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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Do you think one could sue the NHS for making them an addict?

ChemicallyEnhanced said:
I agree it's terrible HR but for me you just can't beat that benzo/opioid mix. Warm, tranquil euphoria. And if you have anxiety the anxiolysis alone is heaven.
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Absolutely. The opiates make you forget all your problems and make you at peace while the benzos just remove all anxiety from everything and increase ya nod. Very bad HR but very good euphoria.
 
and imagine what that kind of thing would, carried to its logical extent, do to people who need pain relief in hospital and outpatient as well. The doctors probably chose chlordiazepoxide as it is apparently the least addictive benzodiazepine. What the litigation culture in the United States is doing to medicine and allied professions is not something one wants to kickstart elsewhere. Physical dependence is one thing, but the allegation that doctors addict a bunch of people is unfounded. It is their job to stop pain, especially in hospital, and if the outpatient iatrogenic narcotic addiction rate is 1 in 150 or lower or even 1 in 63, it should be lower in hospital, mutatis mutandis. The most execrable lie is that a large percentage of problem opioid use and serious habituation start with a narcotic script -- well, so did the unaddicted lives of a similar percentage of the public.
 
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While they are responsible for part the addiction, as they have introduced you to the substance its not the NHS 's fault you used up all your meds too quick and went and scored some dope?
its not there intention to get you hooked, their there to treat pain and illness.

its like trying to sue my bank because they let me spend all my money on drugs, my bank manager is such a dick like that
 
if you read the leaflet after receiving your medication, you will see that it is said multiple times that the substance causes dependence.
 
Things went pear-shaped because of the economic and legal factors associated with prohibition of drugs, and it has nothing to do with the drugs themselves. I have been on narcotics for a good fraction of a century and spent a protracted period getting "all that addictive shit" in astronomical quantities, and all through it have had the eyes of addiction experts on my case both from the doctors doing their due diligence and me doing mine and comparing notes every six months or so with several AODA experts amongst family, friends, and associates . . . I didn't get addicted according to the experts. At my original suggestion, I have a session with a psychologist every 18-24 months specifically to ensure I am not going off of the rails, and she reads my file and we discuss narcotics and I for about 90 to 240 seconds and spend the rest of the hour discussing medical journal articles and philosophy

Psychological, inherited, and endocrine and metabolic factors and attitude and medical and pharmacology knowledge caused that outcome -- a person getting it for pain has processes in their body working against problem use. Not to say that a lot of people don't try to overwhelm or disregard them because they think narcotics are a good kick and haven't done their homework.

I even used to take days off to head off constipation and having to shit a pineapple and only stopped when my cardiologist and GP said that was a no-no as I have a bad heart. No trouble at all when I did it, and I would go up to 72 hours so that my next dose would hit me twice as hard. Clonidine, hydroxyzine, and a set-up of meprobamate and methylphenidate plus a little codeine and some reds at bed time usually did the trick. When they pain would come back, on one occasion I was curled in a ball on a landing on some stairs and a member of the staff had to shoot hydromorphinol right in the jugular and have me eat some nitrazepam whilst they got a dantrolene-ketorolac-bupivacaine-hydromorphinol shot ready to shoot into my back and arse cheek.

I have a king-hell physical habit and oil-burner tolerance but that is not addiction. I also used to be given dozens of times as much and I'm still here. At one point the doctors snapped off the leash altogether and I could pretty much have all the nicomorphine, hydromorphinol, dihydromorphine, hydromorphone, morphine, Scophedal, ketobemidone, piritramide and/or dextromoramide I wanted not to mention the weaker stuff and downers, catabolic steroids and anything else which helped. My periodic Taking Care of Business consisted merely of monthly doctor appointments, meeting with people from the Ministry of Health (BMG) and the local versions of the National Institutes of Health and Board of Health every year or so and co-ordinating with the head of a regular apotheke two doors down from where I lived and a special pain pharmacy near the Allgemeine Krankenhaus and their dispensary about once a year, and going to pick up my drugs every three to nine days -- during those years, the spectre of true, full blown addiction came and went without so much as a peep.
 
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^^^^ I have no idea what your post is about....YOu took industrial quantities of multiple drugs many of which do the same thing e.g. all the opiate/oids for years but you didn't get addicted but you did have a habit, and you had meetings with a ministry...im confused as to the purpose/point of your post.
 
blondin said:
^^^^ I have no idea what your post is about....YOu took industrial quantities of multiple drugs many of which do the same thing e.g. all the opiate/oids for years but you didn't get addicted but you did have a habit, and you had meetings with a ministry...im confused as to the purpose/point of your post.
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To recapitulate -- the people in hospital and doctors doing their job and relieving pain did not turn the OP into an addict -- apparently the procurement issue after he was no longer being medicated by the doctor caused him to become a visible addict and get in trouble with it. If he were still being maintained by his doctor on the same medications, he could live a normal life and maybe add some time on to his lifespan if he is in reasonably good health.

