful lot more than just tripping in the jungle a few times! Any tourists and travellers tempted to try such a route will only be somewhat disappointed 'day trippers' at very best, I think? No harm in that I suppose, and I hope some enjoyment and open mindedness might follow, which can be no bad thing?

It never ceases to fascinate me how many of us yearn for 'altered states' and sprititual enlightenment - and hopefully bothe at the same time? It rarely happens I'm afraid, I have been lucky to experience it only twice... so far! Good to see (IMHO) that the desire for this, even in this ever more materialistic world, is still there - as it always has been. God and gods bless you all I say!XXXXX

 

[PsychedelicWizard]

A friend of mine who is no longer alive was a shaman but he had lived and studied with a tribe of people in either Peru or Brasil, had taken Ayahuasca and other plant teachers in ceremonies, and eventually led those ceremonies. He was against Ayahuasca tourism, and said how most westerners or people who just want to trip or get high on Ayahuasca and other plants or fungi should not be taking them. He did not like the McKennas, or others who completely ignored centuries of ceremony, tradition, and who just wanted to capitalize on Ayahuasca tourism.

Sounds like prejduice on the part of the shaman. His culture or people have no right to claim the benefits of a plant they neither created nor deserve any kind of say on how it is to be used.

The plant predates those people, they just happened to stumble across it first. Also, a shaman such as I, who was of an evolved soulular level, would tell you that anyone who consumes said plants, regardless of their beliefs or intent, will be initiated into a new aspect of consciousness, no matter how they react or what they say. Your late friend reminds me of a Christian who is afraid of Muslims taking over, which really only demonstrates their own lack of faith in their God, much as that shaman demonstrated a lack of faith in the plants themselves.

All the same, not an attack, I can understand frustration with being abused or mistreated, and respect the anger at it, but on an even higher level of consciousness, one would argue that the person was seeking the drug not to get high, but to experience what their soul wanted to experience, alas, the Ego would tell them and others a different story, and even shamans and priests have Egos.

I was a shaman in a past life, although in this life I look far beyond the concepts of "nature", far beyond the notions of light and darkness, even beyond the realm of scientific exploration of the stars and other planets, no, I look to the highest, the only, the true final frontier; the consciousness itself, that which the is the observer of all reality to exist.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don't think you have to abandon your 'previous life' as it were, merely add something to it.

Yeah, I've always wondered what a western shaman looks like. I would have liked to spend some time studying with a traditional shaman, but ultimately I didn't see myself living in the Amazon or trying to recreate the role of a traditional shaman in the west. I wanted to be a facilitator for healing spiritual experiences, which we all need in our live, more so in the west. Alexander Shulgin had all the characteristics of a western shaman. I found myself helping people get through some difficult situations and when I tripped with them my focus was able to elevate their own focus and allow them to go deeper. One person claims I helped him get over his panic attacks. I rarely tripped with others however. Anyways, it was all new to me and I started tripping with that focus, reading everything I came across, keeping an experiential diary and doing all kinds of practices. When I started to hint to those around me that this might be my path instead of the all the schooling I had gone through up to that point and the promise of a good career, they rejected it. I wasn't strong enough then and now to take a difficult step like that without the support of the people I love and in the face of all the support they gave me. My brother went so far as to throw away a large part of my collection of substances. That rejection of what I saw happening in my life was painful and it leaked into my subsequent experiences and I got half-assed about it. I can't say my life was ordinary at the time. I had free-roam on a private piece of land. Nightly camp fires and always pursuing practices that would look weird to someone looking in. That said, people didn't know that when I was about in the world. I dressed normally, talked normally and respected peoples boundaries. So anyways, I'm not gonna take a high and mighty attitude, it was both ordinary and extraordinary, but ultimately felt like just another path a person with a calling can take with their lives.

 

[pinpoint]

I was completely joking when I said that a shaman is some dude that just likes to trip balls - sarcasm doesn't translate onto my keyboard sometimes.