By what the OP said, he is conflating physical dependence, which is an acquired metabolic imbalance unavoidable with protracted narcotic therapy, with full-blown addiction, which requires psychological dependence and self-destructive actions to meet the traditional definition.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, and not only do the vast majority of people who get narcotics medically not turn into addicts., but even in situations which would curl the hair of current day rehab gangsters.
 
'a person getting it for pain has processes in their body working against problem use'

Pretty sure not an insignificant number of addicts started from a point of needing medications for pain. Not sure exactly what pain mechanisms prevent/ inhibit addiction or dependence, but I imagine you have your sources. Just as being a drug user or drug dependent doesn't mean you don't have legitimate issues, having pain and chronic issues doesn't mean you can't be a legitimate drug addict. The general you, not the specific you of course. I certainly can individuals not having issues with addiction while being exposed to massive amounts of drugs, but practical guidelines for a general population may differ. A sizable minority with significant harms has weight. Can't hear from the dead ODs themselves, also. I know it is difficult when people have very damning health conditions.

Drugs were addictive before they were prohibited- that's why many drugs were banned and regulated, in an attempt to limit some of the effects and deaths. Look at some of the history of initial and international drug control efforts. Now whether the regulation and bans were actually effective (not) and are the appropriate solution to drug addiction (likely not, as they are), doesn't mean that drugs aren't addictive. Certainly legal and economic issues stemming from prohibition are a major issue and have exacerbated the problems.

There is an argument (not sure that I fully agree with it, but it is interesting) that Prohibition in the US was actually successful in cutting down the overall population harms in alcohol use and changing habits of use. Even though it was repealed it generated some change and brought awareness. I digress with these tangents.

Delineating physical and psychological dependence and addiction in humans in realistic clinical situations still appears to be an inexact science and prominent area of research (as the experts would certainly attest to, so they get their funding for more research...). What qualifies for self-destruction or impact can be tricky to judge in determining what would be possible with or without drugs and conditions as they are. Especially with reported measures and patient-driven accountability.


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Substance Use and Associated Health Conditions throughout the Lifespan

A life stage perspective is necessary for development of age-appropriate strategies to address substance use disorders (SUDs) and related health conditions in order to produce better overall health and well-being. The current review evaluated the literature ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




www.drugabuse.gov

Substance Use Disorders Are Associated With Major Medical Illnesses and Mortality Risk in a Large Integrated Health Care System

Strong associations exist between substance use disorder diagnoses and 19 major medical illnesses among patients in a large, integrated health care system. The study indicates that these associations may persist even in health care systems that provide specialized treatment for substance use...
www.drugabuse.gov www.drugabuse.gov

Not a great journal


As for the topic- receiving those drugs at high doses for a 10-week stay for pancreatitis seems within medical scope, and there would be significant harm in not treating such a condition appropriately (say, in fear of causing addiction or dependence.) I worked and work for health systems with orthos, rheums, and pain management practices that had a few lawsuits (America, of course) along those lines. [Not directly involved, I must say, though they were certainly a topic.] Generally it is a difficult bar to pass for a lawsuit with legitimate medical reasons with or without a history of substance abuse, barring other incidents. I want to ask my health lawyer friend about it actually. Now some PCPs/GPs/Psychs have gotten in trouble for overprescribing, but 360 oxy 30s with 120 somas and some valium for an initial back strain (m54.5) might not fly anymore. Standards of physician education and drug awareness have changed since even 5 years ago, so the bar has changed.

Now if you got those drugs for your wisdom tooth and were encouraged to take it with refills (somehow) when they knew of your addiction and put you in a compromising situation, that might be a little different, haha

Edit: I apologize for the American side in EADD, I misread the forum but I'll leave it up there.
 
Fuck me in a matter of days, Limp Wristed has been reborn with two other profiles who spout word after word without actually saying anything of substance.
 
On the one hand there was a statistically significant drop in tuberculosis during US alcohol prohibition -- this is a common feature of literature and speeches of the Prohibition Party there and I believe it even got its own chapter in the book Prohibition: The Lie of the Land . . . on the other hand, the Federales assured that booze on the black market contained things like methanol, strychnine, oleander and shit, leading 10k of their own citizens to check into the Wooden Waldorf prematurely.

Just like the studies about drinking and tobacco smoking by those with schizophrenia, when one adds depression and anxiety to untreated pain, and consider what is being done by throwing patients off of chronic pain treatment, I would not be shocked to find out that more than half of unsupervised opioid users are self medicating (and the rest are treating opioid dependence -- a medical diagnosis itself) I have had to talk multiple chronic pain people in the United States into refraining from buying smack on the street, or at least get a comprehensive reagent testing kit or hook up* with someone who can get time on a GC/MS apparatus.

Not only is a partial physiological basis suspected for what in truth is a vanishingly small addiction rate for compliant patients not cut off by doctors afraid of the jackbooted thugs, but I believe more research should be done on the impact of cortisol and stress hormones in this. Also consider that many, many people report bad experiences with their first narcotic experience and often there is not a second. The main effects will be nausea, itching, and headache in those cases; they probably result from having no pain present and not having either a pre-existing personality like one is on narcotics all the time (thus the euphoria is nice but subtle) or the opposite (a very profound change is the potential hook) Maybe it is other drugs present. If one has that experience and is on a dozen other drugs, please don't blame the narcotics.

Maybe a common view, but most assuredly not Politically Correct
If it's not one thing, it's another
It is not heresy, and I will not recant. As Chancellor Dollfuß told Hitler in 1933, that is my two gröschen and funk anybody who doesn't like it
---
* I guess hook up means more than one thing. When I asked a young lady when we should organise our next political meeting by saying "Shall we hook up on Wednesday night?" I am very glad that I didn't discover this by being slapped and all the draconian stuff going on now -- actually it was a look of pleasant surprise on her face and both definitions were fulfilled.
 
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Nicomorphinist said:
To recapitulate -- the people in hospital and doctors doing their job and relieving pain did not turn the OP into an addict -- apparently the procurement issue after he was no longer being medicated by the doctor caused him to become a visible addict and get in trouble with it. If he were still being maintained by his doctor on the same medications, he could live a normal life and maybe add some time on to his lifespan if he is in reasonably good health.

By what the OP said, he is conflating physical dependence, which is an acquired metabolic imbalance unavoidable with protracted narcotic therapy, with full-blown addiction, which requires psychological dependence and self-destructive actions to meet the traditional definition.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, and not only do the vast majority of people who get narcotics medically not turn into addicts., but even in situations which would curl the hair of current day rehab gangsters.
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Aren't you the OP? - I have no idea what the fuck your on about. Are you bonkers?
 
I saw the words 'As Chancellor Dollfuß told Hitler in 1933'
and thought id give that post a miss , my head hurts enough as it is
 
pinkpapaver said:
I do like to hold the BBC just say no campaign and zammo mcguire as well as the government backed heroin screws you up business for advertising the stuff and making me so aware of it, piquing my interest so they say. I seriously believe there was, an element of a marketing campaign about it all. And as we know it's the government allow the shipments in. Goes with a remark or observation in skag boys, where he says it was some coincidence the cheap pai stani brown flooded UK streets at the same time as all the mass unemployment. I'd link to the ra as well (not raas) as I'm certain they were a construct at thd highest shadowy level, stretching way back to irb days. But this is the random connections go on in this head. No wonder I sought a mind relaxer with a head like this, especially having been thru thd terrible comprehensive school system. What a homecoming always back to bl. Been shimmy ing into some woman's mad political blog. There's a poisonous bunch of people the active political types. They are so serious and aggressive "passionate" about this bumph. They speak in all they're own terms, vague meaningless incoherent big words and acronyms... Calling themselves working class, etc etc, nope. The real working class too busy working to participate in the tripe and conferences. There's no lightness about them at all. I thi k maybe tories have more fi un at parties than the lefts do.
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Missed this post- The heroin 'epidemic' began when the Shah or Iran was deposed and the Ayatolla was installed. All the Iranians who had money cashed out and brought over the most valuable by volume in this case gold and heroin 1979-1984 or so, the number of addicts soared and the gear was unbashed (at the start anyway). I do remember a large piece of graffiti close to Whitehall which somehow managed to stay up for at least a year and said 'Maggies cure for unemployment-cheap heroin'
 
blondin said:
Missed this post- The heroin 'epidemic' began when the Shah or Iran was deposed and the Ayatolla was installed. All the Iranians who had money cashed out and brought over the most valuable by volume in this case gold and heroin 1979-1984 or so, the number of addicts soared and the gear was unbashed (at the start anyway). I do remember a large piece of graffiti close to Whitehall which somehow managed to stay up for at least a year and said 'Maggies cure for unemployment-cheap heroin'
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This I know to be true, and I think that the demand called forth supply from Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, the reason being the end of the Viet Nam War in 1975, and that pipeline of O and smack was cut off.

I think it was 2006 or so when purity of retail smack in North America, South America, and Europe hit a record of 85 per cent in some cases, and as the price was so low that now chronic pain patients are attracted to the smack market, Given the poison dope on the streets in North America, I try to talk them out it, of course. Or, maybe more productively for the pain patients, get as many different reagent test as they can find, and learn to use them.

When I look at the figures on Afghan opium production I still cannot figure where it all goes to make dealers and wholesalers play with fentanils and other stuff that in the US and Canada .. . . is the United Nations or another multi-lateral motley crew of nations and NGOs actually hoarding the stuff?
 
Nicomorphinist said:
When I look at the figures on Afghan opium production I still cannot figure where it all goes to make dealers and wholesalers play with fentanils and other stuff that in the US and Canada .. . . is the United Nations or another multi-lateral motley crew of nations and NGOs actually hoarding the stuff?
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Very little Afghan heroin reaches the US, like insignificant amounts. Most Afghan heroin goes to Russia and western Europe. There's a specatular HIV/AIDS crisis in Russia that has spilt over from just drug addicts and gays into the general population, between 1-2% of the population of Russia has HIV, most don't know and aren't being treated. Shows the importance of OST, needle exchange, harm reduction and treating everyone like human beings
 
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